posted
Hey. It is good for people to be challenged once in a while. KoM could have picked some charity that I would have had a problem supporting. This one seems to do some good - or at least funnels money to other charities that do good work. If that was his master plan, it was a reasonably benevolent one.
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quote:Originally posted by Geraine: ... How about the 80,000 pounds of food, tents, lights, tarps, baby supplies, etc that the church had on the way to Haiti before even the US government sent supplies?
In all seriousness, this depends actually.
quote: Earthquake-devastated Haitians need donations of cash -- not clothes, food, medicine, or other relief supplies, as well intended as they might be, aid groups said Thursday.
Such "in-kind" donations can at best take up valuable space in cargo shipments and waste aid workers' time in sorting through the items, charities said. At worst, the food or medicine could be unusable or even dangerous.
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Mucus: that's referring to goods given to aid groups to send to Haiti, because aid agencies can do a better job of allocating supplies if they buy them themselves. CRS sent supplies it knew would be needed (and I believe had in pre-prepared caches). Catholic Relief Services is one of the best aid agencies in the world.
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posted
I was responding to Geraine, not kmbboots. I have no idea what denomination Geraine is or how his/her church is organized. (I was assuming that it was a different church due to the phrase "I pay fast offerings in my church", emphasis mine)
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posted
Oh, you're right, I misread. I had thought he was referring to the Catholic church. Yeah, sending goods was explicitly what the aid agencies (including CRS) had asked people not to do (along with going to Haiti to attempt to help out, unless one was a medical professional or had other specialist knowledge being asked for). His church may have had contact with an aid agency that asked for specific goods, though.
(edit: this was written before several of the posts above it)
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"Religion sure is ridiculous. Too many competing ethical standards, and theists are not thought-out enough to live according to them rationally. Anyways, their ethical standards are more about making themselves feel good than they are about morality and truth. Lemme see if I can demonstrate that..."
"Hm...kmb is being a good sport. I don't want to take this too far..."
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quote:I am of the opinion that I did not say this.
I'm of that opinion myself too, actually. I was exaggerating for effect.
But I'm also of the opinion that a person does not have to come right out and say something plainly in order to communicate a given message, either. Such as gloating after someone answers a direct challenge.
quote:"Hm...kmb is being a good sport. I don't want to take this too far..."
Heh, oh yes, Amroth, KoM is certainly full of consideration for the feelings and sentiments of theists, yes?
quote:I thought KoM was trying to make a theist look like a fool.
I am of this opinion. Which is fine, really. But when the effort fails, own up to it and move on, don't gloat about how your cunning manipulation still achieved the desired end.
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posted
Well now, there were two possible outcomes:
Kmb refuses to pay. I gloat at her revealed hypocrisy.
Kmb pays. A charity of my choice gets money, a really annoying theist loses money.
Either way, I win. It's true that I thought the first option more likely than the second; but if you really think I'd rather have a bit of a gloat than extract actual money from theists, money for which they have done real work and which contains true power, well - all I can say is that you're wrong. And yes, I did consider both possibilities before posting my challenge.
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posted
Eh...stop picking on KoM. As I wrote, it was a reasonably benevolent challenge. Had he been trying to be a jackass, he would have made a better job of it.
ETA: He didn't actually do anything to me than I did to Ron. He was just more specific. I think we are both right.
ETA: Giving something is not really the same as losing it.
ETA again: KoM, while rereading I noticed that you noted that we only had my word that I made a donation. You are quite correct. I can at least show you that I became a member. I can either send you a message if you give me your member name, or you can send me a message. My member name is the same as it is here.
posted
We're not picking on KoM. The thing I love about this community is that we're all willing to hold up the mirror of truth for one another.
KoM tries to do it for us - and I think that he could do with a quick gander in the mirror every once in a while.
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posted
Speaking of disaster relief agencies, ever hear of ADRA--Adventist Development and Relief Agency? Or Maranatha Voluteers International?
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You know, this has been eating at me. The image of Jesus as, like, the Michael Bay of prophets really bothers me.
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quote: Either way, I win. It's true that I thought the first option more likely than the second; but if you really think I'd rather have a bit of a gloat than extract actual money from theists, money for which they have done real work and which contains true power, well - all I can say is that you're wrong. And yes, I did consider both possibilities before posting my challenge.
I'm sure you did consider both possibilities. But the one you thought was likely, the one that would serve as evidence for your thesis, isn't the one that happened.
quote:As I wrote, it was a reasonably benevolent challenge.
It was a semi-benevolent challenge. As he said, either he gets to crow over your hypocrisy or, as he sees it, snatch some money from a 'really annoying theist' and give it to someone else. The 'for a good cause' part really does seem pretty secondary as far as motives, at least as far as KoM has explained it.
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quote:I'm sure you did consider both possibilities. But the one you thought was likely, the one that would serve as evidence for your thesis, isn't the one that happened.
Yes, well? I'm a scientist; I hope I can accept the result of an experiment disconfirming my hypothesis as well as the next man.
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quote:...I hope I can accept the result of an experiment disconfirming my hypothesis as well as the next man.
Hope for it all you like, you didn't. Rather an ironic thing to say to you considering your criticism of 'wanting to believe', eh?
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posted
KOM (and others)--speaking of testing hypotheses, has it escaped your notice that the objective methods of interpretation of Bible prophecies I have outlined provide for an outside check? We are told in the Bible text to compare the prophecies to the history of the periods specified.
Scripture is self-consistent. It is a miracle in itself that a document written over the course of 1,500 years and in three different languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek), could have symbolic prophecies that are entirely consistent when interpreted by the same objective methods.
But even more stunning is the fact that Bible prophecy, objectively interpreted according to the methods I have outlined, do match the history of the period we are told to apply it to, and do so perfectly, with no need for fudging anything, and in every specified detail of the prophecy. In the cases of Daniel 2, 7, 8-9, and 11, this includes history over a thousand years in the future, events in 500 A.D. and beyond, foreseen in documents that date back before the time of Christ. How could merely human ability foresee that a fourth world empire would exist after Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece, and that this Roman empire would indeed qualify as "the iron monarchy" of history, and most surprisingly, would not be replaced by another like all the world empires before it, but would be divided into ten parts? And then that three of those divisions would be defeated and uprooted by the others? And that those divisions would grow into the modern nations of Europe, and exist until the end of time? Doesn't that make it of interest to us to see what the prophecies say are about to happen next?
I have merely shown that the same thing is also true of the prophecies of Jesus in the book of Revelation. The prophecies of the seals do forecast events of the past 166 years, interpreted using the same objective methods as are used in interpreting the prophecies of Daniel, and the prophecies do match the history that has transpired so far with profound accuracy. Doesn't that make it of great interest to us to consider the prophesided events that have not transpired yet, but are next on the list?
The value of Bible prophecy is not merely in knowing what will happen in advance; it is in knowing why things happen, what is really going on behind the scenes, and also in demonstrating to us that no matter what men and devils may conspire to do, God will ultimately bring forth out of it the good end that He has purposed. As the Scripture says, "Surely the wrath of man shall praise You; With the remainder of wrath You shall gird Yourself." (Psalms 76:10; NKJV)
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posted
'objective interpretation' in this particular context is just really, really amusing. Especially given your penchant for making completely, unambiguously wrong predictions.
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I think it is silly. I think that your conclusions are a stretch at best. It has no bearing at all on how I relate to God. It has no meaning as far as how I should behave to other people.
It may as well be astrology.
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quote: Scripture is self-consistent. It is a miracle in itself that a document written and re-written over the course of 1,500 years and translated into three different languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek)then translated back, could have symbolic prophecies that are entirely consistent when interpreted by the same objective methods.
Fixed that for you, and italicized just two easily noticed and very striking flaws in your ideas, Ron.
By definition, something symbolic will never be evaluated on a completely objective basis. If it's symbolic, it is fundamentally as much about what you bring to it as it brings to you. The symbol can be either meaningless or badly mistaken if the viewer doesn't have the appropriate context, which in this case is quite often 'already believes it'.
And not only can symbols not be judged strictly on objective grounds, but because we are talking about symbols, they will never, ever be 'entirely consistent'. If they were entirely consistent, they wouldn't be symbols, they would actually be the thing described, with total literal accuracy.
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posted
It is not materially different from astrology.
To say: "just apply my formula to this information set, and you will see that it perfectly predicts this outcome... no fudging!" is laughable. You choose the formula. To say there is "no fudging" ignores the fact that the entire interpretation is one big swatch of fudge. And you do it all backwards, which is what astrologers do. You start with the assumption that the prophecy is correct, then find the way in which that prophecy can be interpreted in order to lie flush with the reality. That's why it's not useful in predicting the future- it's a process that only works if you can connect the reality at hand with your interpretation.
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posted
Also, the people who recorded what we know about the people about whom the prophecy prophesized knew ahead of time what the prophecy said. And had an interest in showing the prophecy fulfilled.
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posted
Ron, I've told you before, you are a filthy liar and I do not intend to communicate with you, with the single exception of arranging, through seconds, a duel.
quote:Hope for it all you like, you didn't.
I must say I do not see how you draw this conclusion. The hypothesis was, "Kmb will not give money to this charity", she did give money to the charity, the hypothesis is disconfirmed.
quote:KoM, out of curiosity, what have I written that would make you form your original hypothesis?
You clearly do not agree with my interpretation of Jesus's words: You have not given away all your worldly goods. Consequently, you presumably believe that you are doing enough - or rather, you believe that there exists an 'enough' which is short of the actual words of the Bible.
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Rakeesh, Ron was accurate to say that the books of the Bible were originally written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. (Some in each, not each book written in all three.) That part of your correction is not correct.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: ... But even more stunning is the fact that Bible prophecy, objectively interpreted according to the methods I have outlined, do match the history of the period we are told to apply it to ...
Yes.
I too find it stunning that an extended period of massaging can result in a happy ending.
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Yes, I know. I should have said 'translated from these' into various languages, including modern versions of those languages, and then translated back again and so on and so forth. I guess it just didn't fit as easily into the quote, though, so I let myself get sloppy. *wince*
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quote:Ron, I've told you before, you are a filthy liar and I do not intend to communicate with you, with the single exception of arranging, through seconds, a duel.
*rolleyes* The best way to ignore someone is to actually ignore them, KoM.
quote:I must say I do not see how you draw this conclusion. The hypothesis was, "Kmb will not give money to this charity", she did give money to the charity, the hypothesis is disconfirmed.
I draw this conclusion because you said, "......I hope I can accept the result of an experiment disconfirming my hypothesis as well as the next man." You didn't actually accept the result very well, certainly not as well as you could have. Crowing about victory in defeat, quite tacky and not very sporting. Definitely not as well as 'the next man' might have done. That's all I meant.
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posted
Interestingly, while the Bible prophecies are indeed true, they were actually written by Loki, and are fulfilled due to his meddling - which will unfortunately lead to Ragnarok.
We'd be much better off if the prophecies aren't fulfilled, since they're a contributing factor to the end of the world and the rise of the giants.
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quote:Crowing about victory in defeat, quite tacky and not very sporting. Definitely not as well as 'the next man' might have done. That's all I meant.
Ok, in the first place, nothing in the canons of science requires me to be gracious about experimental results I don't like. But more importantly, where do you get the conclusion that I was defeated? Ok, a hypothesis was disconfirmed, big deal. In a scenario that's win-win for me, by construction there is no defeat even if the win I get isn't the win I predicted.
Now, if you want to accuse me of being a bad winner, you might have a point. But having lost nothing, I must rather object to being called a bad loser.
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quote:*rolleyes* The best way to ignore someone is to actually ignore them, KoM.
Indeed, but the good old custom of cutting someone dead is not practiced by merely ignoring them. For it to have its proper effect as social sanction, there must be no doubt that you have registered the presence of the offender and are deliberately dropping him from your attention. If I just wanted to ignore people I'd go get some work done.
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quote: You clearly do not agree with my interpretation of Jesus's words: You have not given away all your worldly goods. Consequently, you presumably believe that you are doing enough - or rather, you believe that there exists an 'enough' which is short of the actual words of the Bible.
Bah. The verse you quoted speaks of a specific commandment given to a specific man. There are other places in the gospels where Jesus interacts with wealthy disciples and does not order them to sell everything they have. It's case-by-case, based on what each Christian values more than Christ. Money is probably at the very top of the list, and Christians really should be a lot poorer. But you can't use that one event as a blanket law given to all of Christian-dom.
But, being the judgmental sort that you are, you'll undoubtedly interpret this as an excuse to be stingy.
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quote:*rolleyes* The best way to ignore someone is to actually ignore them, KoM.
Indeed, but the good old custom of cutting someone dead is not practiced by merely ignoring them. For it to have its proper effect as social sanction, there must be no doubt that you have registered the presence of the offender and are deliberately dropping him from your attention. If I just wanted to ignore people I'd go get some work done.
quote:The verse you quoted speaks of a specific commandment given to a specific man.
I quoted nothing. Kmb quoted the verse, approvingly, as something that ought to guide the actions of Christians.
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posted
Guide, yes. Not define. Not serve as the absolute bar one must hit and still consider themselves Christian.
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Sure, Christians can consider the stuff that applies to them as guidelines, and the stuff that applies to others as morally and legally binding Holy Law that must be followed to the letter (of their interpretation).
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Interestingly, while the Bible prophecies are indeed true, they were actually written by Loki, and are fulfilled due to his meddling - which will unfortunately lead to Ragnarok.
Is this before or after Chuck Norris, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, and Raptor Jesus have a battle royale?
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quote:Ok, in the first place, nothing in the canons of science requires me to be gracious about experimental results I don't like. But more importantly, where do you get the conclusion that I was defeated? Ok, a hypothesis was disconfirmed, big deal. In a scenario that's win-win for me, by construction there is no defeat even if the win I get isn't the win I predicted.
Alright, if you're looking at this in strictly scientific method terms, you're quite right. You aren't required to be gracious, though it's sort of implicit that you should be, since part of science is being wrong a lot, so a good scientist ought to become accustomed to it, I would think.
As for the scenario being a win-win, you might as well run a race, finish second place, and say, "Hey, second place is pretty darn good, I haven't lost anything." It's accurate, from a certain outlook...but I don't really think you have that sort of outlook, or at least probably not as regards religion. That's a totally subjective personal interpretation, though.
quote:Indeed, but the good old custom of cutting someone dead is not practiced by merely ignoring them. For it to have its proper effect as social sanction, there must be no doubt that you have registered the presence of the offender and are deliberately dropping him from your attention. If I just wanted to ignore people I'd go get some work done.
Wait, so you think your comments to Ron Lambert serve some sort of 'social sanction' purpose? Really? Because I'll tell you what, it reads a helluva lot more like personal gratification than an effort to better society. Which is fine, just cop to it. Rather like you were insisting kmbboots ought to:)
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