quote:In the real world of colors and sexualities and consequences, favoring one thing more than another tends to mean that second thing suffers because of it.
How would this work?
Like this: Bob: "I enjoy my hetero lifestyle."
Bob2: "Me,too! Hetero lifestyles are great! " Bob3: "Yeah. Much better than those gay lifestyles that don't mystically connect with our ansesters." Bob4: "Yeah. They think they are as good as we are!" Bob5: "We should protect hereto lifestyles!" Bob27: "What does Bob think?" Bob43: "Bob says he is pro strait like us." Senator Bob: All you voter Bobs are pro strayt, so elect me and I will make some pro strate laws!" Bobs78-81: We are so pro strate, we are going to go beat the crap out of some gays. Bob is pro straat too so he won't care. Bobs142-472: Pro straight? Whatever. Not really paying attention. Gay Rob: "Ouch, right in my civil liberties! "
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posted
Or as Desmond Tutu put it, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."
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Bob2: "Me,too! Hetero lifestyles are great! " Bob3: "Yeah. Much better than those gay lifestyles that don't mystically connect with our ansesters." Bob1: "WTF? 3" Bob2: "Yea, 'Robert' 10% of the population is gay & has always been. Bob1: "And it's WAY more common among animals." Bob3: "Yea, but they don't make babies like we do!" Bob1: "Uhem! Like your fourth?" Bob3 blushes.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Or as Desmond Tutu put it, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."
Now THIS is an argument that hits home with me. I myself am decidedly not neutral as a self styled humanitarian.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Bob: "I enjoy my hetero lifestyle."
Bob2: "Me,too! Hetero lifestyles are great! " Bob3: "Yeah. Much better than those gay lifestyles that don't mystically connect with our ansesters." Bob1: "WTF? 3" Bob2: "Yea, 'Robert' 10% of the population is gay & has always been. Bob1: "And it's WAY more common among animals." Bob3: "Yea, but they don't make babies like we do!" Bob1: "Uhem! Like your fourth?" Bob3 blushes.
Yet again, this is what happens in your imagination. Not in real life. Just look at the news from North Carolina and Mississippi. Even after all the progress made by those who are not pro straight.
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In all of this discussion you fail to see that you have demonstrated a knee jerk reaction that is borderline "anti-straight ".
Take the Duggers for example...they might feel themselves "pro hetero lifestyle" & really think they are only reresenting their own beliefs in a positive light...and I feel comfortable saying that if they did...you would have a problem w it...a big one!
Do people say "family values" & mean "kill all gays" it can & does happen.
Those people are lyers & a real problem.
But here's the bottom line...your seeming view that most mean it badly I do not agree w.
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Have you ever been wrong, Stonewolf? About anything? Or has it always been a case of other people just not understanding what it was you were really saying?
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The same Duggers who spoke nonstop about the evils of homosexuality while being/covering up for kiddie diddlers.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Ask around.
Yeah, I'm not asking others. I'm asking you. You appear to have a rather extraordinary resistance to just saying, "Huh, I was wrong about that. My bad."
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quote:Originally posted by Heisenberg: The same Duggers who spoke nonstop about the evils of homosexuality while being/covering up for kiddie diddlers.
They are not my favorite show...but my wife likes it...anyway...their son touched their daughter's breast over the cloths while she was asleep...turned himself into his parents and they took him to the police...so yea...your summery is fairly inaccurate.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: In all of this discussion you fail to see that you have demonstrated a knee jerk reaction that is borderline "anti-straight ".
Take the Duggers for example...they might feel themselves "pro hetero lifestyle" & really think they are only reresenting their own beliefs in a positive light...and I feel comfortable saying that if they did...you would have a problem w it...a big one!
Do people say "family values" & mean "kill all gays" it can & does happen.
Those people are lyers & a real problem.
But here's the bottom line...your seeming view that most mean it badly I do not agree w.
Look around you. If significant numbers didn't mean it badly, why did it take so long and a Supreme Court ruling to allow SSM in most states? Why are we seeing brand new laws making it legal to discriminate?
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quote:Originally posted by Heisenberg: The same Duggers who spoke nonstop about the evils of homosexuality while being/covering up for kiddie diddlers.
They are not my favorite show...but my wife likes it...anyway...their son touched their daughter's breast over the cloths while she was asleep...turned himself into his parents and they took him to the police...so yea...your summery is fairly inaccurate.
Do some research. That is not quite what happened.
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quote: Look around you. If significant numbers didn't mean it badly, why did it take so long and a Supreme Court ruling to allow SSM in most states? Why are we seeing brand new laws making it legal to discriminate?
Or maybe those people you are counting as enimies are actually on the same side...which is why SSM is federally protected at all.
Your view of people seems angry & dark.
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Dude. Are you nuts? It wasn't people realizing they were on the same side that made SSM possible. It was a lot of hard work over decades in blood, sweat, and tears and often in direct opposition to cheerful indifference like yours. I'm not talking about how you would describe your own outlook, but rather the attitude of 'hey, here's a problem with your ideas on this, I'll explain' to which you reply 'I'm a humanitarian!' with basically that amount of detail and explanation.
Oh, and it also became possible frankly because a lot of other people who 'want to protect the family' died off and were replaced by newer humans who thought 'hey in terms of morality and moral value, maybe there's no difference'.
Jesus, this is African Americans and Irish all over again. On the same side? Really? Her perspective on this issue seems 'dark and angry' to you because the history of our dealings with homosexuals in this country has often-and recently!-been dark and angry. Yours is bright and happy because you know very little about it and think 'I'm a humanitarian!' is some sort of policy statement.
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quote:Originally posted by Heisenberg: The same Duggers who spoke nonstop about the evils of homosexuality while being/covering up for kiddie diddlers.
They are not my favorite show...but my wife likes it...anyway...their son touched their daughter's breast over the cloths while she was asleep...turned himself into his parents and they took him to the police...so yea...your summery is fairly inaccurate.
Multiple girls, four of his sisters and a babysitter, over and under their clothes, breasts and genitals, sometimes when they slept, sometimes even they were awake. And that is just what he admitted. His parents did not take him to the police. After almost a year, when he kept doing it, they took him to a family friend and supporter who also happened to be a police officer. That police officer gave him "a stern taking to". That officer is now in jail for child pornography.
That many many people have worked very very hard is not a suprise to me...but with out a prevailing attatude of acceptance from those like me that hard work would have been a butt load harder.
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quote:Originally posted by Heisenberg: The same Duggers who spoke nonstop about the evils of homosexuality while being/covering up for kiddie diddlers.
They are not my favorite show...but my wife likes it...anyway...their son touched their daughter's breast over the cloths while she was asleep...turned himself into his parents and they took him to the police...so yea...your summery is fairly inaccurate.
Multiple girls, four of his sisters and a babysitter, over and under their clothes, breasts and genitals, sometimes when they slept, sometimes even they were awake. And that is just what he admitted. His parents did not take him to the police. After almost a year, when he kept doing it, they took him to a family friend and supporter who also happened to be a police officer. That police officer gave him "a stern taking to". That officer is now in jail for child pornography.
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: In all of this discussion you fail to see that you have demonstrated a knee jerk reaction that is borderline "anti-straight ".
Take the Duggers for example...they might feel themselves "pro hetero lifestyle" & really think they are only reresenting their own beliefs in a positive light...and I feel comfortable saying that if they did...you would have a problem w it...a big one!
Do people say "family values" & mean "kill all gays" it can & does happen.
Those people are lyers & a real problem.
But here's the bottom line...your seeming view that most mean it badly I do not agree w.
The Duggars do not only represent their beliefs in a positive light. They strongly work to squelch other viewpoints.
The TLC show didn't air those parts, kept their political activism out of the show, and coddled their views (even reassigning gay crewmembers). My friend lived in Fayetteville for a while. Mrs. Duggar robocalled quite a bit. Their activism also extended to (successfully) campaigned to prevent stores from selling alcohol, in ways that don't really stop vice, but serve to annoy shoppers, give Wally World a monopoly and divert tax dollars to other municipalities (it's worth noting for this argument that I am a teetotaler).
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quote:Originally posted by Heisenberg: The same Duggers who spoke nonstop about the evils of homosexuality while being/covering up for kiddie diddlers.
They are not my favorite show...but my wife likes it...anyway...their son touched their daughter's breast over the cloths while she was asleep...turned himself into his parents and they took him to the police...so yea...your summery is fairly inaccurate.
Multiple girls, four of his sisters and a babysitter, over and under their clothes, breasts and genitals, sometimes when they slept, sometimes even they were awake. And that is just what he admitted. His parents did not take him to the police. After almost a year, when he kept doing it, they took him to a family friend and supporter who also happened to be a police officer. That police officer gave him "a stern taking to". That officer is now in jail for child pornography.
Yes. My bad. You are correct. Which also makes Heisenberg's account very inaccurate as well.
Hahaha. What? They discover their son is a diddler, wait a full year while he KEEPS ON DOING IT, and when the family friend cop turns a blind eye they figure everything is just fine and dandy now. How the hell is that NOT them covering up?
I'll tell you right now, if I report a child molester to a police officed and he proceeds to do jack shit about it, I don't consider the matter closed. I go find another frigging police officer.
No. I was not inaccurate.
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Thank you for the new info on the Duggers all...I didn't do any research bc I don't care about them...it was yet another bad example.
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SW, I think you have the potential to learn, but you need to spend more time learning about the real world and less time theorizing about how the world should be.
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That many many people have worked very very hard is not a suprise to me...but with out a prevailing attatude of acceptance from those like me that hard work would have been a butt load harder.
Yes, it's not at all surprising that someone profoundly ignorant on a part of history thinks that they should get some credit for not actively standing in the way of people actually trying to redress injustices with more than an effortless 'attitude of acceptance'.
This is a point that's been made over and over again. A casual, lazy, do-nothing 'attitude of acceptance' when the status quo is massively geared unjustly against a particular group helps the status quo, not the victims.
Am I mistaken, or have you said in the past that you don't or didn't even vote? If I am mistaken, then that's my bad. If I am not, though, it makes your lazy 'acceptance' even less worthwhile.
Can we skip the part, just this once, where you pretend and make a bunch of pronouncements as though you actually had any insight based on knowledge of history about homosexuals in America, and just admit it's a part of American history you don't know much about? It'll be ok, I swear to god, no sarcasm, no beef, no razzing.
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And I don't vote in presidential matters as my state will carry the liberal reguardless. Local stuff...primaries...yes.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: And I don't vote in presidential matters as my state will carry the liberal reguardless. Local stuff...primaries...yes.
No you don't. We all had a big discussion about it last year, remember?
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: For one, I'm in California, so my vote for Pres doesn't either way. Either my vote literally doesn't count if I vote Republican, or if for Democrat, I can just stay home.
Would I even be able to vote in primaries as a Lib.? I thought only people registered to Dem or Rep can vote in their respective primaries?
Honestly the few times I tried to vote I got confused, bored & disinterested very quickly.
You didn't even know how to vote in the primaries and repeatedly talked about how you thought voting was pointless. There hasn't been a primary in California since that discussion, so it's kind of difficult to believe that you do in fact vote in "local stuff... primaries." What "local stuff" do you vote in?
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zlogdanbr
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia:
quote:Originally posted by zlogdanbr: Syn, I have just got
DAWN (LILITH’S BROOD – BOOK ONE) from Kobo. ( 5 bucks for it ) Thanks for the tip.
Ooo I hope you like it. I love that series. Though the third one is my favourite.
It is a pretty pretty good book. I know I like a book when I just grab the book and when I see I am past 30 pages.
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zlogdanbr
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote: Look around you. If significant numbers didn't mean it badly, why did it take so long and a Supreme Court ruling to allow SSM in most states? Why are we seeing brand new laws making it legal to discriminate?
Or maybe those people you are counting as enimies are actually on the same side...which is why SSM is federally protected at all.
Your view of people seems angry & dark.
This is something I partially agree. Sometimes it is difficult to sit and hear a discordant opinion when it is so angrily put. For example, if someone says "I like my straight life" this could lead to replies much more bad tempered and complete misconception of the original purpose the statement actually tried to convey thus leading to an endless angered debate when it should not go that way.
On the other hand if you disapprove that the very statement "I like my straight life" it might sound as if you were condemning people for that behavior when your initial aim was to bring equality to the table.
Brazilian congressman and gay activist Jean Wyllys always answers with "you are homophobic" to anyone that says "I disagree", which make his points much harder to be understood.
So all this debate just feeds the minds that want to believe that gay activists want to end up with heterossexual couples instead of truly understanding the objectives of the activism.
I really understand the idea of being pro human because I am a product of blood from many different heritages. When you have African, Italian , Portuguese , native Indian and even Slavic ancestry, it is hard to not be pro human.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: And I don't vote in presidential matters as my state will carry the liberal reguardless. Local stuff...primaries...yes.
No you don't. We all had a big discussion about it last year, remember?
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: For one, I'm in California, so my vote for Pres doesn't either way. Either my vote literally doesn't count if I vote Republican, or if for Democrat, I can just stay home.
Would I even be able to vote in primaries as a Lib.? I thought only people registered to Dem or Rep can vote in their respective primaries?
Honestly the few times I tried to vote I got confused, bored & disinterested very quickly.
You didn't even know how to vote in the primaries and repeatedly talked about how you thought voting was pointless. There hasn't been a primary in California since that discussion, so it's kind of difficult to believe that you do in fact vote in "local stuff... primaries." What "local stuff" do you vote in?
Your style is combative.
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Honest question: why is *his* style combative, and what does it say about *your* goddamned 'style' that, yet again, you reply to serious points that highlight flaws in your position with one liners not even addressing those points?
Let's review this discussion. Straight couples experience a mystic bond that you don't see how others could experience...and after multiple direct challenges to that idea in which you didn't address it, suddenly you hadn't meant it like that at all and why are people combative or dark and angry?
African Americans and Irish faced very similar circumstances in the 1800s. Then similar. Then they lived near each other and were poor. *Then* it's something you just don't know much about.
The Duggars weren't so bad, except wait they were and it turned out you didn't actually know anything at all about them but that didn't stop you from criticizing the views of others who did.
Yeah gays have had it rough you guess, like the Irish or the African Americans!, but boy howdy their job would've been tougher if it weren't for a 'prevailing attitude of tolerance' from people like you. Except no, people like yourself when they weren't mired in apathy and laziness on social issues, had to be dragged figuratively kicking and screaming by the exact sorts of activists whose work they scoffed at and wondered why they had so much hate for straight people the whole time.
You vote in 'local stuff' except wait we talked about this before and as it turns out you couldn't have voted in 'local stuff' as you claim you have since that last conversation. And I suppose in a page or two you won't have meant *that*, either.
And *Dogbreath* is being 'combative'? *I* have been combative. He has stuck to your points, as shifting and spineless as they have been more than once in this discussion. This? You labeling him 'combative'? That's just your passive-aggressive way of trying to control the conversation by making him appear mean without actually saying anything substantive. And the worst part is he's not even being combative!
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zlog, the difficulty here is that you consistently seem to be permitting gay rights activism to be symbolized by the most radical activists. Which if you want to do that, that's fine. But here in the United States at least and I suspect also in Brazil, gay rights far left radicals are much fewer in number and power, and generally less in awfulness, than their far right counterparts.
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posted
No one objects to someone enjoying their own life. We rejoice in that. Adding "straight" is suspect because, why? Why do you feel it necessary to point out that it is your straight life? And people don't just say my straight life. They just say straight life and they think everyone should have a life like theirs.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: No one objects to someone enjoying their own life. We rejoice in that. Adding "straight" is suspect because, why? Why do you feel it necessary to point out that it is your straight life? And people don't just say my straight life. They just say straight life and they think everyone should have a life like theirs.
I don't when describing myself include "straight".
I just hear something different then you do when zlog & others say they are pro family values.
We have established that we disagree on that particular.
I like pro human...i'm sticking to it despite the numerous seeming disapproval.
I've found in this life one can be happy or right.
You guys may be right. Debatable. I'm more interested in working on my happiness.
I'm struggling with near debilitating pain & ibsd while being the sole care giver of two small children & a bedridden wife. Recently (last week) a dear family friend and my uncle passes & i found out my father cheated on my mother & brought back disesase to thier marage bed & then told me consistently he never cheated on her (also never hit her...also a lie). My mother in law suffers ptsd & bi polar & ossilates from angrily demanding to discuss previous discussed arguments & openly abusive tirades. I'm also battling depression & some kinda agrophobia that both my maternal uncle (rip) & grandmother had.
Now why mention all this? Not interested in pity. I'm busy. I answer things as best I can. At times I do not have time for an elaborate answer. However your impatience has been quite irksome...but I haven't even mentioned it.
Also, you guys are agressive . Even admittedly so.
Those things you are up in arms about...were vehicles...in an attempt at discussion...
But you guys seem like such militant PC cops that we get tangled in all this minutia...and I'm honestly tired of it.
I come here for a chat every now and again, not really up for witchhunts.
As to my voting...since our previous conversation I have registered to vote and will be participating (not in presidential ).
As to personally Rakeesh...I've tried & tried to be kind & respectful to you and you are so insistant that I'm fundimentally dishonest.
Get over it already. Or not & I'll just mostly ignore you like I do DB.
No big deal either way.
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posted
Both you and zlogdanbr hear something different from the "pro family values" because you are profoundly ignorant of the situation. You both have reasons for that: zlogdanbr is from another culture and you...have a lot going on. We are "militant" because we know more about the situation and the damage "pro family values" do to people, often people we care about. I appreciate that you come for a chat but ehen you know that others know more than you do, the best approach would be to learn rather than stubbornly clinging to the way you imagine things should be.
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If your goal is education...scorn doesn't prick up ears. It shuts down hopelessly myopic bigots whose only likely contrabution to the human condition is dying.
Zlog & myself may well be ignorant.
But we came here willing to talk so if you want anyone left around to listen, I'd dial it down a bit if I were you.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: No one objects to someone enjoying their own life. We rejoice in that. Adding "straight" is suspect because, why? Why do you feel it necessary to point out that it is your straight life? And people don't just say my straight life. They just say straight life and they think everyone should have a life like theirs.
I don't when describing myself include "straight".
I just hear something different then you do when zlog & others say they are pro family values.
We have established that we disagree on that particular.
I like pro human...i'm sticking to it despite the numerous seeming disapproval.
I've found in this life one can be happy or right.
You guys may be right. Debatable. I'm more interested in working on my happiness.
I'm struggling with near debilitating pain & ibsd while being the sole care giver of two small children & a bedridden wife. Recently (last week) a dear family friend and my uncle passes & i found out my father cheated on my mother & brought back disesase to thier marage bed & then told me consistently he never cheated on her (also never hit her...also a lie). My mother in law suffers ptsd & bi polar & ossilates from angrily demanding to discuss previous discussed arguments & openly abusive tirades. I'm also battling depression & some kinda agrophobia that both my maternal uncle (rip) & grandmother had.
Now why mention all this? Not interested in pity. I'm busy. I answer things as best I can. At times I do not have time for an elaborate answer. However your impatience has been quite irksome...but I haven't even mentioned it.
Also, you guys are agressive . Even admittedly so.
Those things you are up in arms about...were vehicles...in an attempt at discussion...
But you guys seem like such militant PC cops that we get tangled in all this minutia...and I'm honestly tired of it.
I come here for a chat every now and again, not really up for witchhunts.
As to my voting...since our previous conversation I have registered to vote and will be participating (not in presidential ).
As to personally Rakeesh...I've tried & tried to be kind & respectful to you and you are so insistant that I'm fundimentally dishonest.
Get over it already. Or not & I'll just mostly ignore you like I do DB.
No big deal either way.
I'm sorry things are going bad for you, sincerely. I hope they improve, and I hope you've tried antidepressants. With all of that going on, you should be eligible for aid from the state, and I hope you are receiving it.
The fact that you're holding onto the short end of the stick at the moment in no way excuses the way you converse with and treat others on this board.
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I never asked for an apology. All I did was label your passive aggressive jab for what it was.
But anyway, what I was talking about is how you act. You are not always, nor even most of the time, the victim. You spew crap, get corrected, refuse to admit you're wrong and get defensive, and then claim you are under attack by those correcting your arguments.
The people who you would term friends tend to be the type that won't call obvious bullshit, bullshit.
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posted
And how much weight would you assign to your advice if our positions were reveresed? You seem openly hostile. As to your comment...you commented about me...not my behavior. You labeled a depressed man an "immature, passive agressive manchild" if memory serves.
There is a difference between saying "Please stop this negative behavior." As I have done with you & name calling, as you have done with me.
I can accept that at times I'm innapropriate or hurtful, or speak foolishly...I have no delusions of perfection.
However please hear me clearly, your behaviors towords me are innapropriate & you have repeatedly ignored me when I have asked you to stop.
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