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Lots of people were saying that the authorities won't be after Walt, it'll be someone related to Lydia.
But I think the neighbor's reaction says it all. He's well-known by everyone now, which mean the media and the police know who he is.
I think we're all pulling for Jesse because he seems like the last character truly deserving of peace (who has actually done something wrong). I think people are treating Jesse like a wounded, whimpering puppy, and that's getting in the way of remembering that he too has done a lot of terrible stuff.
I think that says a lot about us as viewers. Actually I think reactions to both Walt and Jesse says a lot about us as humans. A lot of people STILL want Walt to win, when he's clearly a terrible, catastrophic human being who has caused unbelievable suffering. Whatever sympathy I had for him is long, long since gone. I'm a little...maybe not surprised, but curious, at people who still root for him to win.
But in Jesse's case it's different. He killed a man in cold blood, a relatively innocent, nice guy (who was also doing bad stuff, but it's not like Gale was an awful person). He directly contributed to Jane's death by getting her back into drugs after she had stayed sober for awhile. That's to say nothing of being instrumental in getting Walt's meth empire started to begin with. Normally when we read those stats we say, send him to jail forever. Or worse. But instead a few months of emotional turmoil and a need for penance seems to satisfy just about every viewer's need for restitution. But looking at the facts on paper, can feeling really, really bad about doing awful things really make up for the awful things? After less than a year?
I wonder how much of that is just being confronted with someone's humanity means we bend the rules. And how much of it really is just plain bizarre.
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People have been rooting for shitty characters since the 30s. They don't necessarily do it because they think they're good people. I was rooting for Gus during his arc against the cartel.
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That said, I'm beginning to wonder if Walt ever really was the protagonist in Breaking Bad, or if it was always a story told from a villain's perspective. And if Hank was always the anti-hero.
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Here's how I feel about Jesse. Thanks to the semi-omnipresent point of view, we know he's remorseful. We know that in a way we couldn't be convinced of with a real life criminal, because we're with him when he's alone. We also know a lot about what led him to do the things he did, and again due to our point of view, we have a more detailed and objective knowledge of those motivations than we would otherwise.
But still, yeah, he would need to be put away. Partly because he's demonstrated ridiculously poor judgment that endangers others and partly because we can't afford to lose the deterrent effect (however weak) of punishing violent crime. But in a purely imaginary frame of reference where I knew but nobody else knew, so deterrence was not a factor, and I somehow had the level of insight that the show permits us to have into the fictional character, I'd probably have to think pretty hard about it.
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quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: I was just rewatching that scene and I just noticed that Hank spits when he says "I don't give a shit about family"
Yeah, wtf was that about?
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It's great. I wish it hit Cranston's face, and then he would improv off of it.
When Hank tells Walt to bring the kids over, was he saying "I want to know they're safe." or was he saying "I'm going to tell them (Jr)." I kind of read it differently both times I watched it.
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quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: That said, I'm beginning to wonder if Walt ever really was the protagonist in Breaking Bad, or if it was always a story told from a villain's perspective. And if Hank was always the anti-hero.
The Atlantic just had a discussion about that very point, that Walt isn't the protagonist.
Hank isn't an anti-hero, he's a straight up hero. He's defended his family, he's fought the bad guys, he's suffered, recovered, and continued to uphold the law while going out of his way to help Walt and Skyler when they needed it. But if this last half season is told from his perspective, I think that makes things really interesting.
The problem, I think, is that Walt was in fact considered an anti-hero for a long time, and maybe for a long time he was. But he's long since passed from anti-hero to villain. His arc is opposite someone like Jaime Lannister, who went from villain to anti-hero, or Zuko from Avatar.
As to your other point, I guess it depends on what we mean by winning or success. I wanted Gus to win too, and I liked Gus as a character. I like Walt as a character. But I think he belongs in a fiery pit of hell, not swimming through his money vault like Scrooge McDuck, riding off into the sunset with his happy family. That's what a lot of people want, and I'm not sure I get it. There's a relative sort of rooting, like, hey these two bad guys are fighting and I like one more. But people who think Walt is a good guy who deserves to come out with a win are buying into his self-delusion and psychosis.
I find that fascinating.
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Interesting post, Lyrhawn.
Here's how I feel about Jesse. Thanks to the semi-omnipresent point of view, we know he's remorseful. We know that in a way we couldn't be convinced of with a real life criminal, because we're with him when he's alone. We also know a lot about what led him to do the things he did, and again due to our point of view, we have a more detailed and objective knowledge of those motivations than we would otherwise.
But still, yeah, he would need to be put away. Partly because he's demonstrated ridiculously poor judgment that endangers others and partly because we can't afford to lose the deterrent effect (however weak) of punishing violent crime. But in a purely imaginary frame of reference where I knew but nobody else knew, so deterrence was not a factor, and I somehow had the level of insight that the show permits us to have into the fictional character, I'd probably have to think pretty hard about it.
Agreed. Indeed it really raises a lot of interesting questions about crime and punishment.
And the way we can see into his life utterly distorts our view of punishment, the same way it would if you were watching a husband or wife be punished, you'd beg for mercy no matter how awful the crime. And we've made that emotional connection with Jesse.
I think that's the thing with Walt now. People who still root for him have made that emotional connection. They actually share in his psychotic self-delusion to where they buy into his personal ideas of guilt, justice and punishment. So they believe, as he does, that he can just turn over a new leaf and go about his business. But a truly objective observer can call out that bullshit pretty fast, just like Hank did, or Jesse.
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quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: I was just rewatching that scene and I just noticed that Hank spits when he says "I don't give a shit about family"
Yeah, wtf was that about?
It's an interesting statement, because obviously Hank DOES care about their family. He's done too much for them.
I think what he means is two-fold. 1. Walt using the family's happy ignorance as a foil for keeping himself free is bullshit, and means Walt cares more about himself than he does the family at large. He put his family in enormous danger.
2. He feels that outing and stopping Walt is better for the family. Why else would he have ordered Walt to bring the kids over to his house? He might have said "I don't give a shit about family," but his first instinct before anything else was to protect the kids. I think he might have meant "I don't give a shit about protecting the integrity of a family headed by YOU, Walter White." And that's spot on.
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I suppose you're right about Hank. He isn't superman either, though--in that he is kind of a racist asshole to the people he interrogates. But that's his only real flaw. At the very least though, in the beginning I think we're meant to percieve with some very-restrained hostility, as someone whose getting in Walt's way. He's kind of a different type of anti-hero, if that makes any sense.
With a lot of stuff, I kind of waffle back and forth between what I think in while watching and what I think in hindsight. Like the main character in The Town. I was happy for him at the end of the movie. But in hindsight, he was a bad dude and he lived off of money earned in theft and violence. And sometimes I root for people just because it was fun to but I'm aware of it.
also also, I have been informed (by neogaf) that I misheard that hank line. he actually says "damn, like you care about family." But Walt kind of talks over him and I misheard it. I'll admit that I like my version more.
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Protagonist doesn't mean "good guy," it means the character whose goals drive the action. Obviously Walt is the protagonist, and this season Hank is the antagonist.
Hank isn't an anti-hero, either.
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Usually the protagonist is the person who the creator is trying to get you to root for. Even if he isn't the good guy. And Hank is driving the action as much as Walt, at this point.
Either way, a story of a hero from a villain's perspective.
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I found Walt's reaction to Saul's sugestion of a trip to Beleze for Hank to be very interesting. I think Walt really thinks of Hank as family, so even when he was threatening him it was with an eye for his safety. "If you really believe that of me you should be careful."
I just don't see either of them killing the other.
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Talking Bad has one of the most hideous sets I've ever seen.
Also, I've decided that the series ends w Walt shooting himself, like he was going to in the very first episode.
If it ends well, though, I think the internet would implode on itself. Part of me wants them to do it, but they won't
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I don't know, I think Walt's potential for ruthlessness is certainly up to the threshold of killing Hank-if it were expedient, and if he could build himself up (or perhaps down) to it. He's done many, many things which would have been thinkable to him before he did it.
But it's not, because at this point if Hank got a hangnail, Marie would hare off on her own to his friends and spill everything-and then they'd want him for hurting a cop plus everything else.
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Man, if it builds up to that, I'll be off the seat. Not sure where I stand. He's taken risks to keep Hank safe before--but if Hank goes after that money (and he will) then all bets might be off.
Still waiting to see when the Mom from Malcomb in the middle shows up.
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Been busy, getting ready to move to the UK. But I changed the thread title.
Few thoughts.
I agree that Hank closing the garage was one of the most tense moments of the series.
"I'll send you to Belize," is now one of my favorite quotes from the show.
Would Skyler be willing to stand by her man like she did in the last episode if she didn't have a hundred million dollars or so riding on it?
I feel bad for Jesse, but man, I think my annoyance with his stupidity is starting to override those feelings. Next episode should bring him more into the mix of things, which is good.
We saw last season that Lydia was perfectly comfortable ordering gangland type killings, and we saw her actually carry through in this last episode. At this point I think it's likely that Lydia, Todd, and Todd's Nazi friends cause harm to Walt's family. Hank keeps investigating, Lydia finds out that Hank knows, Lydia takes steps to tie up loose ends, things go horribly wrong. One or more members of the family are dead, and Walt kills Hank in a rage because it's Hank's "fault." He then has to go on the run because Marie tells the DEA about him.
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Yes, I think Skyler would. I think she's of two minds about all of this, but ultimately it was never about the money. She has a criminal mastermind to her as well, but at the end of the day, she only ever wanted her family intact. They could expand the car wash business and be able to launder a gazillion dollars, he could have cooked for months. But she wanted her family back.
Now she has her family back, and that's why she wants to beat Hank. Though I think the money helps.
I don't think Jesse is stupid, per se. I think he's given up.
The only way I see Lydia coming back to haunt Hank is one of two ways:
1. While Jesse is in with Hank, Jesse tells Hank that Todd killed the kid, because it's one of the big things weighing on his mind. As a result, Todd's uncle comes after Walt.
2. Todd's uncle knows that Walt is the only threat to their business and wants him offed.
The Lydia-Hank connection is interesting though. But that still makes Jesse the lynchpin.
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Walt's threat makes no sense to me. No one at the DEA would believe it and all Hank would have to do is tell the truth about the situation and explain that Walt tried to use that video to blackmail him. If Hank was really Heisenberg, why would he have made every attempt to continue the Heisenberg investigation even after everyone else at the DEA wanted to drop it? No one is going to buy the story that Hank is Heisenberg. Regarding the money for his treatment, again, just tell the truth. His wife accepted the money to pay for Hank's treatment from her brother-in-law, obviously not knowing it was drug money.
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quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Walt's threat makes no sense to me. No one at the DEA would believe it and all Hank would have to do is tell the truth about the situation and explain that Walt tried to use that video to blackmail him. If Hank was really Heisenberg, why would he have made every attempt to continue the Heisenberg investigation even after everyone else at the DEA wanted to drop it? No one is going to buy the story that Hank is Heisenberg. Regarding the money for his treatment, again, just tell the truth. His wife accepted the money to pay for Hank's treatment from her brother-in-law, obviously not knowing it was drug money.
Nah, they'd totally believe it. First off, Hank has been acting weird for months.
And Walt explained away your biggest problem - he doesn't get credit for going after Fring because Walt framed it as Hank using his persecution of Fring as a personal vendetta and using the DEA to further his meth empire. And it's way more plausible that Hank, who knows exactly how the meth business works, started an empire than Walt.
It's not about getting Walt off the hook, it's about taking Hank down with him, and I think even if it didn't work, it'd absolutely get Hank fired and ruin him.
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Oh it worked...in that it stopped Hank dead in his tracks.
Too bad Jessie made such a large leap of logic and is going all Jackson Pollack with a gas can on the White living room.
I have one question though...where is the infant daughter during all this? She tends to disapear conveniently whenever something goes down.
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I'm not buying it. If I were Hank I would go straight to the DEA, explain to them exactly how I found out about Walt, show them the video, put it in context explaining why Walt made the video, and let them do their investigation. Hank would get put on leave during it obviously, but there's no evidence convicting Hank and the truth would be obvious about who is lying.
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Hank didn't go to the DEA with this BEFORE Walt muddied the waters with the video confession. He said himself that his career would be over. Now they would have to, at minimum, investiagte him hard core, retire hI'm early and utterly destroy his rep. Even possibly arrest and charge him. No. Hank was never going to turn over his investigation of Walt to someone else, nand now Walt has poisoned the well so Hank can not do anything without sacrificing his own career/lifestyle.
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How does Hank make it past the 'took 177 grand from my b-i-l's 'gambling winnings' and never asked questions about it or reported it as income on either end?' Or 'why did you brutally beat meth cook suspect, and why have you been on him ever since?' Or 'why didn't you tell anyone about any of this, ever? Are you dishonest or grossly incompetent?' Or 'how was it you came to know so much about Fring?' Or 'why did assassins come after you, personally, something almost unheard of for cops but not unusual for drug kingpins?'
I don't see how any of these and many other grave questions could so easily be explained, Gaal.
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The way that the confession scene was conceptualized, foreshadowed, and shot represents exactly why I love this show so much.
I don't know if Saul had his guys put a tracker on one of the barrels, or if the lottery ticket gets lost somehow, but there's no way that Walt or his family end up keeping that fortune.
I'm also gettig a bad feeling about Saul. Like, he's going to do something unexpectedly ruthless and come out at or neae the top. It would be just like this show to twist the knife and remind us vicscerally that even the comic relief is a monster.
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I can't see Saul doing that. He knows his role, and I think he even likes it.
I agree with Rakeesh 100%. At the end of the day there's no evidence to support the fact that Walt has done anything at all over than Hank's brain and the book with Gale's handwriting in it. It's circumstantial at best and the trail has long since been burned. Hank was willing to risk his career before, but he wasn't willing to risk that the DEA would turn on him. And let's face it, it IS a plausible story from an outside perspective.
Stone Wolf -
Yeah, that's par for the course with TV. Everyone wants a baby but no one wants to deal with it afterward so it's always napping or being babysat. Either Walt Jr. is at home with the baby, or she's off somewhere else being watched for the day. But it's not like she's at home by herself.
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I agree that Hank does have a lot to lose if Walt told the DEA his fake story, but I also believe the truth would come out eventually. However, Hank has already been through so much and Walt's story may or may not convince the DEA, but it does convince Hank to keep it a secret given how much he is emotionally tied up in this. And that's all Walt needs right now: to keep Hank from telling the DEA.
I think Walt knows his secret is no longer going to remain that way forever. I think he is just buying time to play more games and get things the way he wants them, whatever that may be.
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If Saul was planning on making his own move, he would have done so when his men had the money. All he would have to do at that point was send Walt to Belize (I love that line) and no one would ever know he has all that money, except his men whom I'm sure would take a healthy cut and everyone go their seperate ways.
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I think Saul is too frightened of Walt to try something like that unless it was basically a guarantee he would be safe (as in, Walt dead) from reprisals. From where we sit it's plain to see how much unlikely luck has played a role in Walt's 'success', but from the perspective of other people-even Hank now, in a different way-Walt wins and other people, lots of them, end up dead or in Belize, including two (Fring and Mike) who should never have had any trouble with Walt at all.
Of course with the berserk Jesse factor at play, all bets are off.
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I'm already grieving for when the show is over. However, things so far this season are great. I thought the latest turn of events was handled well.
I now think it's Marie who vandalizes the house.
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-If- it's decided by a fire fight, then Jessie, Gommie and Hank are all worm food. The DEA are so out gunned it's a joke.
Me thinks Gillian will have an ace up his sleeve. ..just can't imagine what it could be.
I have every faith the show won't turn stupid in the last handful of eppisodes and have Gomez and Hank WIN the gunfight.
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They're fighting professional killers. There's no realistic way they're missing firing 100s of rounds from that range.
And I agree with you, if somehow they have a guy with a friggin pistol and a guy with a shotgun take out 6 or 7 armored men with machine guns, I'll be pretty disappointed. Those odds are just too overwhelming.
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I think Hank and Gomie die and Jesse is captured with Walt. As Hank dies he tells Walt off and Walt finally breaks down and realizes the price was too high. But he's lost all his power now. Todd's uncle has all the power and a captive meth cooker. So Walt gives him Jesse to cook, who has to cooperate of else Todd's uncle will hurt Brock and Andrea. The flash forward is Walt on deaths door getting heavy weapons together to rescue Jesse from Todd's uncle some six months later. He goes down in a blaze of glory just like scarface, rescuing Jesse and securing a future for his family.
It's also possible that Marie ends up with his kids somehow, possibly to protect them when Walt has to go on the run. I think it would be the fairest ending for her.
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quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: They're fighting professional killers. There's no realistic way they're missing firing 100s of rounds from that range.
And I agree with you, if somehow they have a guy with a friggin pistol and a guy with a shotgun take out 6 or 7 armored men with machine guns, I'll be pretty disappointed. Those odds are just too overwhelming.
Given Hanks takedown of Tuko, I believe he could take out a couple of them with a handgun. But there's no way he and Gomie weren't dropped five seconds into that battle. Too many heavy weapons that were too accurate from too short a distance. And it took them too long to get to cover. I'm a little confused as to why they were liberally spraying the SUV Walt was in, but I guess I chalk it up to carelessness?
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*nods* It would be slightly more believable if it was a pistol-only fight. But I don't think many people realize just how ridiculously accurate assault rifles are at close range. I'm an average shot and can place headshots on a target at 500 meters... but for part of our rifle qual, we have to do rapid target engagement. We have bladed targets at 25M (the distance of the shootout in this episode) that present themselves for 4 seconds, in which time you have to raise your weapon, take it off safe, aim, and fire 2-4 rounds (depending on the drill). It's almost unheard of for someone to miss the target - rather it's graded entirely on weather you can hit their chest or the "T-box." (the area right above and between the eyes) But you can literally hip fire and still hit the target. Someone who had never fired a rifle in their life could come along, point the rifle at the target, and hit it. There's simply no realistic way Hank and Gomez didn't get wasted.
I honestly don't see why they didn't just end the episode with Hank and Gomez getting killed and Jessie and Walt getting taken prisoner. It would have been a much better ending.
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Really, I think the portion of the fight they showed was already way too long with nobody getting hit.
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quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: *nods* It would be slightly more believable if it was a pistol-only fight. But I don't think many people realize just how ridiculously accurate assault rifles are at close range. I'm an average shot and can place headshots on a target at 500 meters... but for part of our rifle qual, we have to do rapid target engagement. We have bladed targets at 25M (the distance of the shootout in this episode) that present themselves for 4 seconds, in which time you have to raise your weapon, take it off safe, aim, and fire 2-4 rounds (depending on the drill). It's almost unheard of for someone to miss the target - rather it's graded entirely on weather you can hit their chest or the "T-box." (the area right above and between the eyes) But you can literally hip fire and still hit the target. Someone who had never fired a rifle in their life could come along, point the rifle at the target, and hit it. There's simply no realistic way Hank and Gomez didn't get wasted.
I honestly don't see why they didn't just end the episode with Hank and Gomez getting killed and Jessie and Walt getting taken prisoner. It would have been a much better ending.
Yeah I totally agree. But I guess the alternative was to either have them all use handguns or have the fight take place at a much greater distance. Both were probably rejected because they weren't cinematic enough. It's a situation where they were damned either way, because making it realistic would likely have made it much less exciting for most people.
And despite how gun crazed Americans are supposed to be. Most people have little concept of how they actually work.
I just refer to the white pride guys as storm troopers now. Would seem to be highly trained, homogenous, racial supremacists who despite their training can't hit the broad side of a barn.
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I agree with you guys about how Hank and Gomez should have been swiss cheese. With no prior training or experience with an assault rifle, I am still 99% sure I could have hit Hank at that range if I had him lined up in my sites like those guys did.
It kind of ruined the episode for me, to be honest.
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The stormtrooper aiming was a little off, true, but the show has often sacrificed realism for drama/coolness. Walt would have exploded himself driving the mercury fulminate to Tucos, and the little piece he threw wouldn't have made such a big explosion, and if it DID he would have had more then a bloody nose from it. It's still one of the coolest scenes in the series.
Gomez, I believe, is one hundred percent dead. Hank, I'd put the odds at seventy five percent. Jesse, sadly, I'd say is only twenty five percent likely to die from the shootout. I've wanted him to die since the season opener (I've soured on Jesse these last couple of seasons) but he's a fan and creator favorite and he's probably the most likely outside of the kids and Marie to be alive at the end of the show.
I like the idea of Walt handing him over to the Aryans to cook meth. It neatly solves all of his problems; he takes care of the murderous Jesse problem, and he's paid off the Aryans for their "service" in rescuing him. Given how Jack looked him straight in the eye when Walt was screaming don't shoot, and then did it anyway, I'd say Walt would be happy just to get them out of his life, period.
I'll also say it will be revealed that Gomez or Hank have managed to kill Todd in the shootout, thereby giving Walt and the Aryans no choice but to use Jesse as their captive meth cook.
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Yeah that would be a good way to seal the deal, though that sort of makes the work they did with Todd and Lydia a little wasted.
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quote:Walt would have exploded himself driving the mercury fulminate to Tucos, and the little piece he threw wouldn't have made such a big explosion, and if it DID he would have had more then a bloody nose from it. It's still one of the coolest scenes in the series.
I'll take your word for it, but of course I know nothing about mercury fulminate. But if a viewer has even a passing familiarity with ballistic weapons of any sort, that scene has got to be tough on their suspension of disbelief.
I myself played paintball for a bit, and even as slow as those projectiles are, and how inaccurate they are compared to actual firearms... That's a hit 9/10 times I take the shot. If my whole paintball team has aim at that range and you aren't moving, you're going to be covered in paint after the initial volley.
If I were writing that scene, I'd just have had Gomez and Hank take cover when they saw the vehicles approaching. Problem solved. Perhaps I'll just edit my memory of the scene to include that .
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Yeah, the show has already made me roll my eyes a lot of times, the most egregious of which was the Gus death scene, but including all kind of crazy coincidences and the amount of speeding with impunity. The show hasn't been all that realistic, ever, it's just very clever and well acted.
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Man, that last episode was sick (just watched it), but the end was a little too convenient. I think Jesse said it best, when speaking of Walt. He said he was the devil, that he was smarter and luckier than any of them. He's right. Walt has always, consistently come out on top and for no good reason. I can't say I mind it much, because it makes for some amazing TV. I mean I think we can all agree none of us has any idea where his show will end up going, and that's not something you can say very often.
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I think next week Walt is alone in a room talking to himself for much of the episode. We will see a lot of guest actors from previous seasons who will manifest his inner demons and thoughts.
I think Heisenberg is dead. Walt is all that's left, and Walt was a good guy who wants to make amends. His phone call to Skyler was the first move.
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The show hasn't been all that realistic, ever, it's just very clever and well acted.
