quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Why the heck did she buy a smartphone at all? People over 55 should just buy Jitterbugs.
I don't know, verizon made it cheaper than anything else for an upgrade I think- it was some special offer from costco, and their sales reps are too lazy or incompetent to check that the customer is actually getting something that they need and or want to have.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sterling: For any sort of technical discipline and most especially for computer science, it would be extremely foolish to restrict students to the Macintosh. The very strengths that make the platform more stable are the same ones that make it less flexible, cause it to offer less software (and far less independenly-produced software), and make it harder to access anything on a deeper level either to tinker or to gain a better understanding of how the machine works.
I'm a computer science graduate student right now, and graduated with my BS in Comp. Sci. last year. In my experience, CS (at least as it exists in academia) is moving steadily toward Macs dominating. This is speaking both in terms of incoming students and the professors. There's a good reason for this too. You get UNIX with a better GUI than what Linux has been able to come up with. In terms of independently produced software, I have yet to find any open source software that won't compile and run without issue on my Mac. If I need to run some Windows software (and I don't remember the last time I did), I can run XP in a virtualized system with no problem, I suppose I could also use WiNE if I were so inclined. From a software perspective, if you're comfortable with a terminal, Macs are extremely versatile (and configurable, actually).
It's also worth noting that those who do use PCs in the CS world do most of their work in Linux.
In short, because of the vastly superior selection of open source software and the better terminal environment than Windows, and the larger selection of native commercial software/somewhat more polished GUI than linux make OS X one of the best, and most popular (and steadily growing more popular) platforms for Computer Science. Windows is in a distant third place.
I work in a very large tech company, and I've traveled a lot to quite a few vendors. Everyone uses Windows. First off, all business software is Windows (SAP, Oracle, government, etc) -- sure, Mac versions exist or emulation can be run, but I've never seem a company do it. There's no reason: Windows programs operate natively to Windows, the software coexists with the engineering software (Matlab, NI) and Windows ALWAYS gets the most current updates.
Sure, you have to run Unix servers and Linux emulation (which runs fine on Windows), but compatibility is king.
I laso have a Computer Science degree and I've worked in the IT field since 2001.
I have seen Apple products twice in all that time in the corporate environment, and one of those times was when I was interviewing at a school district. The other was an EXTREMELY SMALL subset of a very large client. We're talking maybe 1/10th of a percent of all their users were on Macs and even they were only on them due to an acquisition.
My clients have included: the US Federal government, the Dept of Defense, two medical labs, 2 credit card companies, an oil company, a hotel, a product testing company, a window and door manufacturer, valve manufacturer, pharmaceutical company, a city government. . . . as you can see I run the gamut.
I've been out of work since January. I've submitted 5+ resumes per day since then. The only place I've ever seen even ASK for Apple experience was that school district. Linux experience is asked for a heckuva lot more than Apple experience is.
I don't really care one way or t'other, I just think it's kind of amusing to hear the Apple-philes predicting their brand's dominance when it flies in the face of reality. Perhaps it will happen someday, but I doubt it will be "soon."
You'll note, if you reread my post, that I'm specifically talking about CS as it exists in higher education. Looking back over the post I suppose I can see how this may not have been entirely clear toward the end of the post. I very much stand by the point I was trying to make that for CS as it exists in higher education, Macs are not only viable but common and (in my personal experience) increasingly preferred. I was specifically referring to the point made in the post I quoted regarding the idea that Macs are somehow significantly inferior choices for CS students.
The work you're likely to be doing as a CS student in higher education if anything favors Macs over Windows machines as there tends to be a lot of open source software, which is generally developed for use on Unix variants. Industry work is another story of course, as Windows simply dominates the market and therefore the customer base, but both this thread and my post are talking about Macs in a university setting, not a corporate one.
Posts: 187 | Registered: Jan 2005
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No you were clear, he just totally ignored the point you were making in order to answer one you weren't. It happens.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Why is it only mac-haters give a crap what kind of computers people are using.
Apparently you have missed the mounds of scorn heaped on PC users over the past couple decades.
For reals. My sister got into macs because her husband liked them and now they are hardcore fans. They talked my dad into using macs and he loves them too now. So much that when they were trying to get laptops for their kids as they went off to college they didn't listen to me at all, and just bought macs all around.
It was mildly amusing for me to have purchased a dell, and over the next five years, watch them all have system crashes and hardware problems while I never dealt with a single issue. I never once rubbed their faces in it, but *every* time they visit and they see my Dell PC in the corner, or when I am tinkering on my ASUS Laptop (thanks for the recommendation Tom I really like it) they never fail to tell me how much my life must suck. It gets tiring.
Really? They all had massive problems did they? Seems everybody has a story to go with their brand of choice. I owned a dell for three years and had to have every single component in it replaced, including the motherboard, twice. I've owned plenty of macs and had fewer problems, not that I never had *any* problems. They are rather complex machines.
Sounds like your problem is with your family, not with their brand of choice. I've dealt with insufferable mac-haters in my family, but I guess because I own a mac, I don't have to go in for the insufferable Mac-owner speeches. Perhaps that's the sticking point- people do leave you alone if they think you already agree with them.
No, I pretty certain I have no problems with my family. I'm sure your Dell did have problems, I don't believe Dell is immune to poor manufacturing practices. I've happened to have good experiences with them so far, and after doing research decided which PCs I wanted to buy.
It just bugs me when Mac owners act like Macs tend to break less or are just higher quality overall, hence the price increase. I like to play games, thankfully the Mac is getting more love in that department. I don't dislike Macs at all. If I was recording music I'd get one. I use their macbooks every time I visit, so I'm pretty comfortable with using them.
I don't hate macs, my family is just so excited with how much they like their computers it's like a person discovering a new religion, thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread, and then going out and acting like everybody else who hasn't found their faith yet must be deficient.
edit: I drive a 2000 VW Passat, but I wouldn't tell anybody it's a must buy, nor would I buy it again if I could go back in time.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Seriously? They're happy with their computers and they want you to be part of their little club. It's all branding- Apple sells products and it sells image. I think the products happen to be pretty good. Perhaps if you liked your Passat a bit more or if it made you feel young again, you would be enthusiastic about the brand and recommend it to your friends. Again, heavens forbid that should ever happen.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Seriously? They're happy with their computers and they want you to be part of their little club. It's all branding- Apple sells products and it sells image. I think the products happen to be pretty good. Perhaps if you liked your Passat a bit more or if it made you feel young again, you would be enthusiastic about the brand and recommend it to your friends. Again, heavens forbid that should ever happen.
I don't get what you are trying to say at the very end.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: No you were clear, he just totally ignored the point you were making in order to answer one you weren't. It happens.
The problem is that educational institutions ARE using Macs and ignoring the fact that business DOESN'T. Sure, a bunch of elitist edu-nazis might be trying to decide that Mac isn't worthless -- but that isn't going to change corporate America.
Posts: 688 | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Herblay: Is there a good reason for the spread of Apples in schools?
It's called marketing. Get over it. Why is it only mac-haters give a crap what kind of computers people are using. I never bitched that I had to use a PC at work. It's so childish.
quote: Just try explaining to my grandfather why he can't run 80% of the software that he wants to on his shiny new Mac.
Something is very amusing about the idea that your grandfather is both a ne'r do well idiot mac owner, and somehow also a power computer user with lots of important programs he needs to be using. Somehow he knows a lot about all those programs he wants, but not a lot about the hardware. That's odd, I think. Funny how I manage to get 100% of the programs I want on my mac... I must only want 20% of all available programs.
No, the problem is that my Grandfather listened to pro-Mac idiots and bought a Mac because "they're better" and "they don't crash". Then he goes down to the little church bookstore and buys software. Surprise, it doesn't work.
G: Why doesn't it work? M: Because you bought a Mac, Grandpa. G: I thought it was supposed to be better! Why won't it run the church programs. M: Most programs don't work on the Mac Grandpa. You have to get the special ones that do. G: Where do I get it? M: They don't make it for Mac. You'll have to run Windows on top of your Mac if you want to run it. G: <Blank stare> <Frustration> But I need it for church?!?!
Posts: 688 | Registered: Nov 2008
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"No, the problem is that my Grandfather listened to pro-Mac idiots and bought a Mac because "they're better" and "they don't crash". Then he goes down to the little church bookstore and buys software. Surprise, it doesn't work.
G: Why doesn't it work? M: Because you bought a Mac, Grandpa. G: I thought it was supposed to be better! Why won't it run the church programs. M: Most programs don't work on the Mac Grandpa. You have to get the special ones that do. G: Where do I get it? M: They don't make it for Mac. You'll have to run Windows on top of your Mac if you want to run it. G: <Blank stare> <Frustration> But I need it for church?!?! "
Well, we all know that Macs and the liberals who use them are anti-religion...
Posts: 571 | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Herblay: No, the problem is that my Grandfather listened to pro-Mac idiots and bought a Mac because "they're better" and "they don't crash". Then he goes down to the little church bookstore and buys software. Surprise, it doesn't work.
Heh, again, a Mac hater story turns into "my granpa is an idiot." You don't think people who don't know anything about computers are capable of screwing up using a PC? Ok, sure. It's completely, but *completely* his fault for not checking on this first. That is not anybody who owns a mac's fault. Not the people who recommended it, not the marketing people, or the people who make it, not the salesman. That's *his* fault. Don't make it something it isn't.
quote:That's what Mac-tards remind me of. Apple's desktop market died with Windows 3.1.
AH, I see, you're just a one-note clown. Never mind.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: No you were clear, he just totally ignored the point you were making in order to answer one you weren't. It happens.
The problem is that educational institutions ARE using Macs and ignoring the fact that business DOESN'T. Sure, a bunch of elitist edu-nazis might be trying to decide that Mac isn't worthless -- but that isn't going to change corporate America.
It happens again and again and again...
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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What would change corporate America: better enterprise-level management tools and server systems. The low level of Macintosh adoption in business has nothing to do with the desktop interface and everything to do with Apple's general failure to address those needs.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Herblay: The more I think about it, the more I liken it to the Betamax. What if one film studio continued to make Betamax movies. Imagine all of the die-hards who would refuse to switch to VHS, then DVD, then Blu-Ray. "Betamax is the future, man".
That's what Mac-tards remind me of. Apple's desktop market died with Windows 3.1.
Referring to Mac users as "Mac-tards," "pro-Mac idiots," and all the other invective you've spewed in this thread is, I think you'll find, an extraordinarily ineffective way to make your point. It's clear that you started this thread with absolutely no intention of having a serious debate, but rather just to have an outlet to vent.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Herblay: The more I think about it, the more I liken it to the Betamax. What if one film studio continued to make Betamax movies. Imagine all of the die-hards who would refuse to switch to VHS, then DVD, then Blu-Ray. "Betamax is the future, man".
That's what Mac-tards remind me of. Apple's desktop market died with Windows 3.1.
Referring to Mac users as "Mac-tards," "pro-Mac idiots," and all the other invective you've spewed in this thread is, I think you'll find, an extraordinarily ineffective way to make your point. It's clear that you started this thread with absolutely no intention of having a serious debate, but rather just to have an outlet to vent.
You're absolutely correct. I felt the need to act childishly because I believed others were behaving childishly. I shouldn't let Orincoro bait me into that trap. He came off looking snarky, I came off like a child.
My only real point is this: in my experience, engineering, business, and the medical professions are 99.99% PC. It is illogical for colleges to teach on Macs.
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: [qb] No, the problem is that my Grandfather listened to pro-Mac idiots and bought a Mac because "they're better" and "they don't crash". Then he goes down to the little church bookstore and buys software. Surprise, it doesn't work.
Heh, again, a Mac hater story turns into "my granpa is an idiot." You don't think people who don't know anything about computers are capable of screwing up using a PC? Ok, sure. It's completely, but *completely* his fault for not checking on this first. That is not anybody who owns a mac's fault. Not the people who recommended it, not the marketing people, or the people who make it, not the salesman. That's *his* fault. Don't make it something it isn't.
Do you seriously believe that? A 70 year old man asks his family what kind of computer he should buy, because he has no clue, and several iPhone toting relatives sell him on the "wonders" of Apple. He only needs it for church stuff and the internet, but he'd like to run the grandkids' games and the software that they carry at the small country bookstore in the town that he lives in.
I acknowledge that your comments got me inflamed. I felt like it was a personal attack on my grandfather for some reason. Maybe because you're the one that called him an idiot. I admit that anyone can screw up a PC, heck even more easily than you can a Mac, but that wasn't my point.
It seems to me that you are oversimplifying the matter, but you're certainly entitled to your opinon.
Either way, we can argue the merits of a Mac until we're blue in the face. I acknowledged that the Mac had a legitimate audience. I just don't think they're for everyone, and that recommending them can cause problems.
I have both a Mac and a PC and enjoy using both for different reasons.
That being said, I don't think Mac desktops will ever be as widely used as PC.
Furthermore, the real question is how long will Apple continue in the desktop market?
With the various specialized devices (smart phones, iPads etc.) solving the computing needs of more and more people, it seems fairly obvious that desktop computers will become less and less important to Apple's business.
I think there will probably still be Apple desktops for enthusiasts in the future, but they will probably be produced in smaller numbers.
Posts: 194 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Herblay: The more I think about it, the more I liken it to the Betamax. What if one film studio continued to make Betamax movies. Imagine all of the die-hards who would refuse to switch to VHS, then DVD, then Blu-Ray. "Betamax is the future, man".
That's what Mac-tards remind me of. Apple's desktop market died with Windows 3.1.
Referring to Mac users as "Mac-tards," "pro-Mac idiots," and all the other invective you've spewed in this thread is, I think you'll find, an extraordinarily ineffective way to make your point. It's clear that you started this thread with absolutely no intention of having a serious debate, but rather just to have an outlet to vent.
You're absolutely correct. I felt the need to act childishly because I believed others were behaving childishly. I shouldn't let Orincoro bait me into that trap. He came off looking snarky, I came off like a child.
My only real point is this: in my experience, engineering, business, and the medical professions are 99.99% PC. It is illogical for colleges to teach on Macs.
Your last sentence assumes that the use of the Mac OS renders a computer user incapable of using any other operating system or learning to do so. It also assumes that college kids haven't seen a computer before going to college, and do not know how to do stuff on Windows, because college taught them the Mac way.
HINT: every single one of the 18 year old kids arriving at your school has probably been the at-home tech support for their parents since the age of eight. People who grew up with computers don't really need to be taught how to use different OSes. They taught themselves by reading the labels on all the buttons and picking the ones that worked.
Also, while (for instance) Office for Macs is slightly different, it still does the exact same thing on the PC version.
It's just old people who can't deal with something that's different that have a problem.
Meanwhile, the university IT department is free to purchase the computers people actually like using. Sorry.
posted
But if you're going to be using it for Linux/Unix anyway, why not use the computer that costs half as much (or less?)
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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Sterling: because there are fewer hardware and technical support issues (have you tried to administer a large number of student-controlled computers before?) and the productivity applications are better, to name a couple reasons.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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How do you know that more colleges use apple over microsoft? For example, my university(carnegie mellon) has far more PCs than macs. Does anyone have specific statistics that indicate colleges use macs much more than PC's, or is that one of those perceptions that may or may not be true in reality?
Posts: 76 | Registered: Aug 2009
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I think the actual statistic (if it's real at all, but I think it is) is not that colleges use more Macs than PCs, but that colleges have a higher percentage of Macs than the general population does.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Is there a good reason for the spread of Apples in schools?
I also go to the University of Utah and while I find that Macs are very prevalent on campus, there are still PCs scattered through the labs here and there. In my experience the reasoning behind the use of Macs ranges from the purely practical to the absurd.
For one, the iMacs on campus take up a lot less space than PCs. The way that the computer center in the Library is set up would be incredibly crowded and complicated by traditional PC towers.
On the other hand, another main reason that the Macs show up on campus has to do with what the administration perceives as cool. Universities work really hard to present an image of modern and hip. The logic seems to go that if the student's think Apple is cool then having Apples on campus will draw students to the college. Marketing also plays a lot into this. Apple wants their products prevalent among their chosen market and makes deals and pitches to University administrators all the time. University administrators, you should understand, are strange creatures that have very little understanding of the modern world and are likely to listen to any sales pitch that gets run past them. Especially if they see the potential of improving the image of the campus (and thus rake in more donations) and if the company making the pitch has loads of cash themselves (make corporation happy=potential future funding). The same could have happened for PCs, with the right marketing campaign.
The other reason I've encountered simply has to do with whether the head of a department is a Mac person or a PC person. If they're a Mac person, then they'll buy Macs when it's time to replace their computers. If they're a PC person then they'll want PCs in their department.
So there you have it, there are some practical concerns, but there are also some ridiculous concerns. Either way, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Use whatever computer you like and don't worry about what anyone thinks.
Posts: 681 | Registered: Feb 2004
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