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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Song of Ice and Fire question (Page 3)

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Author Topic: Song of Ice and Fire question
Juxtapose
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I find it plausible that Syrio is alive. The evidence that he is Jaqen, though, is pretty non-existent. The biggest thing going for this theory is that there isn't compelling evidence against it.

0Megabyte, [Big Grin]

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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
I have a feeling that Mr. Syrio is still alive and well and will make himself known to Arya in time. There was never a body or proof of his death! Syrio is way too awesome to die! I have a feeling he might actually be Jaqen H'ghar, I guess we will see!

I had never considered that he might be Jaqen H'ghar, but I find it bizarre that Ser Meryn could have defeated Syrio, given that Syrio had access to the weapons of the fallen Lannister guardsmen.
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scifibum
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I figured since Meryn wasn't dead that meant Syrio was.
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Geraine
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I don't know. They never mentioned that Syrio died, only that he gave him trouble.

My hunch is that Syrio got away somehow and Meryn is too proud (or scared) to admit it, for fear of what Cersei will do to him. (Call him incompetant, strip him of his title, etc.) He then continues to look over Arya as Jaqen

Or perhaps he surrenders and asks to the take the black, and poses as Jaqen at that time.

Jaqen changed faces to a guy with a strange nose and black curly hair after he helped Arya at Harrenhal. That is significant, as in the prologue of book four the Alchemist that Pate met also had a strange nose and black curly hair. Interesting!!!!

I guess there are some others that believe the kindly man Arya meets in Braavos is Syrio, as he uses a lot of the same phrases that Syrio did.

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umberhulk
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Nevermind.

[ June 28, 2011, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: umberhulk ]

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
I figured since Meryn wasn't dead that meant Syrio was.

That was what I'd always thought too, but on this most recent reread I started questioning it.

I kind of hope that he isn't Jaquen H'ghar, honestly. Not everybody has to secretly be somebody else, you know?

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scifibum
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*nod* It's a little too tied-up-with-a-bow (if even for just that branch of the story) if he is.

Jaqen could have his own awesome story.

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Juxtapose
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quote:
My hunch is that Syrio got away somehow
I was given to understand that the First Sword of Braavos does not run. [Wink]
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Lyrhawn
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Being a Braavo and being a Faceless Man are two totally different disciplines though. At least, that's how it struck me. I don't think they are the same, nor do I want them to be. I would like to believe that Syrio is alive, I think we all would because he's a favorite. However, why would Syrio have escaped, followed her, kept himself hidden all that time, and then reveal himself to her in Braavos? Maybe they'll just run into each other on accident, but him as a guardian angel or as Jaqen seem farfetched. I think we'll run into Jaqen again, for sure, but I don't know who Arya will run into.
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Rakeesh
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I have no trouble imagining Syrio as alive or dead. Alive, because lots of weapons. Dead, because how far would innumerable other Lannister or Lannister-auxiliaries really be from that fight?
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0Megabyte
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I agree with the people who think Syrio is dead.

It's not nice. It's not happy in the least. But there's something satisfying about it. In any case:

I noticed in the tv version of his final scene that, after Arya left, Syrio looked kinda scared. Did anyone else notice that?

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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by Juxtapose:
quote:
My hunch is that Syrio got away somehow
I was given to understand that the First Sword of Braavos does not run. [Wink]
You are correct. It's really more of a bunny hop.
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
I have no trouble imagining Syrio as alive or dead. Alive, because lots of weapons. Dead, because how far would innumerable other Lannister or Lannister-auxiliaries really be from that fight?

+1
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Juxtapose
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quote:
Originally posted by Jake:
quote:
Originally posted by Juxtapose:
quote:
My hunch is that Syrio got away somehow
I was given to understand that the First Sword of Braavos does not run. [Wink]
You are correct. It's really more of a bunny hop.
I wouldn't have been able to picture this before watching the TV series. Now I can't stop.
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Jake
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[Big Grin]
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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
I have no trouble imagining Syrio as alive or dead. Alive, because lots of weapons. Dead, because how far would innumerable other Lannister or Lannister-auxiliaries really be from that fight?

There's also the fact that the Kingsguard is supposed to consist of some of the best knights of Westeros. We learn that many of them are bad or at least highly corruptible men, but I'd think the Kingsguard appointed/kept by Robert would be good fighters. Syrio is scary fast and dangerous, but Meryn is armored and supposed to be one of the best, so...*shrug*. It always seemed plausible to me that he just killed Syrio.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Good point...I guess we just don't know what happened to him, either way. I hope we get to find out (although if he died, I can't imagine how we would get that info).
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scifibum
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After this much intervening story, it'd require some contrivance to tell us for sure he's dead, certainly. [Smile] Maybe GRRM doesn't know either at this point.
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Wingracer
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He doesn't have to have run to still be alive. He could have been injured, perhaps knocked unconscious from a blow to the face. Out of respect for his brave fight, allowed to join the watch instead of being executed.

Still, I think he's dead. George doesn't seem to like keeping characters alive.

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0Megabyte
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To be fair, what reason would they have to keep him alive?

This is Meryn Trant we're talking about. He's the sort of guy to gleefully stand by and help Joffrey abuse a 13 year old girl. There's no way he'd just let Syrio live. It's not in his character.

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Foust
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I just finished Feast last night, and I think the debate about whether or not Syrio is alive is a bit of a wank. One, Martin plays for keeps; no one just slips out of an impossible situation. Two, it would make for terrible story telling. Lady Stark has already been resurrected, a second you-thought-they-were-dead-but-you-thought-wrong character would be ridiculous.
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Juxtapose
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Really? You're going to be pissed when the Hound comes back then. [Big Grin]

And the Mountain.

And Viserys.

I might be joking about one of those.

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Rakeesh
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Wasn't Meryn a political, Lannister-friendly appointee? I can't remember, except that I remember thinking, "He might not actually be to the Kingsguard standard of badass." That was the only thing which let me credit a *very* slight chance Syrio might be alive-that the fight would be over quickly.
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Kwea
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lol
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Foust
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Maybe I missed his death, but I thought the Mountain was still alive, in the creepy fake-meister's dungeon? There's also no suggestion that Viseryrs is dead. As for the Hound, the only claim he's dead comes from a secondary character that we've only seen once.

Anyone of those characters could come back, just like Davos could still be alive, whatever the Freys say.

Syrio's situation was and is not analogous.

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Aris Katsaris
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Unless Martin intended to leave it ambiguous there were a number of ways he could have made Syrio's death appear certain to us -- e.g. Sansa recognizing the head of her sister's dancing teacher on a pike, or Meryn Trant (or someone) actually mentioning Syrio got killed. Such a reference could also have been done and even more easily in the tv series itself (as we could have seen his head without anyone but the viewers needing to recognize it); but it was left just as ambiguous there.

As absence of evidence is evidence of absence, I'm inclined to give Syrio about 50-50 odds of having survived.

If he hasn't survived, I'm guessing there will eventually come a time where it'll be a plot-point for Arya (and the readers) to falsely hope he has survived.

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scifibum
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quote:
One, Martin plays for keeps; no one just slips out of an impossible situation. Two, it would make for terrible story telling. Lady Stark has already been resurrected...
Um...
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Stone_Wolf_
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All it takes is Martin to have someone say "They made Bob the new first sword of Bravos" in passing and wha la, closure.
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Carrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Foust:
There's also no suggestion that Viseryrs is dead.

Aside from the molten gold poured over his head - on-page, no less, the burning flesh, and everyone declaring him dead?

Yeah. Viserys is dead.

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Geraine
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As is The Mountain... Cersei pretty much confirms this, as does the Maester she is speaking to.

Syrio wasn't in an impossible situation. He had just taken down the rest of Meryn's group of knights with a wooden sword. Taking one more down is hardly impossible odds. The only mention of Syrio after Arya left was a comment made that Syrio had given Meryn trouble. That doesn't confirm his death, nor does it confirm he still lives.

I believe he is alive, though he may not be Jaq'en. I do however believe Jaq'en is the Alchemist.

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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
All it takes is Martin to have someone say "They made Bob the new first sword of Bravos" in passing and wha la, closure.

Syrio wasn't the First Sword of Braavos when he was in King's Landing. That was a position he had formerly held.
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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
Syrio wasn't in an impossible situation. He had just taken down the rest of Meryn's group of knights with a wooden sword. Taking one more down is hardly impossible odds.

While I agree with your larger point--the more I think about it, the more likely I think it is that Syrio survived--it's worth pointing out that the fighters accompanying Ser Meryn were just guardsmen, not nights, and were all relatively lightly armored. Ser Meryn was a knight, and though somewhat slow was accomplished enough to be a member of the Kingsguard, and was wearing full plate. He's a tougher nut to crack by orders of magnitude than were the guardsmen.

[ June 30, 2011, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]

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Juxtapose
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Foust, I'm curious why you think the Hound's situation is not analagous to Syrio's. In terms of trying to determine unlikely survivors, they seem fairly similar to me.
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Xavier
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Well for one, there's actually evidence that the Hound is still alive, while none exists for Syrio.

I'm fairly certain that Syrio is dead, and am similarly pretty certain that Sandor is alive.

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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Xavier:
Well for one, there's actually evidence that the Hound is still alive, while none exists for Syrio.

I'm fairly certain that Syrio is dead, and am similarly pretty certain that Sandor is alive.

Sandor was gravely injured at the time Arya left him, Syrio was not. I thought it was pretty clear in the 4th book that the person claiming to be the Hound was not actually Sandor.

Syrio may very well be dead, I just don't think a ninja assassin of his caliber could be taken down by Meryn so easily [Smile]

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Juxtapose
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Right, but Foust seemed to be arguing that Syrio had to be dead because having another character return from the dead (figuratively) would be poor form after Cat's ressurection.

I was pointing out that Martin has already done this with the Mountain, likely the Hound as well. I WAS joking about Viserys.

My primary point, which I didn't make well, is that lady Stark's ressurection isn't evidence of Syrio's fate one way or another. I really think the story is done with him, which is saddening. Ialways loved him.

The fact of the matter though, is that Syrio served two purposes to the plot. He gave Arya the tools she needed to survive her initial predicament, and he introduced her to the true seeing. She has new teachers now, and I expect she'll be learning deadlier things than swordplay.

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Geraine
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And it looks like 180 people got the new book already due to Amazon screwing up. I'd stay away from any GRRM fan pages for the next couple of weeks.

Oh, and 4chan. I'm pretty sure everyone here is too intelligent to go to that website, but apparently there is someone in /tv/ that got it early and is scanning and posting each page individually.

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Juxtapose
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Sam kills Daenerys. Jon runs off with Nymeria.

Hodor sits the Iron Throne.

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Xavier
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quote:
I thought it was pretty clear in the 4th book that the person claiming to be the Hound was not actually Sandor.
Yep, that'd be Rorge, one of the three saved by Arya.

However, it was also strongly hinted that while "the Hound" is dead, Sandor Clegane is alive and well (having joined a monastery after they treated his wounds).

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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Foust:
Maybe I missed his death, but I thought the Mountain was still alive, in the creepy fake-meister's dungeon? There's also no suggestion that Viseryrs is dead. As for the Hound, the only claim he's dead comes from a secondary character that we've only seen once.

Anyone of those characters could come back, just like Davos could still be alive, whatever the Freys say.

Syrio's situation was and is not analogous.

I think you need to reread the books a bit. Drogo poured molten good onto Visery's head, killing him, remember?

You are right, the Mountain is dying, and the magester can't save him.....but there are clear indications that after death he will be animated as a zombie of sorts.

Edited for clarification....that first sentence sounded snotty when I reread it, and I didn't mean it to. These books are some of the larger, more intricate books I have ever read, and I read probably 50-100 books a year. I have had to reread it several times, and I STILL keep finding new things. [Big Grin]

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Xavier:
quote:
I thought it was pretty clear in the 4th book that the person claiming to be the Hound was not actually Sandor.
Yep, that'd be Rorge, one of the three saved by Arya.

However, it was also strongly hinted that while "the Hound" is dead, Sandor Clegane is alive and well (having joined a monastery after they treated his wounds).

Really? I'll have to re-read that part.
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Geraine
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Here is an off the wall question....

I was reading the 4th book and the prologue has Pate in it. At the end of the prologue it makes it pretty clear that the Alchemist killed him.

But then about 50% of the way through the book Cersei is talking about Tommen's whipping boy, who is named Pate. I assume Pate is just a common name, but does anyone remember if there is any indication that this Pate is the same as the ony in the Prologue?

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Noemon
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What's the one thing that the protagonists in the prologue chapters have in common, Geraine?
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Lyrhawn
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Hey that one guy survived into a following chapter before dying. [Smile]
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0Megabyte
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Geraine: It's probably a faceless man. Very probably Jaqen.
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Foust
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
One, Martin plays for keeps; no one just slips out of an impossible situation. Two, it would make for terrible story telling. Lady Stark has already been resurrected...
Um...
Yes... hence it would be dumb for it to happen twice. This is exactly my point.

quote:
Aside from the molten gold poured over his head - on-page, no less, the burning flesh, and everyone declaring him dead?

Yeah. Viserys is dead.

My mistake, I was thinking Varys the Spider when I said that. Stupid names with their Vs and their Ys and their Ss.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
What's the one thing that the protagonists in the prologue chapters have in common, Geraine?

Well when you put it like *that*...odds on which protagonist character ain't actually dead, or that one of 'em will live in upcoming books?
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Frisco
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Through a crazy, mixed up series of unlikely events, all the prologue characters end up North of the wall, meet some Others, and come back as wights to take revenge on their killers!

It'll be a Season 7 Special Edition DVD/Blu-Ray combo pack only episode.

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Foust:
quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
One, Martin plays for keeps; no one just slips out of an impossible situation. Two, it would make for terrible story telling. Lady Stark has already been resurrected...
Um...
Yes... hence it would be dumb for it to happen twice. This is exactly my point.

I disagree. It would be bad storytelling to arbitrarily make resurrection a one-time-only thing - why can't it happen again? He uses it again or he doesn't, as he pleases, but he should have a better reason than "well if I do it again, that would be dumb." He presumably has some idea in his head about how this magic works, and why/whether it would work in other circumstances, and whether any other instances might be likely in the threads of the story.

And also: he's resurrected at least two (although we only find that out about Beric after the first few resurrections).

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Lyrhawn
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There are rules for resurrection. Thoros resurrected Beric, but Beric had to sacrifice himself for Lady Stark.

It seems like the Red Priests of Myr hold the keys, but even then, it's not fool proof, and it can't be done willy nilly, or Beric AND Stark would be alive. We never actually found out what happened to Thoros.

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