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I say, one thing that always bugged me was the disparity between the Stark boys and girls. It's like, the Stark's motto should be "Winter is coming...unless you're a girl, then don't worry about it. You should be Lady Prissypants."
The direct cause of Ned dying came about because Sansa was not only not trained for hard times and tough thinking, but actively encouraged away from it.
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Even the Starks can't escape societal rules and gender norms, though, Arya tries pretty hard. The Starks simply babied the girls too much. Ned had a soft spot.
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I think Cat raised them as southern ladies (or tried to in Arya's case), because that's what she was and knows.
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Makes you wonder a bit about Ned's mom, or Lyanna.
More and more I'd love to read a prequel that details the rebellion, Lyanna and Rhaegar. With every snippet, I become more enamored with that story than this one.
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Speaking of Stark ladies, I can't wait to meet the She-Wolves of Winterfell in Dunk and Egg 4.
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Belle, I found myself thinking about your response to the book on and off last night and this morning. It's so different from mine.
quote:Originally posted by Belle: [QB] I feel a bit cheated...I mean, I was very angry when the story I thought I was promised - the Stark family struggling against Winter and the rest of the kingdom - didn't materialize.
When it became clear that this was not what the story was actually going to be, I was delighted. Don't get me wrong--I was upset by Lady's death, and even more upset by Ned's, but I was very happy to be surprised by the story, and to realize that what I'd taken for a fairly predictable, formulaic low-magic fantasy novel...wasn't.
quote:But as others have already said, so many plot lines, so many new characters...
It's certainly a complex story, and I can't even imagine trying to juggle so many characters as a writer, but as a reader I haven't really found them overwhelming. I was a bit put off by the new characters in Feast my first time through, but on rereading it they didn't bother me.
quote:Originally posted by Belle: I don't read books to find out what the horrors of war would be like in a feudal society.
If there's going to be a war, I find it refreshing to have it depicted realistically. It's good to have it not be glossed over for a change, or have the combatants not be given better-than-is-realistic natures for a change, I think.
quote:When I'm not reading for work, I like to use books as escapism - it's one reason I love sci fi and fantasy - it's a different world and it doesn't feel anything like mine. Those parts of ASOIAF I love. I love the dragons, the Others, the Wall, etc.
Interestingly, I have often said in the past that I wish there were less magic in Martin's world, and that I felt a little dismayed that it's no longer just flickering in the reader's peripheral vision. That isn't to say that I don't love books that involve strong fantasy elements; it's just that the first book read so much like historical fiction set in an imaginary-but-realistic world, and worked so well as that, that I was disappointed when it started to move away from that (not that there weren't fantasy elements from the start, of course, but they were handled with a light touch, and didn't directly intrude into the narrative much).
quote:I don't want to see the realistic horrors of base human nature. I'm a teacher in an urban high school. I see enough of the sad effects of humans being terrible to each other. I don't want to experience it when I read.
That's what it boils down to, really. I'm enjoying seeing a fantasy novel that includes that. It's absolutely fair that you don't, and just as you don't judge people who enjoy the series, I don't judge you for disliking it, but for me it's exactly what I want to be reading. As you say, there are stories enough for all of us to find things that are to our liking.
[Edit - I'm curious--what do you think of Rothfuss' stuff, Belle? He subverts fantasy tropes pretty thoroughly as well, but does so in a way that I think might be more palatable to you.]
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Jake, I agree with you on your analysis. It's obvious both of us like different types of stories, and are comfortable with "live and let live."
I love Rothfuss. I love Rothfuss not only for the story, but his writing is exceptional. His writing is beautiful in a way...it has a richness that I enjoy. The man is not just a skillful storyteller but a gifted writer. Lois McMaster Bujold is another I put in that category. I love how she can set a scene in just a few lines yet it is fully realized, rich and detailed.
At any rate, I admire Martin's ability to hold the many story lines together in his head, even if it doesn't seem to be translating well to the reader yet. Perhaps I didn't give Feast a chance - I read it once and was so disappointed it never gained a re-read from me.
I tend toward more light-hearted fare, I guess. One of my favorites right now is Kevin Hearne's Iron Druid series, which is totally fun and entertaining. But, I don't mind reading about some character deaths, and some "darkness" is part of the world and I don't read straight romance with it's always happy-happy endings because it's too unrealistic. But, I do want an overall positive spin to my books just because I want to set the book down and feel better for having read it, not depressed. It's fascinating, really, to examine why we read and what we are hoping for the experience.
I don't want it too positive, but I don't want it too far in the other direction either. I'm looking for a balance, with it skewed toward happier endings, I suppose. For example, look at Mistborn:
**Mild Spoilers for Sanderson's Mistborn series** * * * * I didn't understand why people were upset at the ending. It felt right to me. Yes, there was loss, and sadness, but the overall result was positive and the losses felt like a necessary sacrifice, because great evil is not defeated without sacrifice. * * * * End Spoilers
Wow, Jake, now you have me really examining why I feel the way I do, LOL! It's fun, though.
So, to sum up, here's what I think about my reading tastes:
I want a story that takes me to another world, or at least one sufficiently different from my own. I want there to be conflict, and struggle, and people who overcome that. There can be loss, there can be death and suffering, but it all must be shown to be worth it - to be a necessary part of the struggle. I'm losing patience with Martin because it's too much wrapped up in the suffering and the death and the loss and I don't have faith that it will be shown to be worth it. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong, and if that is so, I'll buy Mr. Martin's books and read them and recommend them to others the way I did after the first two books, and the way I recommend Mistborn now.
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Against my better judgment, I took a peek at this little Q&A, and it a neat little blurb. No spoilers, the reviewer is basically just saying that there are some major revelations, plot twists, cliffhangers both answered and posed, and the reviewer ranks it third out of the series, ahead of Clash and Feast.
In other words, for most people, it looks like it won't be a disappointment.
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You know, I've already pre-ordered my copy on Amazon. So if this thing isn't a blow-out massive best-seller, it ain't my fault. xD
Anyway. In retrospect, the thing about Feast I liked the most was all the new characters. Returning to the Iron Islands as someone other than Theon was great, especially with the cliffhanger ending. And seeing Dorne for the first time was good too, and I enjoyed seeing the set-up going on there.
Of course, the best things about these two stories was that they suggested what was going to happen in Dance, with characters meeting Dany and new plots going to her. They kind of, ultimately, tied things back together in a book that wasn't very well tied.
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The two things I liked the most about Feast were the focuses on Dorne and the Iron Islands. I found that shocking because the Iron Islands were totally uninteresting to me until we got into Damphair's POV and learned more about it. Dorne was fascinating from the get go. I feel like Martin dropped a novel's worth of details and new characters on us, like with the Sand Snakes, and then didn't cover really any of it. That was frustrating, but I hope for more later. It was all fascinating.
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Dorne doesn't work for me, I have to admit; I consider that entire part of the planet to be an irrelevant distraction at this point. But perhaps we'll get to see Dany completely destroy it, which will at least justify some of the time put into it.
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In fairness, pretty much everything that's happened with Dany for three novels has had nothing to do with the entire rest of the novel. We let it go, of course, because there's sort of a tacit agreement between the reader and Martin that at some point, she'll become relevant and play a more integrated role, but it's one hell of a buildup.
Not sure why Dany would destroy Dorne. The only reason I can think to is because Dorne was the last kingdom to bend the knee to the Targaryens, but, on the other hand, they're also the most likely to team up with Dany given their combined anger over what happened to Elia and Rhaegar. It would seem she has much bigger fish to fry.
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Yeah, I mean, the whole point of the Dorne thing was to set up it's now inevitable war against King's Landing. Myrcella's disfigurement may well be the trigger.
Furthermore, combining that plot thread with the revelation that Quentin Martell is going to try to get Dany on their side, and you have a very convenient path to get Dany to Westeros: through an alliance with Dorne, as thy share the goal of destroying the Lannisters. And everyone else.
Basically, what's coming is The War of the Five Kings 2: Electric Boogaloo: The War of the Three Queens. (that's kinda what Petyr said in Sansa's last Feast chapter, anyway.)
Of course, I am sure there will be complications on this path. One of whom is named Victarion Grayjoy, and another is that Valyrian horn.
Also, the whole kingsmoot thing must surely tie in to the return of Theon as main character #4. Conservation of detail (ha!) being what it is.
Basically, from where I stand, those chapters are the most important in Feast, and will almost certainly be worth it both in Dance and in Winds.
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Some of them I understand, but cutting Craster? What will Sam do beyond the wall? Cutting the Blackfish (even though he didn't show up on the HBO Tully family tree and will probably be cut out anyhow, despite being my favorite minor character)? The Red Wedding and Siege of Riverrun will be boring affairs, indeed.
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They can totally cut Craster. Gilly can be a refugee from some other wildling's household. The mutiny can happen when men are too afraid to stand and fight the Others, instead of over sausage.
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So I noticed something....strange while reading A Feast for Crows. Gregor Clegane is supposedly dead, with his skull being sent to Dorne.
Cersei has been talking to Qyburn about some experiment that he is working on in extreme secrecy. Cersei keeps giving Qyburn people for him to take down into the dungeons to experiment on. When Tommen was fascinated with Loras, Cersei mentioned it to Qyburn, who said that he would soon have someone better for Tommen to look up to, but that he couldn't tell her who yet. Qyburn said he will have unquestionable devotion to Tommen and Cersei. Cersei also ordered a suit of armor that the blacksmiths told her would be too heavy for any man to wear.
Damnit, I think Qyburn is stitching together The Mountain using other peoples body parts..... I think this sets it up so that Sandor can finally kill his brother, assuming he is alive. Hopefully not until after Un-Gregor goes on a murderous rampage though. Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: Worse? I'm sure you meant to say better.
Can it be both?
Worse for everyone in Westeros.
Better on the awesomeness factor.
Though I'm kind of leary that so many characters we thought to be dead may end up coming back. I half expect Ned to return in the last book as a wight with the way things are going.
And for some strange reason, whenever I think about Zombie Gregor and Qyburn, I keep imagining Qyburn yelling "Terrible news, everyone, Rotface is dead! But great news everyone, he left behind plenty of ooze for me to use! Whaa...? I'm a poet, and I didn't know it? Astounding!"
Ah Professor Putricide, you are missed. Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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It isn't Zombie Gregor, it's FrankenGregor.
I'll be pretty surprised if Sandor takes up arms against him, though. He's off in a monastery on an island well away from King's Landing, and I suspect that he's there to stay. I could easily be wrong, but I don't expect that we'll see much more of him.
I agree that Craster can be cut, but I don't see how Vargo Hoat possibly can.
Belle, it is fun, isn't it, turning this kind of stuff over in your head and figuring out exactly why you like what it is you like? You and I have quite a bit of overlap in what we enjoy. I'm not somebody that has to have every story be bleak (I'm looking at you, Raja!), though I do enjoy that now and then. What do you think of, say, Shakespeare's tragedies, or Euripides' (or Sophocles' or Aeschylus'--I just happen to like Euripides more than the other two)?
In any case, we share a fondness for Rothfuss's work. Have you ever had the good fortune to go to a signing of his? He's an incredibly engaging speaker.
Have you ever read Daniel Abraham's Long Price Quartet? It's fantastic, and I suspect that it'd be up your avenue.
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Some of them I understand, but cutting Craster? What will Sam do beyond the wall? Cutting the Blackfish (even though he didn't show up on the HBO Tully family tree and will probably be cut out anyhow, despite being my favorite minor character)? The Red Wedding and Siege of Riverrun will be boring affairs, indeed.
Write a workaround, I don't much care about Craster. But the Blackfish is my fave secondary character, and a total badass! I disapprove.
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Personally, I think Craster is a perfect character on which to hang a single, Sam-centered episode of the show. Since TV series actually need self-contained episodes that focus on the main characters every now and then, even if the main "plot" isn't advanced, the removal of the Craster storyline -- with its somewhat unusual "and here's a backwoods hick horror movie story inserted really quickly into this fantasy novel" vibe -- would be disappointing. On the other hand, the Blackfish (while cool) doesn't bring anything interesting to the table from a story perspective.
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How many episodes are they going to have for season 2? If it's only 10 there's no time to devote an entire episode to that story, good and useful as it would be.
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quote:As producer David Benioff recently said:...b.) we have about 540 minutes to tell the entire story each season. And you can only go back and forth between so many characters before it all starts to feel so diffused that you lose track of what's going on and you lose touch with the central characters.
Ten 54 minute episodes seems right.
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While they can cut Crastor out, I'm concerned about Gilly. Gilly was a girl that was married to her own father, and because of that she was..... I don't want to say damaged because that is the wrong word. Scarred maybe. She did not trust men. I guess they could just come upon her as the only survivor of a village destroyed by wildlings, and say they raped her, but I think I'd rather have the whole Crastor thing. It helps show how passionate and caring Sam is.
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There was talk when the show was first being considered of having the second season be 12 or 14 episodes to try and cover the extra material. There was also talk of splitting the third book into two separate seasons. It would appear that at least for Clash, they decided not to go that route. One hopes that for Storm, they really realize that it will require a lot more than 10 episodes if you want to get anything close to a good story out of it.
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Yeah, every single SoIaF book is on the best sellers list at the same time. And has been for over a month. Come Tuesday, half of the list will be his books. That's just ridiculous.
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Is it often that old books like this become bestsellers for multiple weeks, so many years after publication?
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quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: Is it often that old books like this become bestsellers for multiple weeks, so many years after publication?
Yes and no. They don't usually pop up out of the blue but if something draws attention to them (movie, TV series) then yes, they often will jump to the top.
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Heading to the bookstore soon to get a copy. Yeah I know, old fashioned ink on paper. Does that make me an old fart?
Posts: 891 | Registered: Feb 2010
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I have people in town. When it's just me again, I'll read it...
Actually, I might wait until after the Harry Potter movie. Harry Potter, Torchwood, and Dance with Dragons all in the same week. It's a geek overload.
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Got it. Still need to finish re-reading the last couple chapters of Feast first though. Would have finished that already but had to put brakes on my truck and take it in for an inspection. Don't you just hate it when real life intrudes on your reading?
As for geek overload, yeah I suspect I'll be reading it in the theater while waiting for Potter to start.
But then, Potter might confuse the heck out of me now that I have read Methods of Rationality. I might not be able to keep the two stories separate anymore. Posts: 891 | Registered: Feb 2010
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I get back from vacation on Thursday, and Dance will be waiting in the mail for me. But, I was in the middle of reading clash when I left, so I might finish that, then try to blow through storm and feast. I want to be totally in the some when I start, even if it means an extra few days of waiting.
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I hear you, Lyrhawn. I spent the last month or so catching up on the series for just that reason. When I finished Feast last week I wasnted to dive into the Dunk & Egg novellas, just to stay in Westros until I could start in on Dance, but I apparently loaned out my first Legends anthology, so no luck there.
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Spoilers below...no really - heed my warning. Unless you have the read the book or are like me, and only planning to read spoilers, do not read below. * * * * * * * * SPOILERS - LAST WARNING!!!!
I am so, so, so glad I didn't waste any money on this book. I've now read spoiler recaps of every chapter and a confirmed in my belief that Martin is deranged, sick, and only interested in seeing just how far he can take something. Killing Jon? What? He and Dany were the only reason for me to keep reading at all - the idea that Jon is the Prince that was Promised, etc. With that gone, there are, for me, no redeeming features in the story at all. What is Martin's deal? I mean, really.
Sorry, had to rant. And I know I'm a heretic, only reading spoilers, but I wasn't sure I wanted to give Martin any money, and I am glad I followed through with that. * * * * * * * END SPOILERS
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SPOILERS * * * * * * * * * I'm fairly certain that Jon is not dead (well, not out of the story. He may be "dead" in some sense, but I believe he will retain a narrative agency that is a continuation of his previous narrative agency).
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