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Samp. I think you misunderstood. The religious therapy thing? It's not therapy, nor is it my source. It was just a personal experience I drew upon for making the point that interdependence was better than dependence.
Also, so you stop wigging out about ethics - it's more akin to peer mentoring than "religious therapy."
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Armoth: I'm agreeing with rivka in that therapy absolutely isn't an easy way out. Heavens, if there were more qualified therapists and even more people willing to just visit with one a few times, millions of tragedies needn't have happened.
In my church we have bishops who often act as counselors to troubled members, using reason, morals, and even asking God for direct assistance. Done right, it's a beautiful thing. But even that cannot replace a circumstance where a person has deep seeded problems that require extensive work. There are already people who have the knowledge to help you with most any problem, why should religion invoke God's assistance when he already has tools out there willing to help?
When I walked into the door of a therapists office I wasn't totally against it, but I definitely felt like therapy was admitting I was weak and unable to take care of myself. It's a terrible belief that has to be thrown out. We wouldn't call somebody weak just because their immune system fails to kill a virus and they get sick. Why then should we call somebody weak or lazy when a very real mental issue arises and they can't deal with it alone?
A good therapist is a wonderful tool. They don't have any history with you at the start, they know when to listen and when to talk, they say things from a perspective you are not used to and it sheds light in places you just aren't seeing because you don't even know you can't see them.
I hope you never need a therapist, but I mean that in exactly the same way I mean that I hope you never have to visit the doctor because you don't feel well.
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Definitely not just rivka and Samp who feel like that. I know there are at least a dozen other posters on hatrack who have been outspoken beneficiaries of therapy -- and that's just the ones who speak up.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Samp. I think you misunderstood. The religious therapy thing? It's not therapy, nor is it my source. It was just a personal experience I drew upon for making the point that interdependence was better than dependence.
Also, so you stop wigging out about ethics - it's more akin to peer mentoring than "religious therapy."
Call it what you want. It's certainly not professional, either way. And you DO obviously draw upon it when you search for your distaste about therapy, because you consider it an argument on the behalf of therapy in terms of 'dependence.' And, okay. Let's call it 'peer monitoring.' It still sounds horrendously creepy, and none of the 'dependences' you talk about there should be considered standard or remotely appropriate in professional therapy.
Therapy is not supposed to be a dependent relationship. You use the dependence argument to explain your personal distaste of therapy (or, at least, its one of the major themes that comes up in your contempt for therapy). You do not go to therapists for sources for self-esteem. You go to therapists to gain tools to help yourself. Part of therapy can be venting and getting validation, but good therapists guide toward self-help and insight.
Therapists who allow unhealthy dependent relationships form are not good therapists (or advisers).
Conversely, a patient who is not interested in growth will not utilize therapy well.
Therapists provide a space for you to work out problems away from your social life. Some issues can dominate your emotional life, and create stress in your relationships. Sometimes we have a great friend or family member to help us out, but other times we don't. Therapy is time that you set aside for yourself with a professional to improve your life.
Dependent relationships can be created with anybody, not just a therapist. You can start using your friend for a source for self-esteem with much greater ease than a professional therapist, who knows not to let you slip into that habit. You said:
quote:I believe that a good friend is often better than a therapist. Sometimes they know you better, they know the context better, and your relationship can be interdependent as opposed to dependent.
Correct (sort of. Okay, not really at all; it's a false dichotomy between 'friends can give you interdependent help' 'versus' therapy which will give you 'dependent' help, blah blah blah). sometimes that interdependence leads to them telling you what you want to hear, not what you need to hear.
Something else interesting I get from this is inherent condescent/disdain towards teenage girls becoming dependent on advisers and not that fact that there might be legitimate underlying reasons why this might be occurring.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: When I walked into the door of a therapists office I wasn't totally against it, but I definitely felt like therapy was admitting I was weak and unable to take care of myself. It's a terrible belief that has to be thrown out. We wouldn't call somebody weak just because their immune system fails to kill a virus and they get sick. Why then should we call somebody weak or lazy when a very real mental issue arises and they can't deal with it alone?
Awesome. Yes, this. "Bootstraps" mentality is a toxic resistance that leads to this stigmatization. I mean, if one is so worried about dependences, they would do well to tear down rather than build up the therapy stigma, since when people are too uncomfortable to accept therapy when it would really help them, it drives up rates of maladaptive strategies such as pharmaceutical palliation without empowering toolsets, among scores of other things, not least of which includes the ruination of relationships from neglect.
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Call it what you want. It's certainly not professional, either way.
Not it's not. And neither is life, btw. Doctors, lawyers, - they're all about formalism. You have a problem, you isolate it, you present to the trained professional and they deal with it. The heart and mind doesn't work this way. The best argument for therapy is that they can help you help yourself - but that's it. If you approach a therapist with the wrong mindset, expecting to be changed, expecting that the effort you put in is limited the dollars you pay, then therapy isn't going to work.
That's a HUGE frustration of mine about therapy. Again, drawing on my own experiences, mostly with friends and family members who have been to therapy - they aren't changing, and no therapist can force them to. But they are deluding themselves into thinking they are fixing things, or using it as an excuse for why they are cursed and why nothing can ever change "I'm going to a therapist and he's not helping me!"
Talking to your friends? That's also not professional. But having a friend as instant support or as incredibly deep support...friends can be around at times and can be present in places that therapists cannot. Just because something isn't professional does not make it less valuable.
As per the broader argument of therapists vs. friends, or my assumptions of dependence and interdependence. If you want to continue the discussion (not that I do, but you guys seem to), I think we should define where we are disagreeing. I agree therapists are necessary at times, but if something can be done without a therapist, I think that's good.
And just to address something - Samp, I think you are a great poster. So much of your personality comes through. You are incredibly articulate, and skilled at argument. Sometimes, I even find your condescension to be so artful, I find myself appreciating it rather than resenting it.
That having been said - I believe you took my quotes out of context and sandwiched them unfairly. When I said I had not data, I had no data about the efficacy of self-development rather than therapy. I do have data for yours and Rivka's outspokenness. Obviously, neither of us can say anything of those who follow and do not comment, but that's exactly whom I was addressing with my posts. Hatrack now has a therapy culture, whenever advice is solicited, you and Rivka are vehement in suggesting therapy - and I think that people who follow and do not comment, may simply accept that that is true without realizing that there may be other perspectives out there.
And as for detecting tones of condescension - do you WANT my religion to be the bad guy? Because this has more to do with how teenage girls relate to older guys than with anything else.
It should be noted that the flaws of religion, in general, are systemic, and not inherent. Take the perspective that religion is a creation of the mind - it is corrupted by the general flaws of humanity - religion is not an evil in itself. According to your perspective, fight the disease, not the symptom.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: When I walked into the door of a therapists office I wasn't totally against it, but I definitely felt like therapy was admitting I was weak and unable to take care of myself. It's a terrible belief that has to be thrown out. We wouldn't call somebody weak just because their immune system fails to kill a virus and they get sick. Why then should we call somebody weak or lazy when a very real mental issue arises and they can't deal with it alone?
Awesome. Yes, this. "Bootstraps" mentality is a toxic resistance that leads to this stigmatization. I mean, if one is so worried about dependences, they would do well to tear down rather than build up the therapy stigma, since when people are too uncomfortable to accept therapy when it would really help them, it drives up rates of maladaptive strategies such as pharmaceutical palliation without empowering toolsets, among scores of other things, not least of which includes the ruination of relationships from neglect.
I don't know. Both perspectives are necessary. I'm not a fan of throwing pills at every problem. There is a place for medicine, and a place for therapy. I think destroying the stigma will destroy independence, self-help, and maybe even will harm productive friendships or the potential for productive friendships "that's not something I discuss with a friend, it's something I discuss with my therapist." If you need therapy, you need to making yourself secure in realizing that you truly needed a therapist, and so you weren't weak, you were in need. But if you destroy the stigma altogether, then people who are weak, and are just being weak, will show up to the therapists office, and I don't think that's a good thing.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Hatrack now has a therapy culture, whenever advice is solicited
Should I now link to multiple threads where either Sammp or I or the majority of responding posters have provided concrete suggestions in advice threads that were not therapy-related? Because I won't have to look all that hard. Nor would you.
Again, one more time: Sometimes therapy is not indicated. Heck, even most of the time that someone is looking for advice! But when severe marital distress or certain types of severe emotional distress are involved, therapy almost always IS indicated. And "bootstrapping" just ain't gonna do the trick.
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Count me with Rivka and Samp. I won't bother repeating what they have already written but I will add this. Friendships are not always so "balanced" in terms of who depends on whom. A "friend" who is always depending on friends and acquaintances for what should be addressed by a professional is not a very good friend.
"Heart and mind" is not separate from the body. Physical, emotional, spiritual, and mental health are all connected. None of them should be a playground for amateurs.
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Well what would you call people who try to handle problems that they haven't the training to handle?
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Humans? That's my perspective. I think the realm of heart and mind - you have to do a lot of amateur work.
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Why do you think that "heart and mind" are less complicated or prone to damage than the physical body?
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I have mixed feeling about therapists. I know people who've been helped by them a great deal but I also no some real nightmare stories.
I guess that isn't really all that different from medical doctors in general. I still encourage people to see doctors even though some of them occasionally cut off the wrong leg.
(shrug)
Perhaps I'm more ambivalent towards therapists because therapy is really much more of a black box. What works for one person can do real harm to another. If you can find a therapist that's right for you, it can work wonders but that "if" can be a biggy.
And while I know some people who ought to be seeking professional help and aren't, I can point to others who are seeing a therapist when they'd be better off opening up to friends and family.
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I would think it is a case of degree. If you catch a cold or get a small bruise or cut, you can self-medicate. If you have pneumonia or a broken bone, you should see a professional. This works the same for matters of the "heart and mind". Severe problems can't be handled by chicken soup or ice pack.
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And I don't think it's a matter of degree, I think it is the matter of the disease. If you're a ridiculously lazy person and won't put in effort, you're the type of person who needs to hit rock-bottom.
Heart and mind is so complicated and personal that a lot of the work needs to be done on your own. A therapist can be helpful in navigation or teaching, but ultimately, you're gonna have to do the legwork. If you're a self-aware person, like Rivka, you'll use a therapist as a tool. If not, you may use him as a crutch. And that's what I don't like.
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Would a physical therapist helping someone after an injury fall into the same category? Should someone with, say, a spinal injury hit rock bottom and eschew using a therapist as a crutch?
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Aglaea
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: I think destroying the stigma will destroy independence, self-help, and maybe even will harm productive friendships or the potential for productive friendships "that's not something I discuss with a friend, it's something I discuss with my therapist." If you need therapy, you need to making yourself secure in realizing that you truly needed a therapist, and so you weren't weak, you were in need. But if you destroy the stigma altogether, then people who are weak, and are just being weak, will show up to the therapists office, and I don't think that's a good thing.
Destroying stigmatization would improve more lives than it would coddle. Belief in the stigma, whether upheld by the person zirself or surrounding social circles, discourages people from seeking help or from continuing with therapy once started. There are people, as you say, in need, but they deserve the support of their choices - the right choices of receiving therapy - without fighting for validation. Perhaps you think that these people need to be strong and to believe in themselves and get help. But insisting on stigmatization for a service that helps people is cruel.
Also, determining strength or weakness in terms of self-reliance is harmful. There are those who view themselves too strong to go to therapy when it would be immensely helpful to them. This creates a fear of healthy dependency, the reliance on outside sources when you are in need.
This has been said before: People in therapy who want to improve will do so. But it's cruel to make it harder for them to seek help and to say that they might be weak for going.
And I haven't even touched upon the implications of upholding stigmatization surrounding therapy for those with psychiatric disorders.
posted
Are we really trying to make things so simple for the sake of our discussion? Honestly, I think modern psychology is suffering from a major insecurity (ironically enough) that they are not more like medicine. Psychology and the mind is huge. It's also intensely personal and while a doctor can operate on your body, a therapist can only help you to operate on yourself.
Because of that, therapy in it of itself is not akin to the healing of a doctor - and therefore, therapy may even harm, rather than help. As I said before, a person needs to put in the effort, a therapist can only help them, a person who needs to put in effort may convince himself that he is putting in an effort by going to a therapist, and deceive himself into thinking he needs to do no more.
I think THAT is the problem with our society. The fact that relationships take work. If you use a therapist as a tool, great. As an excuse? Awful. And if you use it to avoid the notion that relationships (or other things, for that matter) take work - terrible.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Would a physical therapist helping someone after an injury fall into the same category? Should someone with, say, a spinal injury hit rock bottom and eschew using a therapist as a crutch?
Probably. Armoth didn't say everyone needed to hit rock bottom before seeing a therapist, he said some people did. There are likely some people with a spinal injury who need to "hit rock bottom" before the physical therapist can help. Some people with a spinal injury are going to have to seek 100 doctors opinions on surgery or medication before they are willing to work with a physical therapist.
If you go to a therapist with the attitude "My methods for dealing with this problem aren't working, can you teach me a better way", therapy is likely to help. If you go to a therapist with the attitude, "You need to fix me", I think you are in for trouble.
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I haven't seen anywhere on Hatrack that someone has recommended some sort of permanent dependence on therapy, Armoth. Your worry about this seems misplaced.
A marriage counselor will work with you to address issues or build up different skills, but not forever. You don't just add a counselor to the marriage and forever turn to the psych-co-spouse to resolve your disagreements.
Other places rivka et al recommend therapy: when you are grieving. You don't grieve forever. The therapist doesn't just compound and prolong misery until you run out of money.
It's hard for me to see how these situations can turn into using therapy as a crutch.
This in particular seems weirdly oriented to me:
quote:If you're a ridiculously lazy person and won't put in effort, you're the type of person who needs to hit rock-bottom.
Again, therapy isn't about being lazy or avoiding the natural consequences of your behavior (cognitive or otherwise). Quite the opposite. It's not a way to coast along without dealing with things.
Obviously one would need a good therapist, and there are bad ones! But this is true for people who need a plumber, it's nothing that taints the entire field.
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Armoth, it is that simple. You seem to only be dealing with bad therapy. The same could be said of any kind of bad medicine. I still don't understand why you feel that professionals who help you treat your physical health are okay but professionals that help with mental health are not and that this should be handled by amateurs.
My physician can't make me lose weight, for example or excercise for me, but he can give me tools to help with that. He can't make me take my medicine, but he can prescribe what is good for me.
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quote:I think THAT is the problem with our society. The fact that relationships take work. If you use a therapist as a tool, great. As an excuse? Awful. And if you use it to avoid the notion that relationships (or other things, for that matter) take work - terrible.
This!
I have some friends who went through a nasty divorce because he was sleeping with one of his graduate students. They went to a therapist to try to work things out, he couldn't find one he liked. This was because the only real problem with their marriage was that he was having an affair. Before he started sleeping with this grad student, their marriage was going great. He kept trying to manufacture problems that didn't really exist in order to try to justify his behavior. With that attitude, its not surprising that marriage counseling didn't work
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If they never found one he liked and would work with, counseling was never given a chance to work.
And not to give the guy any excuses, because he sounds like a royal jerk, but I doubt that "the only real problem with their marriage was that he was having an affair" is true.
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If a diabetic refuses to take their insulin we don't say that people shouldn't go to doctors.
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Aglaea
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Modern psychology is part of medicine, or at least hard science. And you can't get a decent psych education these days without studying the underlying physiology. There may be some projected insecurities within the field about its veracity by groups or individuals, but not as a whole.
And it's incorrect to imply that the mind is so vast that mental and personal difficulties are essentially impossible to diagnose except by the self. Self-knowledge is precious, but sometimes other people can get a sense of what's wrong (because they have been trained to spot these kinds of things).
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If you're sick, you go to a doctor. If you're mentally sick, you go to a therapist. That's the analogy? And you're trying to undo a stigma? I can pretend I'm not mentally sick and therefore never visit a therapist.
And my issue is that a lot of times, I don't think people are sick. I think they are normal. They just need to grow up and make healthy decisions, put in real work, and live. Psychology is so pervasive in everything that we do - I don't like the perspective of - "Oh, I'm mentally sick, just like if I caught a disease, let me visit a doctor." - Life isn't full of diseases and professionals - it's full of struggles and you.
Aglaea - I didn't mean to say that things were essentially impossible to diagnose. But it's difficult. I can withhold information from my therapist and thereby interfere with his diagnosis, or a therapist may get lazy in his diagnosis and seek to fit me into a box that I don't exactly fit into.
You alone are the master of your inner world. As I said before, to the extent to which you can usea therapist to help you navigate - great. To the extent to which you use him to help you deceive yourself. Not great.
But I still think therapy and medicine are different. Not that medicine is better - but just that they are two different realms.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: ...I doubt that "the only real problem with their marriage was that he was having an affair" is true.
Me, too. From what I have seen, affairs are more likely to be symptoms than causes.
Agreed.
I've heard this too. But is it possible that the affair is actually closer to the cause, to the extent to which that it is a manifestation of a lack of effort, and thereby, a lack of self-control?
(kind of implying that counseling wouldn't help because that person isn't putting in effort.)
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Armoth, all those things are true for physical doctors as well. I can not tell her about my symptoms. Why do you think that mental sickness should have more stigma than physical sickness?
No one is saying that everyone should go to a therapist for everything - though we do go to doctors for checkups and get routine testing. Hmm...
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: ...I doubt that "the only real problem with their marriage was that he was having an affair" is true.
Me, too. From what I have seen, affairs are more likely to be symptoms than causes.
Agreed.
I've heard this too. But is it possible that the affair is actually closer to the cause, to the extent to which that it is a manifestation of a lack of effort, and thereby, a lack of self-control?
So, a symptom, then?
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: ...I doubt that "the only real problem with their marriage was that he was having an affair" is true.
Me, too. From what I have seen, affairs are more likely to be symptoms than causes.
Agreed.
I've heard this too. But is it possible that the affair is actually closer to the cause, to the extent to which that it is a manifestation of a lack of effort, and thereby, a lack of self-control?
So, a symptom, then?
I thought my comment made sense in the context of the discussion. I'm sorry if used your quote to make the suggestion.
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I think that you are missing Jake's point. The affair would be a symtom of the guy's lack of self control not the cause of it.
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Aglaea
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Sickness and illness as stigmas are socially constructed. Words such as "sick", "disease", and "illness" do carry much negative connotation, but they are also used, professionally and casually, as neutral terms. Attributing the invocation of the stigma to a conversation or comment where is it obvious that the word at fault was used neutrally misdirects the discussion.
As others have said, there are different degrees to which your mental and personal issues become pervasive in your life. It's generally accepted that the marker should be when you become dysfunctional with your daily tasks (but there is wiggle room for this one), or wish seek answers and advice from a trained professional about how to organize your inner, and thereby your outer, world.
You can't eliminate people taking the easy way out by denying a service for people who need it. Immature people are not going to go away. And believe me, therapists don't like it either, but they accept that there will be people who are looking for that easy answer, just as there will be people who see an MD for that happy pill. (And therapists have a professional obligation to tell that person when therapy isn't working for zir.)
How do you think that therapy and medicine are two different realms?
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What I find interesting now is that the points of contention against my position are devolving into a tautological nature. In essence, 'therapy is good, unless it is bad.' Okay, good. I think everyone's got that. it's mainly irrelevant to anything I'm asserting (for instance, nobody's saying 'you should use therapists INSTEAD of friends' or 'therapists are BETTER than friends' — the entire therapists 'versus' friends thing is entirely reflexively construed). Since it doesn't really say anything, I will angle back to the things I found interesting at the outset: The "dependency" label, the bootstraps mentality which we got a little bit more of here:
quote:Life isn't full of diseases and professionals - it's full of struggles and you.
Which is interesting as a supposition, because, to me, life is observably full of all four.
and
quote:I think destroying the stigma will destroy independence, self-help, and maybe even will harm productive friendships or the potential for productive friendships "that's not something I discuss with a friend, it's something I discuss with my therapist." If you need therapy, you need to making yourself secure in realizing that you truly needed a therapist, and so you weren't weak, you were in need. But if you destroy the stigma altogether, then people who are weak, and are just being weak, will show up to the therapists office, and I don't think that's a good thing.
I find this highly incorrect and it draws back to your underlying anecdotal 'gut reaction' to the idea of therapy, involving it inherently with dependence even though considerable effort is being made to show how professional therapy does not encourage dependence and actually makes people more readily able to handle personal issues on their own. As a result, when you extrapolate the 'consequences' of making therapy more acceptable and less stigmatized, you attach these riders. 'we'll use our friends less' and 'removing the stigma will destroy interdependence' and so forth, even though the notion at its core that therapy is "about" dependence "versus" interdependence is probably your most critically flawed notion.
quote:Aglaea - I didn't mean to say that things were essentially impossible to diagnose. But it's difficult. I can withhold information from my therapist and thereby interfere with his diagnosis, or a therapist may get lazy in his diagnosis and seek to fit me into a box that I don't exactly fit into.
Replace the word "therapist" with the word "friend" or "doctor" and it works pretty much exactly the same.
NOW
drawing back even further to more important things.
quote:As per the broader argument of therapists vs. friends, or my assumptions of dependence and interdependence. If you want to continue the discussion (not that I do, but you guys seem to), I think we should define where we are disagreeing. I agree therapists are necessary at times, but if something can be done without a therapist, I think that's good.
There's actually three points along a continuum we could think of.
1. Points at which therapists are, for a given definition of necessary ('a therapist is necessary for this marriage not to fall apart,' 'a therapist is necessary to keep this person from having suicidal ideation,' 'a therapist is necessary to break this person's hoarding habits,' 'a therapist is necessary for this person's major depressive disorder).
2. Points at which therapists are not necessary but greatly beneficial and improve the quality of life for all involved.
3. Points at which therapists are not/are no longer necessary.
Unless you've got major problems that fit into number 1 and appear more pervasive (MDD, bipolar, major life crisis, trauma, grief, etc), therapy starts with an analytical session, then the therapists puts a concluding date. Nearly all therapy is about getting a person to category number 3. You appear assured that this is not the case. But if you ask licensed psychotherapists, even ones that work in fields like eating disorders, anxiety issues, trauma counseling — stuff that's working with people at their absolutely most vulnerable and needing — they would talk about their ethical requirements, their review boards, and their medical ethic (and yes, therapy fits into the broader purview of medicine). They set concluding dates. The goal is self-actualization, not acting as a sponge or a 'dependence.' Some of the most effective certified forms of therapy, including CBT, are all scheduled to an end point where the therapist is not needed anymore. In that sense, it's no more a 'dependence' than job training or school. You are being trained.
quote:And as for detecting tones of condescension - do you WANT my religion to be the bad guy? Because this has more to do with how teenage girls relate to older guys than with anything else.
It should be noted that the flaws of religion, in general, are systemic, and not inherent. Take the perspective that religion is a creation of the mind - it is corrupted by the general flaws of humanity - religion is not an evil in itself. According to your perspective, fight the disease, not the symptom.
Your religion has nothing to do with it. Religion has nothing to do with it. It could be an entirely secular institution and my reaction would be unchanged, utterly. It's skeevy in application. It sets off amateur hour counseling red flags. you have described a bad counseling environment; if it claimed to be a certified therapy operation, I would immediately write an ethics board about it, period. Why would I not be inspired to keep my kid miles and miles away from it?
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posted
Medicine actually needs to be MORE meddling in a person's personal affairs, and I don't consider that 'dependent' in any negative sense. Physical checkups are ace, and your GP is the most important doctor you will ever have. But yeah, they should bring up concerns about diet, lifestyle, health, drug habits, etc.
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Armoth: Clearly there are people out there who see therapists because they want to talk their issues but they don't actually want to fix them. Of course that's wrong.
There are also people who keep visiting doctors because they hope chewing some pills will solve some of their issues rather than adjusting their lifestyles. Obviously nobody approves of either of these scenarios.
Now without any data to back me up, I'd say that while there is a disturbing increase of people who are just visiting therapists because that's sort of in vogue amongst the rich, there is still an overwhelming majority of people who do not visit a therapist when they ought to. They have friends, they have family members, they even try to utilize them. The venting process is nice, but just as often they are given ignorant advice from those same sources. We laugh at all those "old wives remedies" about how to deal with certain physical health issues. What people don't realize is that there are a lot of those same stupid ideas when it comes to mental health.
"Never go to bed angry"
"If you're angry, sleep on it."
"Go out get drunk and party."
"Get laid."
"Don't worry it's hard at first but it will get easier with time."
"You and your spouse just need to 'communicate' more."
"Just be around your friends more, they appreciate you."
Some of those ideas have some efficacy depending on the person and depending on the problem. But a lot of those ideas are woefully inadequate and actually demean real issues people are having. If somebody is suffering from a divorce and they are experiencing deep seeded self-confidence issues it's common to tell those people, "Just give it time, just spend time with friends, etc." Now that might help, but *a lot* of the time the person's self-confidence issues are also being aggravated by other events and personality quirks that are being tagged by the divorce. That person has to face *all* of those issues (or demons) or else they might come out of it sort of OK, they will try to move on with dating, marriage, etc, but just as often they will do it as if there is a weight on their shoulders and wonder why it's so hard.
Suddenly a person who ended up divorced because they were always denigrating their spouse no matter what their spouse did, realizes they are dealing with abandonment issues, that go back to the time they were a small child and their father constantly verbally abused them and was never emotionally available, and left one day. In their own marriage the fear that their husband is going to act in a similar fashion subconsciously causes them to be anxious to the point that they are constantly critical.
Some people walk away from that background and are fine. That's wonderful for them. But just as many people don't realize that sometimes things like that in our background don't just go away. The person in my example *needs* to work through the problem of their father, before you can even attempt to work out the problem of them being verbally abusive to their spouse.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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On the flip side of the argument, there have been two or three books written about the subject of 'therapism' or 'therapy culture' which speaks to people who have a gut distaste of therapy by asserting that today's pop-psych encourages dependence on therapy.
This is actually something I was excited to read about, because I believe absolutely in challenging systems I support, and I want to know in full how and in what ways a system like psychotherapy is becoming abusive, inefficient, or counterproductive.
The end results were two sadly terrible (and terribly written) political fluff pieces, so they were of no use. But they did try to bank on the 'myth of self esteem,' by talking about it generally as an example of when bad therapy is trying to foster unethical dependencies; to get people hooked on self-esteem talk-ups by therapists. And since there's such a wide gulf between a licensed therapist with a psychology degree, beholden to an ethics board, and another state's unlicensed therapist who is a therapist just because they say they are (and can afford a yellow pages ad), it's caveat emptor and a necessity to shop around.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:A "friend" who is always depending on friends and acquaintances for what should be addressed by a professional is not a very good friend.
I completely agree with this. A few years ago I had a friend who went through some very serious issues. At first, I was more than willing to talk with her about it and felt sympathetic. But as years passed, her trauma and depression never seemed to decrease and she just repeated herself again and again. I really wished she'd see a therapist so she'd have somebody to talk to about these things that could provide real solutions rather than just support- and brought up the idea on multiple occasions. I tried to still be there for her, but I'll admit it just wasn't fun to be around her anymore and I gradually started feeling "too busy" to see her as much.
I'm not proud of how this story. But I bring it up because I think that the idea that friends can do what therapists can is largely false. Friends can provide support and advice but they are not qualified to help solve intense depression and the underlying causes of it- nor are they the appropriate source to go to for it.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:I completely agree with this. A few years ago I had a friend who went through some very serious issues. At first, I was more than willing to talk with her about it and felt sympathetic. But as years passed, her trauma and depression never seemed to decrease and she just repeated herself again and again. I really wished she'd see a therapist so she'd have somebody to talk to about these things that could provide real solutions rather than just support- and brought up the idea on multiple occasions. I tried to still be there for her, but I'll admit it just wasn't fun to be around her anymore and I gradually started feeling "too busy" to see her as much.
This exact same event is pretty much nearing the end of its expected course with a girl I know. I was a bit more straightforward, and said she needed to stop using her friends as emotional sponges if she wanted them to still be her friends, and she needed better help than they could provide for her problems.
months later, I find out in the most callous way that she has worn out her welcome in that exact fashion and was even asked to move out by what has to be about the most selfless and giving group of friends I know of, so I know it can't have been done lightly.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I'm okay with your 3 part analysis. I just don't know how to go into the particulars of how to fit what into each category.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I totally agree with Rivka. I think therapy is essential.
In my own experience, one-on-one is better than couples therapy, only because in my own experience the chances are pretty high that one out of the couple will see it as an opportunity to bitch and blame in a sanctioned setting without taking a look at themselves, and that's less than effective. But going by yourself, with a set goal? That's marvelous. Even if you're having trouble in a relationship, going by yourself is a good idea.
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