quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Didn't Ponyo have a large all star cast? Matt Damon, Liam Neelson etc?
Sorry for not being precise, thier exact faces are what can really change how one feels about a scene. I listened to one film-makers review of The Kings Speech and he gushed about Helena Bonham Carters ever so slight facial expression making the movie for him.
As much as I am a fan of anime and how well they do things that cant logistically be done otherwise a drawing cant make me feel an intended emotion like Ben Foster in Alpha Dog or Christian Bale in The Machinist.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: And specifically to Ender's Game we've had the first argument before, Ender's Game would trounce a live action movie in this regard because child actors would be incredibly unlikely to show successfully that level of physical exhaustion or emotion as convincingly as animation.
Well, this is why I'm actually convinced it *can't* be made into a decent film at all. Animation, no matter who is making it, has the drawbacks I discussed. It just *does.* You look at a drawing and you know it's a drawing. If you want the full dexterity for expressing shades realness, which is important in this particular story, you have to draw on imagery all the way from photorealism to crude childish animation. I am not in the least sanguine about the prospect of animation of any kind doing this better than live action. And live action requires a feat of acting (not to mention timing issues for this story), that I think is unreasonable to expect.
quote:I don't think you know what you are talking about.
I assure you that I know what *I* am talking about. But we're not having the conversation you think we are.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Blayne Bradley
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You made several assumptions about anime and each one was incorrect, so no you don't know what you are talking about.
quote: There's a visceral quality in Ender's Game, reflected in Ender's experiences of exhaustion, physical depletion, etc, that wouldn't really transfer well to animation.
NGE and Infinite Ryvius did this just fine.
quote: Anime uses distorted and exaggerated physics and images of human suffering *specifically* to overcome this shortcoming.
If it overcomes the shortcoming doesn't that imply then that it can do it? You are contradicting yourself.
quote: That's what a lot of anime fans don't get about why it isn't more popular in America.
"What about of X doesn't get" when I highly doubt you've met very many, and even if you did which would be anectdotal at best isn't a convincing argument.
quote: It has serious shortcomings that, while they can be overcome in interesting ways, and while they in fact challenge their writers to innovate interestingly in terms of dialogue and story as well as art, still place it below the register of live action film in terms of visceral experiential quality.
Another contradiction you can't have your cake and eat it, if it overcomes this short comings through varyious innovations than how is it below in giving a visceral experience?
quote: I suspect that's exactly *why* it's so popular among geeks in America, and so popular among the general public in Japan. There is some common ground there. But anime fans should keep in mind that there are more reasons than snobbish rejection that many people don't take to the genre.
You don't elaborate here, are you saying that because it is 'subpar' that is why geeks like it? Or are you saying because it innovates in different ways that anime geeks like it? Also strawman, every mature minded Otaku knows not everyone can enjoy anime for varying cultural or technical reasons and to some extant that is a source of pride, 'what good is an expensive hobby if everyone can partake in it?' etc, but not every single person is adamantly convinced it is "only" because of snobbish rejection AND it is also incorrect and inaccurate to simply it plays no part however.
Many of the same arguments regarding anime also find applicibility in video games and snobbish rejection plays just as huge a part there as here.
quote: And specifically to Ender's Game, a great deal of the strength of the story is the focus on actual relatable human suffering-
Anime can handle relate-able human suffering just fine, NGE, Infinite Ryvius, Madoka Magica is heading that direction; I can probably dig up more examples if I think on it.
quote: and a strong sense of humanity v. the otherness of the buggers-
Zettai Karen Children, Blue Drops, Super Dimensional Fortress Macross and many many many others have alien otherness as strong overarching themes.
quote: the reality of private conversations,
Zuh? Do you mean the email transcripts? Watch Gankutsu or any other of the several other dozen animes that use narration during the opening.
quote:the battle room,
Quite a few animes do a good job with zero-g animation, Ryvuys and Starship Operators among them, Planetes as well I'm certain.
quote: and physical fatigue v.
Whether or not you feel that this is a shortcoming that they have to "overcome" doesn't change the fact that they do get that emotion across perfectly fine.
quote: the unreality of aliens and combat light years away in space.
Possibly the greatest strong point of Starship Operators was the fact that it was possibly the most scienfitically accurate 'hard' scifi story out there, no joke, no exaggerations, I was constantly double checking with ProjectRho and it was consistent across the board. Infinite Ryvius does a little bit of this as well but is less focused on it, basically that Starship Operators does is clearly not only says but shows and elaborates on how actually space combat with accurate propulsion systems would day hours if not days to fight, at incredibly long ranges kinda like as if they animated Honor Harrington so the feel of fighting an encredibly far away enemy while hovering over cramped consoles is all there and preserved.
quote: If you transpose everything onto a two dimensional plane of animation where all the images have the same register of reality- sp that everything, the mindgame, Ender's dreams, the battle simulations, the propaganda vids, and the physical fights looks like everything else, then there is no shading of reality as represented in the novel.
And this is squarely where I call bullshit and that you have probably never seen very many animes because this is assuredly wrong, as a good viewing of Gangkutsu (the consensus is that it is the MOST accurate adaption of the Count of Monte Cristo to date aside from Wishbone) would show you, anime can not only do surrealism but also a whole wide range of styles and atmosphere and can do each of the above things differently AND blend them together coherently so there isn't an audible "clunk" in between.
quote:
The dreams will feel as fake as the game- the simulation as fake as the battle room. The sunshine on Ender's face on the lake will be meaningless, because animation of a space station environment and animation of a lake on Earth are not going to be that different- whereas in live action, you just *feel* the difference, you don't need to be shown that it is different.
Just blind bias and ignorance.
quote: That's why a film lasts for a few hours, and a book for hundreds of pages- it takes that much longer to create the reality in a novel, but a film doesn't have that kind of time. This, btw, being the same reason that Anime series lend themselves to length as well- their weaknesses become strengths over time, where a film story would exhaust its audience at such lengths.
And here is where both PSI and I corrected you, the majority of anime is 13 episodes seasons, a good junk is about 26 episode format and only a relatively few are hundred episode long runners.
Also Anime has proven itself perfectly adept at compression, there are dozens of well regarded anime movies out there, the NasuVerse ones spring to mind, then there's the compilation movies which actually compress 13 to 26 episode seasons into theater going length.
Why would an Ender's Game film have to be long? An EG Anime adaption wouldn't be doing *every* book in the series just EG and ES, why would it have to take any longer extra time between one adaption and another?
Can you show and come up with an example of a single scene from the book that would take longer animated than done in live action?
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: You made several assumptions about anime and each one was incorrect, so no you don't know what you are talking about.
I made several assertions about anime. They are based entirely in my own opinions. They cannot actually be wrong. You can talk about that, you can keep quoting more stock from the genre as if that's meaningful.
ETA: as to your edit. Yes, indeed, we are not having the conversation you think we are having. And now you need to take a step back and calm yourself, and compose your thoughts, and ask yourself why you are doing what you are doing, and whether you really want to be doing it. I will not engage with your blinding nerd rage.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: You made several assumptions about anime and each one was incorrect, so no you don't know what you are talking about.
I made several assertions about anime. They are based entirely in my own opinions. They cannot actually be wrong. You can talk about that, you can keep quoting more stock from the genre as if that's meaningful.
I edited my post to provide more elaboration, but it's clear from this that you are not debating this in good faith once you pull "these are only my opinions so they cannot be proven wrong canard"
There's a difference between opinion "I think gun ownership is a bad idea" and being wrong "guns don't kill people, apes with guns kill people".
Saying "I don't think EG would work as well as an anime" is an opinion, because it includes "think" as in "I don't really have all the information but it is possible I could be proven wrong" what you did was give a list of REASONS in which point it because no longer opinion but an attempt to make an authoritative statement that is based on what you consider and I object to be wrong; factual.
At which point if I go through each one than hell yeas your opinion can be wrong if I can assuredly show them to be incorrect or based on fault assumption.
quote: You can talk about that, you can keep quoting more stock from the genre as if that's meaningful.
And you lose all credibility right here, have a nice day your opinion is not worth the paper it isn't printed on when you can't bring yourself to respect the opinions and experiences of others.
You are clearly not arguing this in good faith.
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Again, in case you missed it Blayne, you are way over the line, and I will not engage with you on this. You need to seek the input of other people in order to find out why that is.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Again, in case you missed it Blayne, you are way over the line, and I will not engage with you on this. You need to seek the input of other people in order to find out why that is.
I am not way over line you're just afraid of being proven wrong by me conclusively in a field you clearly have no experience in and trying to turn this somehow into an argument about me is just weak of you.
Where precisely did I cross the line?
quote: I will not engage with your blinding nerd rage.
Herp a derp derp derp.
Once again, you are just being disrespectful and condescending, you do not respect the discussion and at least one other has pointed out that your post sounded analyzed and typed out on the fly, to which I would elaborate as you simply not knowing anything substantiative about the medium.
"Consider the source" and "look at the record" do you actually know what you are talking about? Have many have you seen? What have you seen?
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Blayne: Your posts are absolutely in a bad place right now. You need to calm down and take a step back.
Orincoro is absolutely entitled to *experience* things the way he does. He does not find anime to be compelling as a medium when it comes to what he feels is necessary for a good adaption of Ender's Game. You can rail and spit all you want that he just needs to see more of it, but that too is an opinion. Orincoro will either experience anime that changes his mind, or he won't, and you cannot guarantee that if he did see the anime you specified that he'd experience the way you have.
I think Ender's Game would make a fine animated movie. But I also believe that live action absolutely brings things to the table that animation cannot, it just can't. A person drawing can't bring the spontaneous facial expressions and body movement that an actor in the moment can. The chemistry between characters is limited to what the artists draw and the voice actors do. In live action, it's all up to the actors at the time with direction.
Anime is not live cinema, is not theater, is not books, is not oral stories. Much the same way a man can act out a very convincing woman, but in some ways he can't complete the act. But we might want or require women as perceived by a man in a story. As you said, you believe Ender's Game requires animation because child actors cannot be expected to play such complex characters. Orson Scott Card himself disagrees with you as evidenced by his opinions on the movie Peter Pan. He is also a Hayao Miyazaki fan, and an avowed fan of animation, so maybe he agrees that animation is a viable route. We'll only know if a movie is made.
Meanwhile, you need to stop acting like anime is the end all be all format that can do anything, and anybody who disagrees with you is ignorant because they just need to watch more anime. Maybe you are right, but it's unfair to insist people trust your opinions above their own.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: You don't want an argument about you? What isn't about you? I can't play this game dude, Seriously, I don't care.
As if anyone actually believes that when you go running to Sakeriver to see if I'm being mean to you or not.
quote:Orincoro is absolutely entitled to *experience* things the way he does.
There is a clear difference between him having an honest opinion and him trying to state that opinion as fact, one is honest opinion the other is being pompous and overbearing; I recognize that anime isn't for everyone but he went into a very long elaborative wall of text justifying his opinion with what he considers to be 'evidence' at which point it is not opinion anymore and no longer "safe" from constructive debunking.
You are also strawmaning my position BB, I am not saying it is the end all be all, while I am convinced an animated adaption would be better I do recognize it as a YMMV thing.
quote: You can rail and spit all you want that he just needs to see more of it, but that too is an opinion.
That was never my argument regarding Orincoro you didn't read my posts, I was pointing out evidence that there were indeed shows that do the very things it claims it doesn't do, I am not saying for him to watch it because I know he won't.
quote: Orincoro will either experience anime that changes his mind, or he won't, and you cannot guarantee that if he did see the anime you specified that he'd experience the way you have.
I can guarantee that it is at least an experience approximate to it; which is the benchmark we are discussion, whether it is sufficient or not.
quote: I think Ender's Game would make a fine animated movie. But I also believe that live action absolutely brings things to the table that animation cannot, it just can't. A person drawing can't bring the spontaneous facial expressions and body movement that an actor in the moment can. The chemistry between characters is limited to what the artists draw and the voice actors do. In live action, it's all up to the actors at the time with direction.
Anime is not live cinema, is not theater, is not books, is not oral stories. Much the same way a man can act out a very convincing woman, but in some ways he can't complete the act. But we might want or require women as perceived by a man in a story.
Maybe, but it is clear that it can do it well enough, and close enough, that the audience will still get the same cues even if it lacks the same level of subtlety, which is all that is really required.
quote: Orson Scott Card himself disagrees with you as evidenced by his opinions on the movie Peter Pan. He is also a Hayao Miyazaki fan, and an avowed fan of animation, so maybe he agrees that animation is a viable route. We'll only know if a movie is made.
Aside from the appeal to authority the precise argument was finding enough child actors while doing the movie when they can be found and vetted before they grow to old for the part, find a few good ones is surely no problem its finding enough for the 12+ named cast that is problematic.
quote: Meanwhile, you need to stop acting like anime is the end all be all format that can do anything, and anybody who disagrees with you is ignorant because they just need to watch more anime. Maybe you are right, but it's unfair to insist people trust your opinions above their own.
Again strawmaning, I never said it was the end all be all; secondly just as in logical discussion when one party says "I have never seen evidence of X" the reasonable response is to say "Alright so here is X" if the other party is incorrect.
If they then see or view that evidence and still disagree that's one thing but until they do it IS reasonable to state that their position is in doubt if there is evidence to the contrary.
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You need to calm down. I believe you've been told by the only person you *do* have to listen to here.
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Blayne Bradley
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I'm perfectly calm
'calm down' isn't the same as 'stop talking'.
If he wants the discussion to step he can lock the thread, he doesn't need you to back seat moderate.
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"have a nice day your opinion is not worth the paper it isn't printed on"
Telling somebody that the things they believe are worthless isn't a great place to go ever.
"As if anyone actually believes that when you go running to Sakeriver to see if I'm being mean to you or not."
Now you are taunting him.
quote:You are also strawmaning my position BB, I am not saying it is the end all be all, while I am convinced an animated adaption would be better I do recognize it as a YMMV thing.
I was exaggerating a bit, as indicated by my saying, "Meanwhile, you need to stop acting like anime is the end all be all format"
You mention anime so often, that it's easy for people to think your biases make it hard for you to be critical of its limitations. I'm glad that is not the case, you'd do well to perhaps say what you think anime's weaknesses are.
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Blayne Bradley
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The second sure yes, I was wrong but the first was a conditional statement.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: I'm perfectly calm
'calm down' isn't the same as 'stop talking'.
If he wants the discussion to step he can lock the thread, he doesn't need you to back seat moderate.
He isn't. He just said you were over the line, and the moderator subsequently agreed.
You're way too worked up about this and it's way to get you worked up about this and many subjects like this, and then you get juvenile and dismissing. Stop it.
(this message brought to you by the 'locking the thread is not the solution' institute)
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I wonder how much of my opinion here is based on weird marketing things as opposed to the the actual qualities of anime itself. For example, I saw the trailer for Appleseed on apple.com, and thought it was really cool. But I don't think it ever showed up in mainstream theaters, so I never ended up watching it. If Ender's Game was actually marketed aggressively in America, it'd probably do well whatever it's animation style.
Not really. Anime would be the kiss of death for it (not that we really have to dwell on that, since it's never going to happen that way, nor should it), high-budget standard animation would work, and is not without precedent (see: Iron Giant, once it escaped the initial marketing failure), and slightly stylized cgi would, I suppose, also work. None of these is optimal and I offer the animation option only as a means I see of escaping the otherwise insurmountable quality issues inherent to the near impossibility of making this movie with an age-appropriate cast without cheapening the pacing and themes.
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Blayne Bradley
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How about you let the moderator do the moderating and you can get back to the backseat.
You also frequently join into many of these subjects and subjects like this just to criticize me on whatever is wrong you perceive with my behavior at the time, how about you stop doing that? You have a problem pm me or the moderator and leave well enough alone, you should know better by this point that I don't respond well whenever you get on my case.
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I leave well enough alone frequently, but this hinges on the position that your behavior, when I choose to comment on it, is still 'well enough.'
quote:you should know better by this point that I don't respond well whenever you get on my case.
Saying this essentially boils down to 'Don't criticize me, because you know I won't respond well if I do.' No. My response is not to walk on eggshells around you in the hopes of placating your worst tendencies, or their effects on this board. You're not entitled to fault others for you going overboard, even when you've established that tendency for years.
What's going on here is excruciatingly simple. You're going overboard. Debate that if you want, since you don't seem to understand where you're going wrong. I think you should stop it. Debate that if you think you're perfectly entitled to act the way you do. Don't default to assuming that I'm just a troll or say I should 'know better' than to comment negatively on your negative behaviors when I desire that you cease them.
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I know it's been discussed before (what about the Ender's Game movie hasn't?) but I am interested in the idea of a computer animated version. To my eye, the animation has greatly improved in the last few years to the point that real human emotions and actions are clearly communicated, and of course it solves that problem of many good child actors. However, it does seem that right now computer animation might still be a little to weak for anything but broad comedy. Tangled is a great example; it had a lot of the story communicated by character reactions (visually I mean) and I think it did a great job of it. Yet the expressions were normally over the top, which was just right for that movie but I don't know if that's just the limit of the technology right now. Of course the movie is still a ways off from being made so who knows where it will be in a few years.
quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: Tangled is a great example; it had a lot of the story communicated by character reactions (visually I mean) and I think it did a great job of it. Yet the expressions were normally over the top, which was just right for that movie but I don't know if that's just the limit of the technology right now.
Tangled is a pixar collaborative which applied nearly every lesson that pixar has learned about the balance between realism and stylized representation in order to avoid the Uncanny Valley (for more on the subject, see the failures of Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within and Polar Express). The middle ground for motion animation that it has found most closely matches that of the old animation studios in America.
If the latest 'realistic animation' venture -- called, I think, 'mars needs moms' -- fails, expect for us to stay there.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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The problem with going CG or the animation route is simple. Unless the movie is rated G or PG, it won't do well at the box office.
In the US when the average person hears of an animated or CG movie, they think of a family film. There have been some attempts to bring animation to a more adult audience, but there have been very few that have been able to have a decent level of success.
South Park make $83 million. Final Fantasy made $85 million. Eight Crazy Nights (That horrible animated Adam Sandler film) made $86 million.
Now compare that to movies such as Up, Tangled, Monsters Inc. and others. Up made over $700 million. Tangled (so far) has grossed over $400 million, and Monsters Inc. was over $500 million.
Animated family movies sell well. Anything Disney, Dreamworks, and Pixar releases is box office gold. They are established brands. They pretty much have a monopoly on the genre. If it isn't one of those companies, and it isn't a family movie, it's not going to do well.
That isn't true for live action movies. A no name director or studio can put together a live action movie and do well at the box office. District 9 was directed by a guy that previously directed commercials, and that movie made over $200 million on a $30 million budget.
At the same time, a big name director can make a film that bombs at the box office. Alexander was directed by Oliver Stone, had numerous famous actors, and lost over $110 million at the box office. Poseiden was directed by Wolfgang Peterson and lost $100 million as well.
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Orci and Kurtzman didn't write the newest screenplay, they're getting behind the project as PRODUCERS. The screenplay that they're shopping was written by Gavin Hood and was based off a prior screenplay by OSC. So, the entire argument about OSC hating Hollywood writers and people not taking his scripts seriously is moot.
posted
OSC also said recently, in his Tangled review, that animation is extremely expensive? I think we've all been working under the assumption that animation would be cheaper.
Does anyone actually KNOW how the cost numbers work out? I'm just curious. I'm not a big enough movie buff to even know how to go about comparing such a thing.
P.S. While I think E.G. might do well animated, they've gotten REALLY good with it in alot of places, I do think you'd lose alot of people by putting it into an Anime format.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Jun 2006
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It depends a lot on how good the animation is. And how good the acting you're comparing it to. The last few Pixar movies have had a budget of around 150-200 million. Which isn't too dissimilar to flashy sci-fi CGI films. (which also include a lot of animation, just not of humans)
Anime (usually) is cheaper because Anime is done cheaply, with few frames per second, lots of recycled footage and long freeze frames of dramatic expressions. I haven't been able to find the budget for Appleseed, other than "it was a lot." Howl's Moving Castle was done for 24 million, but I don't consider that style to be quite appropriate for Ender's Game and I don't know what the differences would entail. Princess and the Frog was about 100 million.
I have no idea what portions of any of those budgets went to actual animation.
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I have no idea what portions of any of those budgets went to actual animation.
Anecdotally, I've known a few digital animation artists who've worked on hollywood film for studios in Europe, and basically it comes down to man-hours. It can actually be a money saver to manufacture a large number of elements of a film digitally so that, for instance, two highly paid actors don't actually ever have to meet in person (or go to the location) to do a scene together. A flatmate of mine was the digital artist on a few dozen shots for the film "Season of Witch," and he said it was cheaper to employ him and a team of 5 animators for two months than it would have been to fly Nicholas Cage out to the location in Karlovy Vary for an extra day, which would have been the other way of getting the shots. Seems weird, anyway.
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I assumed that it would work out like that when you're dealing with very high profile actors, but wasn't sure how it worked out for more "run of the mill" actors.
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I was just recalling Beowulf, which had some major problems, but got a 71% out of Rotten Tomatoes. It cost $150 mill to make, grossed $85 mill in the US and $196 mill worldwide. But I think it sold bigger in Britain than the US, which is not going to be as likely with EG. It would be very risky, but any screen rendition of EG will be.
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OSC is specifically on record as saying Beowulf style animation isn't there yet (there's a bit of a vacant look in the characters eyes)
What DOES strike me as relevant is Benjamin Button, but that had a pretty huge budget and only focused on one character. I think another 10 years or so and it'll be feasible to apply it to Ender's Game without taking too big a risk.
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Blayne Bradley
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Y'know what, looking at it objectively I think Wandering / Houro Mosuko probably has the most detailed animation/artwork I've seen to date out of anime, I think I misread the question, least unique as in which one uses the most or the least shortcuts/frame reuse?
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Or we could all just wait another 8-10 years, at which point computers will be fast enough that CG movies will look exactly like live action.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Geraine: South Park make $83 million. Final Fantasy made $85 million. Eight Crazy Nights (That horrible animated Adam Sandler film) made $86 million.
Now compare that to movies such as Up, Tangled, Monsters Inc. and others. Up made over $700 million. Tangled (so far) has grossed over $400 million, and Monsters Inc. was over $500 million.
Animated family movies sell well. Anything Disney, Dreamworks, and Pixar releases is box office gold. They are established brands. They pretty much have a monopoly on the genre. If it isn't one of those companies, and it isn't a family movie, it's not going to do well.
In fairness, both Eight Crazy Nights and Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within were bad movies. FF was sort of worth watching for the technology, but the script seemed like it had never gotten the necessary edit/filter where someone said, "You know this is a huge action movie cliche, right? You know that this is a stilted and confusing way for supposed human beings to talk, right?" And South Park was limited by, well, being South Park- by the time it came out, you probably knew whether this was a movie you were going to want to see or not, and it wasn't likely to be anyone's "movie night impulse buy".
Conversely, Tangled et. al. were all really good movies. And yes, Pixar/Disney's brand undoubtedly helped, but that brand was built up by Pixar making really good movies, one after another. (One can't help but wonder if the Disney brand is a bit of a mixed blessing, these days.)
But consider Avatar. I don't know that it's entirely accurate to describe it as a live-action movie, and it doesn't fit into any of the other "animation success" categories. I think we're coming to a point where a non-child friendly, non-Disney/Dreamworks/Pixar film could have a chance, if it was marketed carefully.
I'm not necessarily saying EG could or should be that movie. But I don't think it's as impossible as it might have been ten years ago.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sterling: FF was sort of worth watching for the technology...
For about ten minutes. Then I got the strong urge to perform percussive maintenance on said technology.
But, hey, at least we got a really hot looking wallpaper of Aki Ross in a bikini out of it, so it wasn't a total wash.
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