posted
Strider was actively demanding that AH admit his fears were irrational, not asking him to admit his facts were bogus, that's why I said something.
Also, AH wasn't discussing the overall safety of planes vs cars, he was talking about the fatality of the crashes.
Yes people should admit when something they have said is crap, but I do draw the line about demanding people admit their fears are irrational.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Maybe you have some conception of what it means to be irrational that gives it a stronger negative and personal connotation than is actually meant by me?
The point is, acting based on false facts is not irrational. It's rational in light of your knowledge. Though, using false facts as a post hoc rationalization for an emotion is somewhat problematic (it's not clear whether AH is doing this or not, all we have at this point is correlation, not a causal story of his acquiring a fear of flying). In either case, when those facts are corrected, either you change your behavior/judgment accordingly, i.e. - AH can say, "wow, okay, you guys are right, I no longer have a fear of flying." That would be one rational response. Or he can say, "wow, okay, you guys are right, air travel is safer, but I still have a fear of flying, either because my fear of flying is unrelated to those facts, or because this deep seated emotional response is laid down in my neurophysiology and cannot be gotten rid of so easily." That would be a rational assessment of the situation, but would now leave the behavior in light of that information as being irrational. It would be an acknowledgement of being irrational. I don't see this as the personal affront you are making it out to be. (Maybe you want to say that our definition of rationality is problematic if it doesn't take into account the bodily dispositions of real human agents? I'm not entirely unagreeable to that point of view)
Or you can ignore the new facts, or shift the conversation to tangentially related, but not relevant issues and deny the charge of irrationality. This now displays a second level of irrationality.
It could be that AH accepted the facts, and just didn't want to talk about that aspect anymore, and moved on to talking about the reality of his emotional response to flying. But if that's the case, he wasn't clear about that. Which is why I made that other post.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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I might suggest you review AH's initial post which you seem to be saying he is claiming that air travel is not as safe as car travel.
From my reading of it, he was simply sharing his emotional response that it is comforting thought that if you are in a car crash it seems more survivable/controllable, where as in a plane, one might acutely feel the lack of control when it comes to your life and death.
I understand why people would think that he was saying that planes are not as safe, but I'm not seeing that from his post, just him sharing his feelings on the mater, no claim to fact.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
whoops, I missed AH's response in between my response to you last page, where he said he didn't care about being irrational. That's a fair response, and what I mentioned above as being an option.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
It's not particularly irrational to fear a lower probability event with a higher death rate than a higher probability event with a lower death rate eg More likely to die in your home than from being struck by lightning. People still go inside when lightning is near.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Is the death rate of plane crashes higher than that of car crashes? I only glanced at samp's link, but I thought it was addressing that point.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Though I actually question your assertion. It depends on in what way you mean "fear" in that sentence.
Take shark attacks. If you are attacked by a shark it's incredibly dangerous. And there are two things to fear about shark attacks. You can fear "shark attacks" in general. Or you can say that being attacked by a shark is a fearful experience. People fear the former far out of proportion to the probability of the actual event occurring. Separately, the act of imagining the experience of being attacked by a shark may accurately reflect, and probably even under-reflects, the actual amount of fear that you would feel in that situation.
But it's still proper for us to say that, in general, the population has an irrational fear of shark attacks, even if their conception of the fear they would experience during a shark attack is accurate. Those are different questions.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Long ago, my brother and I stopped saying "Have a safe flight" to each other. After all, there's really almost nothing one can do to influence the safety of a flight. So now we say, "Don't trip at the airport!"
Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Or if you're flying out of Portland, "Don't strip at the airport."
I think the thought of falling out of the sky is a bit horrifying, which probably drives a lot of the fear. On the other hand, I'm much more nervous driving on two-lane highways. It isn't about control, for me, I think -- I don't trust my abilities and feel safer as a passenger than as a driver.
Sam, congratulations on extinguishing some of your phobias. I'm working on getting rid of my fear of bees, and it's a great feeling not experiencing panic that I know is irrational. By the way, AH (and others who want to avoid medications), you don't necessarily need to take benzodiazepines or any anti-anxiety drugs to treat phobias. It's pretty amazing how well phobia desensitization works.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I actually feel loads safer in a plane than I do driving. Even when we hit turbulence I'm like "ooh, this is kind of fun."
On the other hand, I get queasy at the thought of driving. Not enough to stop driving but just that quick half a second pause where I'm like "I really don't want to be in a car."
I like not being the one responsible for my safety. I also trust the pilots more than I trust the morons on the road. The DMV will give any half-wit teenager a driver's license and the majority of adults seem to act as if they were never taught how to signal or check their side mirrors.
In the last year, two of my coworkers (and we're a small location with about 25 people on staff) were in serious car accidents. The first had to be air lifted from the scene in a helicopter and spent months in and out of surgery to repair all the bone damage to his skull. The second happened just two weeks ago. She actually broke her back and while she's walking with the aid of a brace, she's got a long recovery ahead of her.
My own accident a few years ago was caused by a careless driver who couldn't handle wet road conditions. Thankfully, the large amount of water in the ditch stopped my car from careening right through the median and hitting incoming traffic that was traveling 70 mph on the highway.
Personally, I'm irrationally terrified of spiders and needles (though after my last trip to the hospital, the latter is now a rational fear.) I can totally understand why someone would be afraid of flying but I'd personally take it over driving any day of the week.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Why is the needle fear now rational? Did you experience extravasation, blood borne disease, or a waking dream where you are serving as a practice dummy for student phlebotomists?
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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