posted
You might be interested in listening on-line to my sermon which I preached at the New Haven, Michigan, Seventh-day Adventist Church on May 1 of this year (2010). It sets forth my recent findings concerning the prophecies of the seven seals, applied to history after 1844, which allow us to see where we are today in the divine sequence of events.
Many Christians and especially most Seventh-day Adventists recognize that the event portrayed in Revelation chapter five is the Investigative, pre-Advent Judgment, the same one portrayed in Daniel chapter 7:9-14. That passage in Daniel explicitly says it is the Judgment, and the context clearly indicates that it comes before the Second Coming of Christ. But if we admit that Revelation five portrays the Judgment, then it is logically inescapable that the prophecies of the seven seals must transpire during the Judgment, since this is when the seals of the book featured in that chapter are said to be opened.
In the interpretation of Bible prophecy, we must ever keep in mind the strict admonition of 2 Peter 1:20, 21: “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” (NKJV)
In order to avoid a private interpretation, we must do three reasonable things. First, all prophetic symbols must be defined by Scripture alone. We can do this, because the prophets “spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” Thus prophecies written a thousand years apart in different languages, can still be relied upon to be consistent in the meaning of the symbols used. This is one of the strongest evidences for the divine inspiration of the Bible, that this works! One Divine Mind is in evidence over all. An example of the way prophetic symbols are defined in Scripture is seen in Revelation 17:15.
Second, the prophecies must be applied to history, during the time periods context indicates to us that they apply. This is seen in the prophecies of Daniel (see for example Daniel 8:20-26). Also in Revelation five, the context is the Judgment. This indicates to us when the prophecies of the seven seals must be applied by comparison to history.
Third, we must be reasonable in understanding whether something is literal narrative, or symbolic. One of the most simple methods of doing this is to ask ourselves if what is described CAN reasonably be literal. If most likely not, then we should expect it to be figurative and symbolic. Since the book of Revelation is apocalyptic prophecy, we should expect that most of it is symbolic.
Of course, there are very compelling Scriptural reasons for believing that Revelation five depicts the Judgment.
Clearly judicial statements are made that an investigation is being made to find someone who is worthy: "Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?" (v. 2); and then that "no man was FOUND worthy" (vs. 3-4). Then the Lamb is FOUND to be worthy: "behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof....Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof" (vs. 5, 9). And as a result of the Lamb being found worthy to open the book, the four beasts and 24 elders sing a song of praise to the Lamb for saving mankind: "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed…." (v. 9). Also as a result of the Lamb being found worthy, It is declared: "Thou art worthy to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing" (v. 12). Compare this to Daniel 7:14: "And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom...." This came as a result of the Judgment, when "the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days" (Daniel 7:13).
Comparison with the text of Revelation five and Daniel 7:9-14 shows many parallels:
Other thrones are mentioned besides God's throne. Compare Daniel 7:9 with Revelation 4:4.
The Son of Man (the Lamb) receives dominion and a kingdom: Revelation 5:9-13; compare Daniel 7:13, 14.
The people of God are said to be saved in His kingdom as a result: Revelation 5:9, 10; compare Daniel 7:27.
A book or books are mentioned, which need to be opened and consulted: Revelation 5:1-5, 7-9; compare Daniel 7:10. Revelation five focuses on one particular book which needs to be opened but cannot be opened, unless someone worthy to open it can be found.
It is also worth noting that a unique description of the number of angels serving before the throne of God is found in both chapters: "...and the number of them [angels] was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands." (Revelation 5:11.) Compare Daniel 7:10: "thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the Judgment was set, and the books were opened." Modern translations render this "myriads upon myriads," or "myriads of myriads," instead of "ten thousand times ten thousand." But still, these similar formulations are only found in Revelation 5:11 and in Daniel 7:10, and no where else in all of Scripture.
As for the date in history when the Judgment began, this we can see from the prophecies of Daniel 8:14 and 9:25. Daniel 8:14 gives us the longest time prophecy in the Bible—2300 prophetic days, which signify 2300 literal years. Since Daniel fainted before the prophecy could be completed, an angel was sent later to explain the starting point for the time prophecy. History reveals to us that in the Autumn of 457 B.C., Ezra arrived in the land of Judah with the document from King Artaxerxes and then published throughout the land the commandment it contained to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem, as stipulated in Daniel 9:25. From 457 B.C., 2300 years takes us to 1844 A.D. (Remember, there was no year zero—1 B.C. was followed by 1 A.D.) This same time prophecy in Daniel is important, because it specifies the time when Jesus was to be anointed for His ministry, and when three and a half years later, He would be “cut off, but not for Himself” (v. 26), and in doing so would end any more need for the sacrifices of the Hebrew sanctuary (v. 27).
In the Hebrew sanctuary services, the “cleansing of the sanctuary” was the Day of Judgment. Thus Daniel 8:14 sets the time for the beginning of the Judgment, and Daniel 9:25 gives us the date where we start counting.
One of the strongest evidences for faith, and for our confidence in the Bible as the Word of God, is the perfect reliability of all Bible prophecy. As the prophet declared: “Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, `My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,' Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.” (Isaiah 46:9-11; NKJV)
One of the last divine warning messages to all the earth begins in Revelation 14:6, 7 with the words: “Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth--to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people--saying with a loud voice, ‘Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.’” Here the “everlasting gospel” is equated with the proclamation that “the hour of His judgment has come.”
Indeed, Revelation chapter five does show us that the Judgment is the “good news” of the gospel for those who have faith in God, because there we see that Jesus, the Son of God and Son of Man—called in this chapter “the Lamb”—stands for us in Judgment. He does this not merely as an Advocate by our side. He stands in our place! His worthiness is counted as our worthiness. His works of faith, become for us the pure and perfect robe of the saints, by which we are judged worthy of reward, because He has become the new Head and Representative of our race, the New Adam, in whom we all are given new life.
posted
Well, no, it wouldn't. It would still be very dramatically mistaken, to put it mildly, but not spam. I mean, I can't emphasize strongly enough how wrong I think Ron is, and how wrong the search for prophecy is as opposed to simply living the virtues Christ taught - specifically the ones about how to treat our fellow human beings - but it is what he genuinely believes, so far as I can tell. So, it's a marketplace of ideas, let the guy have his shot.
If it's as bad as you suggest, name-calling won't be necessary to show it.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
White Whale, if Orincoro posted a link to some of his music, then discussed it a bit, and then posted a link to where we could buy some of it, nobody would call it spam. (Orincoro, you are the one who does music, right? I know someone posted some beautiful music a while back, I feel like it was you. My apologies if I'm confused.) It isn't spam when Chris Bridges posts a link to one of his articles. It wouldn't be spam if Chris posted a link to a novel he was selling, either.
Now, I suppose you're essentially right; if he wasn't a regular it would be spam. But he is a regular here. So, it's not spam. So there's no point to your post, except to try and put him down.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Meh...it COULD have been spam, but that is a judgement call. I don't think it would have been, but I HAVE seen spam that looked like that.
Ron IS a regular, and we know this is a subject close to his heart, so of course it isn't. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
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Anyone wanna buy my genuine super authentic snake oil? Now only 99.99$ (Canadian) made with real snake oil milked from the most sexy snakes, for us QUALITY is our number one concern if this ad interests you come down to www.SnakeOil.su and make your order within the next 15 minutes you'll get two additional bottles of freshly milked snake oil FREE!
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posted
The book of Revelation is the only book in the Bible we have that directly comes from Jesus "as told to" John. Even the Sermon on the Mount was only a summary from the recollection of a hearer, and not dictated by Jesus.
It is worth noting the first three verses of the book of Revelation:
quote:The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.
Revelation is like the Epistle of Jesus. If He chose to present His information in symbolic form, that was His call, and we should expect that He had a reason, not question its value or whether it should be a part of Scripture. Martin Luther did not at first think the book of James should be in the Bible (because it said things like "faith without works is dead"), but eventually he was honest enough to admit he could not deny the evidence that the book is a legitimate part of New Testament Canon.
Besides since the primary evidence for the divine inspiration of Scripture is its reliable, accurate prophecies, any desire to cast off any of those prophecies would put us on the wrong side, and play into the hands of the enemy.
Blayne, evolution theory is the "snake oil." And multitudes buy it merely because it is fashionable.
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TLDR; what was your conclusion? Can we expect the Rapture to give us some peace and quiet within the next few years?
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Mucus, it is human history and Satan's mechinations in it that are lurid. It is God's reaction to it and His purpose for dealing with it and setting things right that are exciting to read about.
I like what a past pastor of mine liked to say: "The Bible gives me hope. I've read the last chapter, and we win!"
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KoM: Which brings up the question of how one can make money off this. There should be all sorts of insurance-like business opportunities.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: kmbboots: [tiny]...but it's so lurid and exciting! [/tiny]
Exactly. So much more appealing than boring old stuff like, "Go, sell what you have, and give to (the) poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me", or, "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you."
You know, the parts where we are told to do something.
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quote:Go, sell what you have, and give to (the) poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me"
And yet unaccountably you seem to be posting this from a computer which you have, presumably, not sold, using an Internet account whose monthly cost you have not given to the poor.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Some have managed to follow the words of Jesus just about perfectly, most not so much, myself only poorly. Still, I think it more important to work on that than on worrying about the precise number of thrones and trumpets.
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Thereby demonstrating that the labourer is not worth her hire.
quote:myself only poorly
Well then, let me offer you an opportunity to improve. I will ask of you, and we'll see if you give or turn away, eh? I'll name a charity; will you give it 100 dollars?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I assume you mean without decreasing from what I give to other charities. Honestly, you are right. I should. It will cause some hardship, but I should.
I'm a little wary of letting you choose the charity, though. I believe the intent was to give to people in need. What did you have in mind?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Thereby demonstrating that the labourer is not worth her hire.
quote:myself only poorly
Well then, let me offer you an opportunity to improve. I will ask of you, and we'll see if you give or turn away, eh? I'll name a charity; will you give it 100 dollars?
I've been trying for a couple of minutes to articulate why this bugs me, KoM, but I can't seem to do it very well. Oh well. Here's the sloppy version.
It's not really nice to butt into other people's finances, and it's inappropriate to come up with this kind of morality challenge. Nobody is accountable to you for how much they donate to the needy.
I'm not normally bothered by the kind of grandiose fantasies you sometimes describe about how you'd improve the world, because they are just fantasies, but this is intruding into someone's actual personal life.
Kate's a really great sport, apparently, and obviously doesn't need anyone to speak up on her behalf, but I just have to tell you. This is creepy.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Thanks, scifibum. I agree in principle but in this particular case KoM is right (whatever his reasons). I do sometimes need a push to step up.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:It's not really nice to butt into other people's finances, and it's inappropriate to come up with this kind of morality challenge. Nobody is accountable to you for how much they donate to the needy.
As the result of my inappropriate actions, money has been transferred from the wealthy West to people in need, and from a credulous theist to an organisation that'll do some actual good with it; additionally, kmb gets to feel holier-than-someone and a good example is set for Ron. If the price of that is me being rude, meh. I'm rude anyway, why not let some good come of it?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Do you think that this particular transaction has had an impact on my holier-than-anybody level?
Do you think that the organisations I already donate to fail to do actual good? What organisations do you suppose those are?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I would suppose that you give a bit to your church, which is actively harmful. As for your holier-than-anyone level: In a word, yes. I do believe that being challenged to live up to your own morality, and responding by putting your money where your mouth is (although, admittedly, we've only your word for this) will buy you some warm that-showed-him fuzzies.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: I would suppose that you give a bit to your church, which is actively harmful. As for your holier-than-anyone level: In a word, yes. I do believe that being challenged to live up to your own morality, and responding by putting your money where your mouth is (although, admittedly, we've only your word for this) will buy you some warm that-showed-him fuzzies.
Which is much more expensive than the very cheap - "that showed her" atheist condescension
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Indeed, that's another cost of religion, your warm fuzzies become that much more expensive. Pascal was a chump.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: One of the most simple methods of doing this is to ask ourselves if what is described CAN reasonably be literal. If most likely not, then we should expect it to be figurative and symbolic. Since the book of Revelation is apocalyptic prophecy, we should expect that most of it is symbolic.
for a uh ... given definition of 'reasonably'
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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kmbboots: don't bother. Last time this topic came up KoM summarily sentenced me to a death camp.
Living up to your moral ideals within your means is not enough, in his eyes. If you cannot attain the stated goal on a level unmatched by any save possibly Jesus himself then you have utterly failed and your morals are bankrupt. And he will continue to hammer you on that fact until you agree that your faith is worthless and harmful or you walk away from him.
On the plus side, good to know I pimp my books here. Now I just need to write one...
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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In no particular order and what I can recall off the top of my head, some recent or recurring donations:
ACLU Doctors Without Borders Catholic Charities - specifically directed toward Haitian relief. NPR American Friends Service Committee My parish's Haitian relief efforts and other outreach programs Equality California
ETA: I should add that none of these were what anyone would call large donations.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I'm happy to exchange Internet status for actual money any day of the week. Consider the harm the Catholic Church might have done with that 100 dollars, or whatever it was. Now it'll be going to a good cause instead. A bit of being shown? Pff. Cheap at twice the price.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: kmbboots: don't bother. Last time this topic came up KoM summarily sentenced me to a death camp.
Piffle. You had a fair trial before a jury of no less than five Atheist Purity Commissioners first. And it took them a good three posts to reach their verdict, too.
quote:Living up to your moral ideals within your means is not enough, in his eyes.
When the ideal is, in fact, to reduce yourself to poverty - that's what the man says, don't blame me - then there is no way to live up to that "within your means".
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I understood that the exercise was intended to push me to give in addition to other donations rather than instead of other donations. No?
Right, but who knows what else might have pushed you to make a donation in addition to your usual habit, and to whom that might have gone?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: I'm happy to exchange Internet status for actual money any day of the week. Consider the harm the Catholic Church might have done with that 100 dollars, or whatever it was. Now it'll be going to a good cause instead.
Or they could have done something good with it. Do you know for a fact that the money would have gone towards causing harm to someone?
I pay fast offerings in my church, and the church uses this money to help struggling families with food and bills. It is used as a temporary helping hand. Those struggling receive help from employment specialists that help them find work, etc. Are you saying my donation to the church is doing more harm than good?
How about the 80,000 pounds of food, tents, lights, tarps, baby supplies, etc that the church had on the way to Haiti before even the US government sent supplies? This did them harm?
Am I misunderstanding you KoM? From your statement I couldn't tell if you were being serious or using humor. The statement looked more like something Orincoro would write. Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
Yes, well? 100 dollars in today's economy is a claim to an amount of power which a rational society would keep well away from crazy people. For 100 dollars you can do things which Alexander the Great couldn't even dream of. That theists routinely have access to this sort of power is, frankly, scary.
As an added bonus, I also derailed the thread from Ron's nutso ramblings. So, y'know, win all around.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
They do a pretty good job of answering that question in their FAQ. Looks like the overhead is paid by the $9 membership fees and other grants.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I understood that the exercise was intended to push me to give in addition to other donations rather than instead of other donations. No?
Right, but who knows what else might have pushed you to make a donation in addition to your usual habit, and to whom that might have gone?
AHA YOU SEE IT ALL FALLS INTO MY UH DESIRES SO IT IS NOT LIKE I JUST GOT SHOWED UP AT ALLPosts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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