Hatrack River
Home   |   About Orson Scott Card   |   News & Reviews   |   OSC Library   |   Forums   |   Contact   |   Links
Research Area   |   Writing Lessons   |   Writers Workshops   |   OSC at SVU   |   Calendar   |   Store
E-mail this page
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Switching word order

   
Author Topic: Switching word order
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What is with these dang Americans and switching the order of verb phrases? For example:

quote:
Unemployment and disorganization still are hallmarks of many towns and cities in Iraq.
Are still, dammit! This is something like the third time I've come across a reversal just today, and it's not as though I've had time to read a lot. Is this supposed to look distinguished, or intellectual, or something? Like bloody Yoda it looks.
Posts: 10593 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Itsame
Member
Member # 9712

 - posted      Profile for Itsame           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What's wrong with switching the order?

Edit: Not only does the reversal not impede communication, it actually serves a useful function. It puts emphasis on the 'still'.

Posts: 2705 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carrie
Member
Member # 394

 - posted      Profile for Carrie   Email Carrie         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Why not just say "remain"?
Posts: 3928 | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JonHecht:
With switching the order what's wrong?

English work that way does not.
Posts: 10593 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Itsame
Member
Member # 9712

 - posted      Profile for Itsame           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It doesn't? That's kind of surprising, since I understood both the original sentence and what you just said without any difficulty.
Posts: 2705 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aros
Member
Member # 4873

 - posted      Profile for Aros           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I guess when used as an adverb, "still" always comes before the verb, except when it is modifying "to be". "Are" is a form of "to be", so you are correct.

I don't know. The confusion is simple, if still always comes before the verb with every other word. <Ex: The Train still hasn't arrived.>

http://www.english-test.net/lessons/50/index.html

Hmm...this only makes sense from a proscritivist standpoint. Real world language use is decriptivist in use of colloquialism. And it does serve a function to reverse the word order (to add emphasis), even if it isn't technically correct.

Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JonHecht:
It doesn't? That's kind of surprising, since I understood both the original sentence and what you just said without any difficulty.

And you also understand, but that not make correct.
Posts: 10593 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aros
Member
Member # 4873

 - posted      Profile for Aros           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah, and the proliferation of adding "y" to nouns, in order to make them adjectives (attributed to Joss Whedon) is incorrect too. But it enlivens the language and makes it more colorful. That's the difference between a living (changing through use) and a dead language.

Oh, if the Welsh only had your problems!!!

I say that King of Men gets defenestrated. We can do it in a very actiony manner. Even though we'll probably hear a lot of grumbleage from him.

Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Itsame
Member
Member # 9712

 - posted      Profile for Itsame           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That one I actually take issue with, since it took me a few seconds to realize what you were trying to say. Again, so long as understanding is not impeded, I'm fine.

There are many cases where it is perfectly acceptable for a noun (or pronoun) to be elliptical as long as the meaning is clear; the sentence you chose just happens to be especially weird because "understand" can be used both transitively and intransitively.

Edit: Never mind about 'understand' being both trans and intrans. I thought about it a bit more and realized that it just seems intransitive sometimes because it is so often used elliptically.

Edit2: Interestingly, I looked it up and some dictionaries mark 'understand' as both trans and intrans, but I really think that this is incorrect, as all the examples that are provided just have implicit objects.

Posts: 2705 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jon Boy
Member
Member # 4284

 - posted      Profile for Jon Boy   Email Jon Boy         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
What is with these dang Americans and switching the order of verb phrases? For example:

quote:
Unemployment and disorganization still are hallmarks of many towns and cities in Iraq.
Are still, dammit! This is something like the third time I've come across a reversal just today, and it's not as though I've had time to read a lot. Is this supposed to look distinguished, or intellectual, or something? Like bloody Yoda it looks.
Putting the adverb before the verb is a weird journalistic tic. Don't ask me why they do it—it's probably based on some faulty idea of what sounds punchier or something. But it produces constructions ranging from mildly awkward to downright awful, such as "Apple Monday announced the new iPhone." Huh? What the heck is Apple Monday? Were they Apple on Monday and some other name on different days of the week?
Posts: 9786 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I will feast on the tears of english prescriptivists.
Posts: 14230 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jon Boy
Member
Member # 4284

 - posted      Profile for Jon Boy   Email Jon Boy         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That doesn't sound like much of a feast. Are tears a good source of protein, carbohydrates, or other nutrients?
Posts: 9786 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Itsame
Member
Member # 9712

 - posted      Profile for Itsame           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Apple Monday announced the new iPhone."
The problem is that it should be "Apple, Monday, announced the new iPhone."

Posts: 2705 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jon Boy
Member
Member # 4284

 - posted      Profile for Jon Boy   Email Jon Boy         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ugh. Still awful.
Posts: 9786 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Emreecheek
Member
Member # 12082

 - posted      Profile for Emreecheek           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Word switching doesn't bother me. It changes the stress.

Those who dislike it are prejudiced against music.

[Razz]

What gets on my nerves is "Everything in the world is not about you." Well, goodness. Surely some things in the world are about me. Like, your sentence. I think what you meant was: "Not everything in the world is about you."

I don't know which is more grammatically sound. But I know which one I understand.

Posts: 183 | Registered: Jun 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Darth_Mauve
Member
Member # 4709

 - posted      Profile for Darth_Mauve   Email Darth_Mauve         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They do it because they sound so much wiser we they sound like Yoda.
Posts: 1867 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
twinky
Member
Member # 693

 - posted      Profile for twinky   Email twinky         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Do it, they do, because wiser, they sound, when sound like Yoda, they do.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Graeme
Member
Member # 12543

 - posted      Profile for Graeme           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Adverbs are actually pretty flexible in terms of order. Actually, adverbs are pretty flexible in terms of order. Adverbs are pretty flexible in terms of order, actually.
Posts: 47 | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan_Frank
Member
Member # 8488

 - posted      Profile for Dan_Frank   Email Dan_Frank         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
Ugh. Still awful.

Are you the one with the pedantry blog? [Big Grin]
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_   Email Stone_Wolf_         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JonHecht:
The problem is that it should be "Apple, Monday, announced the new iPhone."

No, it should be "Monday, Apple announced the new iPhone."
Posts: 5085 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
advice for robots
Member
Member # 2544

 - posted      Profile for advice for robots           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
or!

On Monday, Apple announced the new iPhone.

Posts: 5947 | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jon Boy
Member
Member # 4284

 - posted      Profile for Jon Boy   Email Jon Boy         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
Ugh. Still awful.

Are you the one with the pedantry blog? [Big Grin]
Yup! This does not mean, however, that I am not entitled to have opinions on language.

And anyway, I have facts to back up my opinion. The "[subj] [adv] [verb]" construction is definitely a weird feature of news writing. Notice that almost all of the spoken hits are from TV news:

[subj] *day [verb]
[subj] [adv] [be]

Posts: 9786 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Also I can speak from experience, not only does Jon Boy know how to write, his spoken English is pleasantly accented. He could command the elements if he spoke loudly enough. Fortunately, he is soft-spoken.

[ August 06, 2012, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]

Posts: 14278 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aros
Member
Member # 4873

 - posted      Profile for Aros           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote:
Originally posted by JonHecht:
The problem is that it should be "Apple, Monday, announced the new iPhone."

No, it should be "Monday, Apple announced the new iPhone."
Jon's use of an appositive isn't incorrect. Though I'd say that both sentences are not optimal.
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
APPLE NEW MONDAY RELEASE ANNOUNCE IPHONE GO BUY
Posts: 14230 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2