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Author Topic: Knock-knock-knocking
Stone_Wolf_
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First off, if you did pay attention to circumstances instead of being so stuck in a black and white view of things you would already know that I agree with most of your bullet points.

But let's take it out of the theoretical and put you in my parental shoes for a minute:

Your otherwise kind and loving two and a half year old keeps sitting on your one year old daughter's head and chest, and roughly shoving her to the floor. You have tried explaining it to him, tried time outs, tried removal of privileges. Nothing is working.

What do you do?

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Rakeesh
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O
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Stone_Wolf_
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P.S. My wife and I talked it over and decided to try spanking...one swat with an explanation and a time out.

And it worked!

Spanking worked when other forms failed.

It is not theory that causes me to think what I do, it was necessity and results.

Had other forms of discipline worked, then the least desirable option would not have been tapped.

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Parkour
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Stone wolf discovers the "immediate short term compliance" aspect of spanking. Good job bro!

You totally showed all those pediatricians.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
P.S. My wife and I talked it over and decided to try spanking...one swat with an explanation and a time out.

And it worked!

Spanking worked when other forms failed.

It is not theory that causes me to think what I do, it was necessity and results.

Had other forms of discipline worked, then the least desirable option would not have been tapped.

Honest question: can you describe for me what, given your understanding of reasoning and pediatric study methods available to us, the limitations of your experiment are?
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Stone_Wolf_
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Fracking non parents...I'm not proving a theorem here, I'm keeping my children safe!

This isn't some lab, these are real little people in danger of suffocating because they lack the understanding that some playing is dangerous!

So let's hear it, what would you do in my shoes? Would you risk a tiny chance of emotional issues in the future to prevent the very likely chance of a tiny casket?

Have some kids and then we can talk.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Honest question: can you describe for me what, given your understanding of reasoning and pediatric study methods available to us, the limitations of your experiment are?
Step 1: Start from the assumption that spankings can be divided into two categories: excessive/bad and managed/effective.

Step 2: The study turns out what is put in, and pre-existing idea is confirmed!

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MattP
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"Fracking non parents" is a non-sequitur. I'm a fracking parent, six times over, and I agree with them.

Let's suppose spanking didn't work, but you decided to try waterboarding and, sure enough, it corrected their behavior immediately. Well hey, it's just simulates drowning and the alternative is a "likely chance of a tiny casket." How do you determine when that sort of logic stops justifying an otherwise harmful behavior on your part?

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Stone_Wolf_
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Water boarding, really?

quote:
How do you determine when that sort of logic stops justifying an otherwise harmful behavior on your part?
Uh, sanity? And I don't for a second stipulate that a single controlled swat on a diapered and clothed bottom is "otherwise harmful behavior".

Only one person has ever answered my question of what to do instead of spanking, and it was scholarette with a suggestion of a root cause investigation. So let's hear it you supposed child raising experts, what is the better choice? Because this isn't just a theoretical discussion on the internet on this end.

As to non parents, it's simple, you have more respect from me then these bachelors who feel they have the right to lecture me from a place of utter ignorance beyond some research on the internet. It's much like the difference between battle planning and battle. I don't care that they have a PHD from West Point, none of them has been in a real fight (from what little I know of their real lives).

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
"Fracking non parents" is a non-sequitur. I'm a fracking parent, six times over, and I agree with them.

Let's suppose spanking didn't work, but you decided to try waterboarding and, sure enough, it corrected their behavior immediately. Well hey, it's just simulates drowning and the alternative is a "likely chance of a tiny casket." How do you determine when that sort of logic stops justifying an otherwise harmful behavior on your part?

In this context, it's more than simply a non-sequitur, really. That sort of line is only ever arbitrary anyway. Almost no one, or at least very few people, in the Western world would dispute a non-parent's right to criticize, say, arranged marriages or parental tracking of female children away from professional or independent-geared education. Fewer but still not very many would dispute a non-parent's right and status to criticize, say, no dating of any kind before a child turns 18. So on and so forth.

As for your question, we've seen in this thread (though with only a few people participating overall, much less on each side, it's hardly a good sample) that the answer is: you deny the question is even relevant. Dustin rejected first the notion that the question of whether or not corporal punishment was a good parenting tool was anything but absurd, putting the entire weight of whether to even consider the matter on the other side. Then when presented with sources about as professional, experienced, and knowledgeable as it gets (APA), denied without looking that such studies had relevant insight into his particular circumstances.

The only evidence presented that wasn't purely anecdotal-worthlessly anecdotal, even, and we saw that in how cavalierly he was willing to reject other anecdotal evidence-was a study linked by vegimo. Even there, the assumption that some kinds of corporal punishment were good and effective parenting techniques was overt.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I might well have thought that the delineation between parent and non-parent was arbitrary myself...before I had kids. Just as a fully trained yet untested cadet, might feel about battle hardened vets.

And I have no problem with non-parents criticizing spanking, in general. Where I draw the line is unasked for advice in the form of a command with no interest in any specifics, simply the platitude, that spanking is wrong like slavery and anyone who says otherwise is ignorant and lazy.

Samp might get a bit of traction with his theories on intolerance of bigotry, that by creating a hostile environment for the intolerant he helps make intolerance unacceptable. But that is a discussion of adult behaviors. Not of children, and not of parents who love their children very much and are doing the very best they can. Some tact is required. Some modicum of an empathetic approach.

He and those like him have a bit more wiggle room as they have walked in the shoes of bigots, and chosen to not be bigoted. But being a parent is a whole other world which changes your life in very unexpected ways and is not simply open to outsiders bullying what they think is right without some effort at understanding.

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Samprimary
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Before I propose alternative methods can we shore up whether or not you are still insisting I provide my (non-parent) advice or if you think my (non-parent) advice is invalid? If you think my non-parent advice is invalid, do I have to propose my standpoint to parents and have them vet them for you? Because I am more than welcome to do so.

besides that, I consider your distinction as irrelevant as rakeesh described.

quote:
But that is a discussion of adult behaviors. Not of children, and not of parents who love their children very much and are doing the very best they can.
This is a discussion about adult behaviors too. The parents who love their children are adults. The parent who decides to hit their child is an adult and it is the adult's behavior at issue here.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Your attitude of arrogant command is extra unacceptable as a non-parent (to me). Suggesting alternatives to spanking with a reasoned argument as to why they are superior is not a problem whether you have raised children or not.

Sure, this is a discussion of adult behaviors, but my point was this isn't -only a discussion of adult behaviors-. Had my child responded favorably to more recommended methods of behavior correction and stopped being a danger to my other child, I would not have escalated to a more drastic form of correction.

That's my point, that you might have a leg to stand on when it comes to "beating up on bigots for the good of all" but when it comes to parenting, it is more reactionary to utterly fluid and highly nuanced situations, and taking such a strong black and white view, flat out rejecting all further data just speaks to your lack of real life experience dealing with children.

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scholarette
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You used no positive reinforcement methods so you haven't tried anything. You also could just keep the kids separate. That is what I did when I brought home the dogs and they didn't know what to do with baby. Actually i still do tht with dogs. Sometimes my two kids have to play in separate rooms if they are not playing right.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
You used no positive reinforcement methods so you haven't tried anything. You also could just keep the kids separate. That is what I did when I brought home the dogs and they didn't know what to do with baby. Actually i still do tht with dogs. Sometimes my two kids have to play in separate rooms if they are not playing right.

I think many people forget this aspect of child rearing, or even just child-watching. I know I have at times, looking out for cousins as I've done a lot of for...man, I always forget. Children of cousins are second cousins? Anyway, I'm not sure how much your opinion counts for, being a parent but reaching a dubious conclusion.

I've seen parents forget it too, of course-forgetting that they actually do have control over a child in ways that aren't analogous to dealing with other people, or even older children. As you say, if a given behavior is problematic, the child can be totally removed from it in the short term. Of course then there are also plenty of people who are also very mindful of the extent of their control, to dismaying results.

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scholarette
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Children of your cousins are cousins once removed. You are in different generations. Second cousins share a great grandparent.
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Stone_Wolf_
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We use positive reinforcement all the time! That isn't effective once a problem is upon you, but very good for preventing problems. I'd hate to even consider the difficulties we would be facing if we didn't use positive reinforcement.

Oh, and physically separating them has logistical problems, but worked for short term but offered no permanent solution.

[ November 15, 2012, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]

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Stone_Wolf_
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Attack from behind the veil:

I never said anyone's opinion was invalid for any reason, which you well know. Man it is easy to lie and manipulate when you know you have admin enforced immunity.

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scholarette
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Positive is more tricky once you have a problem, but there are still ways to do it. When I taught, I was only allowed positive feedback and a lot of the kids were monsters. Sometimes it gets very very tricky, but years of practice helps.
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scholarette
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The other question is why Good kid behavin in this way? Unless the answer is the kid is missing on the joys off spankings,you have masked the problem, not resolved.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Positive is more tricky once you have a problem, but there are still ways to do it. When I taught, I was only allowed positive feedback and a lot of the kids were monsters. Sometimes it gets very very tricky, but years of practice helps.

I would put it like: positive feedback is most effective used proactively, but still has use in short-term situations-and negative teqhniques appear to be more effective in short term situations, because most of their gains and most of their losses are short and long term, respectively.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Attack from behind the veil:

I never said anyone's opinion was invalid for any reason, which you well know. Man it is easy to lie and manipulate when you know you have admin enforced immunity.

Stone_Wolf: Knock it off please. Rakeesh is responding to an idea currently being discussed, not you specifically. Further, you are continually responding directly to Rakeesh, I don't appreciate it.

If you think I'm being unfair, please PM me.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Sure, this is a discussion of adult behaviors, but my point was this isn't -only a discussion of adult behaviors-. Had my child responded favorably to more recommended methods of behavior correction and stopped being a danger to my other child, I would not have escalated to a more drastic form of correction.

This is bogus reasoning. You might as well just continue it further. "Had my child responded favorably to spanking, I would not have escalated to using a belt."

Which people have done.

It goes back to my question about if you could determine the limitations of your reasoning as underpinned by your experiment.


quote:
That's my point, that you might have a leg to stand on when it comes to "beating up on bigots for the good of all" but when it comes to parenting, it is more reactionary to utterly fluid and highly nuanced situations, and taking such a strong black and white view, flat out rejecting all further data just speaks to your lack of real life experience dealing with children.
Just in case all the other valid arguments pointing out the nonsequitorial nature of your attempted dismissal of my opinion as being that of a non-parent:

every single aspect of my position on spanking has been adopted, down to the simplest points, from a parent. And if the parent were here right now, she would be speaking to you much more sternly than me. But you didn't need to know that. That defense of the 'authority' of my statement should have been always irrelevant, and people have explained why.

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
The other question is why Good kid behavin in this way?

Shoving to the floor was from frustration, usually when a toy's use was in contention he has learned to seek parental help as a solution.

As to rough housing, they still do, but he now knows to stop as soon as she starts crying. I think the whole face/chest sitting thing was just ignorance, not any real attempt to harm her.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Samp, I've been very clear that it isn't your opinion that I find invalid because of your lack of children, but your approach. You have also never acknowledged neither that I am using spanking in a way -your- study says is ideal and that I have agreed with 90% of your points.

When it comes down to it, you are acting aggressively arrogant and high handed with condemnation about a topic where you are the one who is being a fundamentalist and requiring complete surrender.

What gives you the right to think you have the moral authority to lecture parents so high handedly? Get off your high horse, and try using some gol-ram tact.

It's like someone who has played first person shooters lecturing a war hero on tactics because their friend who served things the same thing.

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Parkour
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:

What gives you the right to think you have the moral authority to lecture parents so high handedly? Get off your high horse, and try using some gol-ram tact.

It's like someone who has played first person shooters lecturing a war hero on tactics because their friend who served things the same thing.

Hahahahaha oh my god. Listen to yourself. Read your own post to yourself.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by Parkour:
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:

What gives you the right to think you have the moral authority to lecture parents so high handedly? Get off your high horse, and try using some gol-ram tact.

It's like someone who has played first person shooters lecturing a war hero on tactics because their friend who served things the same thing.

Hahahahaha oh my god. Listen to yourself. Read your own post to yourself.
Well, that is actually despite its pointed ironic skewering a solid example of the tone problem, I think.

On topic, though, I'm curious-in what circumstances does the study you referenced describe corporal punishment as ideal?

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Parkour
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I'm not invested in the scientific part of the great 'should I smack that ass debate.' I just want to die and come back from the dead after the great tone debate is over.
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Rakeesh
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So there are, in the study you mentioned, circumstances in which corporal punishment is ideal?
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advice for robots
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This might be the passage, from the summary:

"They also identified an optimal type of physical discipline, called conditional spanking, which led to better child outcomes than 10 of 13 alternative disciplinary tactics and produced outcomes equivalent to those of the remaining three tactics.5 Conditional spanking is nonabusive, used when a child responds defiantly to milder disciplinary tactics such as time out (based on research on 2- to 6-year-olds). “Nonabusive” is defined as about 2 open-hand swats to the buttocks when a parent is not angrily out of control. Conditional spanking teaches a child to cooperate with the milder disciplinary tactic, thereby making spanking less necessary in the future."

Apparently, however, the study has already been discredited, according to Samp (see last 2 pages of this thread).

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Samprimary
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I'm actually gonna stick up for it some: "discredited" is something that could happen specifically to this report — I think it is more that the idea, upon aggregate review, has failed to show enough demonstrable traction in studies. As in, if there IS a 'proper' way to hit kids, it is notoriously difficult to determine through longitudinal study, and when layman analysis of 'proper' spanking application is studied methodologically, the kids pretty much always turn out worse than the ones in the group whose parents either don't spank on preference, or were asked to not spank to act as a control.

When the methodological study shows a huge quantity of very difficult to avoid complicating and negative effects from incorporating spanking — even by parents who are very sure that they are doing it 'properly' and 'lovingly,' which are completely avoided by not spanking, versus a handful of studies which indicate that there may be very specific forms of spanking which are maybe about as good as most (but not all) non-spanking punishment forms, the APA has only one real course to take. Follow the model, apply the data, make the recommendation based on the data.

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advice for robots
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If the APA (AAP? American Academy of Pediatrics?) finds that any form of spanking in any circumstance is at best ineffective and at worst detrimental to the kid's development, then yeah, I'm inclined to go along with them. Like I said earlier, I've spanked my kids on very rare occasions when all other warnings, diversions, getting-down-on-your-knees-and-explaining-the-error-of-their-ways-in-little-kid-terms failed and the behavior needed to end and not be repeated; I'm talking on the level of trying repeatedly to open the oven door when dinner's cooking--they're either ultimately deterred by a swat on the bum followed by a loving yet earnest lecture, or by a serious burn and a trip to the hospital, you take your pick. If there is a better way to deter that rare yet inevitable boneheadedness, I'm all for it.

I'd actually like to see the AAP's recommendations against spanking clearly spelled out in terms parents/guardians can use in a variety of common situations--not to prove them wrong but to have some good "alternative" strategies to try the next time my kids try to kill themselves or each other. Maybe they've published them in parenting magazines we don't subscribe to? We've certainly sought out and tried to adopt the best practices we can find in terms of reinforcing positive behavior and administering discipline.

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scholarette
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Advice for robots, that one is easy. Stick them in their room and close the door. Or a playpen, bouncer, crib, whatever contained area there is in your house. If you don't have a contained area, get one.
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Samprimary
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Well, I don't know how competently I can describe the technique before my questions come back in, but in a situation like that (involving our frequent hypothetical foe, the stove) the mom swept into action immediately, pulled the child back and said NO, you do NOT touch that, it is DANGEROUS. expressly and clearly forbid to the child going near the stove again.

I said "you know he's gonna wander near it again, right?" and she said "yeap." She completely anticipated it. essentially all part of the plan, I guess.

Kid got close again, mom immediately swept up the kid and put the kid in a timeout corner, kid lost it because he really really wanted to be in kitchen with mommy, but mommy watched him and put him back in the corner every time he got out of the seat, without wavering, then at the end of the timeout clock put him on bed and explained stove is no no bad. period. You can come back in the kitchen but if you go near stove you get timeout for twice as long and you can't be in the kitchen with mommy anymore.

the more important second half is the positive reinforcement; it's not sufficient to merely tolerate correct behavior and only act on incorrect behavior, you have to reinforce the correct behavior. So the kid got a sandwich cream thingy when he was good and had been in the kitchen for a whole ten minutes without going near the stove horray! and got told how he was doing the RIGHT thing and that was good.

After a few subsequent reinforcements, stove was really seriously not at issue. Another incident involving the kids trying to climb a trellis-like object in the backyard was more difficult to extinguish but managed in pretty much the identical way.

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scholarette
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Also, a lot of your parenting techniques shouldn't be limited to in the moment. I think it was kq who had her kids blanket trained so she just laid out her blanket and the kids knew from like 9 months that they should not leave that blanket.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Advice for robots, that one is easy. Stick them in their room and close the door. Or a playpen, bouncer, crib, whatever contained area there is in your house. If you don't have a contained area, get one.

not room! timeout bench, eventually becoming timeout corner stand.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jgA7F8WFbP0/TnIqCwCAxWI/AAAAAAAAB9Y/6lIduDtvdWg/s1600/timeout+in+the+corner.jpg

this crap, man. this crap.

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scholarette
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We also role play proper responses and have since the kid was three. With my kids being younger, they wouldn't go ten minutes before positive feedback. Bin would get a marble after 30 seconds and then again at like 2 minutes and then after 4. Marbles have changed in value and immediacy since bin was 3 though. At three ten marbles might be a cookie or stickers or something but now at 5, she gets 250 marbles for about $20. It takes about a month but that has been something we built up slowly.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Also, a lot of your parenting techniques shouldn't be limited to in the moment. I think it was kq who had her kids blanket trained so she just laid out her blanket and the kids knew from like 9 months that they should not leave that blanket.

.. hadn't thought of that. behaviorally, it would be easy to implement. whoooa
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advice for robots
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Well, positive reinforcement is one thing. I mean, it definitely works to reward good behavior, and of course we have our own reward systems in place and try to remember to tell them how good they're being, etc. My kids aren't hellions and don't do boneheaded stuff very often. They know better--and sometimes that's the problem. They know better, so now what do we do?

I also appreciate the lesson in giving time outs. [Smile] Believe me, with kids ranging from baby to 11 years old, I am well-versed in all the variations. Usually the threat of a time out works just fine. Usually in a dangerous situation they understand after you pull them away and give them a short lecture in why we don't do that. I have given many such lectures. Most of the time that time out is enough of a lesson in don't do that. Every once in a while they go right back to it.

Most of the time you can take measures to make the situation less dangerous--closing them out of the room, sticking them in the playpen until they've forgotten whatever perfidy they were up to (if they're small enough), locking the front door so they can't get out and run down the street, putting a fancy plexiglas guard on the stove, whatever. But every once in a while they keep doing it. Sometimes they're just resistant to being reasoned with. Our 2-year-old doesn't quite get "if you do this, I'm going to have to do that" or even "if you can do this, you'll get this reward." Obviously you can train them from a very young age, but kids have such a talent for finding dumb things to do that you just haven't prepared for, and when they really, really want to do it you have to hustle to dissuade them. I still don't deploy the spank unless all other avenues of reason and restraint are exhausted and it's either that or actually watch them get burned, shocked, run over, or whatever horrible thing they're dead set on doing. Then it's a couple of firm pats on the diaper to get their attention, and then a hug and another gentle reaffirmation/lecture.

I mean, I'm inclined to believe what the AAP says because it's backed up by research, and if they had some practical suggestions for incorporating their recommendations I'd certainly give them the time of day. Otherwise, everybody and their brother has a way of getting their kids to behave that works like a charm, if you get what I mean.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by advice for robots:
Otherwise, everybody and their brother has a way of getting their kids to behave that works like a charm, if you get what I mean.

I think I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCx-M8dcDhk

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advice for robots
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Ah, yes, the scorpion gambit. Kids hate scorpions.
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scholarette
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I don't get why if you have time to spank kid you can't grab and keep hand from getting burned. It seems to me spanking is a tougher action than grab. I also loved the child leashes. When my daughter couldn't be trusted to be free, she got child leashed. That leash was a very effective tool.
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scholarette
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Also, I don't think a person is bad for spanking. I just find that spanking is not a necessary or sufficient tool to parenting. I live in Texas where spanking seems to be the preferred punishment so I am often told there is no way I can raise decent children without swatting. My sister in law even sent me a parenting book on the proper way to spank. Though I also have different goals with my kids. Blind obedience would kinda disgust me.
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ZachC
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So scholarette, you're saying that you're against spanking children because, other, more humane methods are just as effective... but you will attach a rope to your child and pull them along like a common house pet. Please explain to me the logic in that.
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rivka
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Personally, I think both the occasional spank and toddler leashes have their place.

So you can all hate on my parenting methods.

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advice for robots
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quote:
I don't get why if you have time to spank kid you can't grab and keep hand from getting burned. It seems to me spanking is a tougher action than grab.
Well, that's the thing. I have been grabbing their hand, pulling them away, taking them out of the room, having the serious talk with them, all that stuff repeatedly already, and for some reason they're not getting it. The kid flagrantly violates everything I just told her and starts running for the stove yet again. The spank is to make the lesson sink in a little deeper, for lack of better words. It's the once and for all for something they should not think it's ok to do as a general rule, if nothing else has worked. Getting their fingers burned would be just as effective, but I'm not going to let that happen. I don't want her to think she can just try to do it again as soon as I'm not looking.
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Blind obedience--I'm not a huge fan of spanking, despite what I've just said. On the rare occasions I have spanked one of my kids, I did it to get their attention so they'd really listen and hopefully remember what I tell them, lovingly, right after I spank them. I didn't do it to instill fear in them. Letting them know that there are both real consequences for breaking a rule and rewards for following it is not blind obedience; it's the basis of them being able to make good decisions on their own.
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by advice for robots:
On the rare occasions I have spanked one of my kids, I did it to get their attention so they'd really listen and hopefully remember what I tell them, lovingly, right after I spank them. I didn't do it to instill fear in them. Letting them know that there are both real consequences for breaking a rule and rewards for following it is not blind obedience;...

This.
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scholarette
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For the leash, I use it on my dog to keep my dog safe. I love my children a million miles more so why wouldn't I use it for that. Also, I dont use it to drag them along. I use it so they can't run away and disappear in the store.
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advice for robots
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I've considered a child leash like that when we're in very crowded places and envied the parents who had them. Just what scholarette said: to keep them safe in certain circumstances. It actually gives them more freedom than they'd have if you were holding on to their hand or arm, and it gives you more freedom as well. If ever we find ourselves at Disneyland or some other such place in the next few years, I'd have them for our two littlest.
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