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Author Topic: old man blogs at cloud
zlogdanbr
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
So what do you mean by traditional families. Why "traditional"? What would a non-traditional family be?

It is a all a matter of semantics km, let me rephrase that ( my first language is not English and perhaps that is the case of confusion ).

I think a family based on father and mother was pivotal to the development of our society but I do not think on same sex marriage as bad or evil.

--
Rakeesh: as for OSC opinions on gay marriage I still do not think about him conveying hatred, however, as you said, the topic seems more likely to be a naive opinion of this old 43 guy/fan. I am still reading and checking all OSC said about it though.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by zlogdanbr:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
So what do you mean by traditional families. Why "traditional"? What would a non-traditional family be?

It is a all a matter of semantics km, let me rephrase that ( my first language is not English and perhaps that is the case of confusion ).

I think a family based on father and mother was pivotal to the development of our society but I do not think on same sex marriage as bad or evil.


Just inferior?
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Stone_Wolf_
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Just none of my business.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Is the phrase "White is beautiful." racist?

Is the phrase "Black is beautiful. racist?

I can see how both or neither are fair answers...but not non matching answers.

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kmbboots
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Then you are not seeing the picture in context. Saying white is beautiful is only necessary if one is trying to counter people saying black is beautiful. Saying black is beautiful is countering generations - centuries of culture that said that black was ugly.

SW, unless somebody just let you out of the cave where you have spent your life, you really don't have an excuse for thinking that we exist without history and context.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Sure...context is nessecary. And no...I would not wear a "White is Beautiful." shirt...because it IS insensitive.

But that doesn't mean that "Black is Beautiful." isn't rasist...it's just justified & not reasonably insulting.

People seem to use "rasist" when the real discussion should be; is it "commonly found to be offensive" ?

Because a lot of Irish think the tee shirt "Kiss me, I'm Irish...or drunk...or whatever." is funny & ok...is it rasist? Absolutely. Is it "commonly found to be offensive"? Debatable. Seems not to piss off too many folk.

[ April 06, 2016, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]

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kmbboots
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Can you see the difference between "Kiss Me I'm Irish" and "Kiss Me I'm Not Black"? Because that is what we mean by white in this context. We don't mean Swedish or German or Polish. If we did, we would say Swedish or German or Polish. What we mean in this country when we say white is not black, not Latino, not Asian. When we celebrate whiteness as opposed to a specific ethnic heritage we are celebrating that we are not coloured. And that is raCist.
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Rakeesh
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It actually does mean 'black is beautiful' isn't racist, when you consider that the actual meaning there is 'black is as beautiful as white'. But it's meant to be provocative, which isn't the same thing. It's a verbal statement in equal opposition to the cultural status quo that is so ingrained that stating something which most would agree to if asked becomes startling. That's not racist.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Perhaps the dictionary might agree w you...arguable...but please remember I think the idea of "races" is unhelpful & causes unnecessary division among us human type folk.

I pray for an ineffectual (but long term) occupation of our globe by aliens who don't look anything like us. Unite all the Humans REAL fast.

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kmbboots
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Yes. I realize you try to live in a magical world where there is no history and everything starts at 0 all the time. And your white, male, straight privilege allows you to pretend that generations of discrimination never happened and have no consequences. But that is not reality so you end up speaking foolishness when you argue that the world is actually the way you imagine it should be.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Possibly...however deciding how to move forward isn't the same as ignoring the past.
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kmbboots
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You don't get to decide how or when people "move forward". Disregarding centuries of history just makes you look foolish.

When the caricature Stephen Colbert used to play would say "I don't see color," it was lampooning people who act just like you do. Pretending racism doesn't exist doesn't help to make it go away. It just pretends that we have already moved forward and don't have to move any further.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I pretend -race- doesn't matter...to me. My eyes still work. It's not about denying the real world...but instead achieving a higher ideal through acceptance that we are all human.

Should systemic racism be addressed? Yes of course. One way to do that is to promote human race harmony.

The best place to start the world changing is in one's own thought processes.

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kmbboots
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*sigh* yeah. You are just wrong. I don't know how to explain it any more clearly. Pretending that there is no discrimination against gay people doesn't make it stop. You can pretend because you are insulated but pretending dismisses their experience and perpetuates the wrong.
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JanitorBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Can you see the difference between "Kiss Me I'm Irish" and "Kiss Me I'm Not Black"? Because that is what we mean by white in this context. We don't mean Swedish or German or Polish. If we did, we would say Swedish or German or Polish. What we mean in this country when we say white is not black, not Latino, not Asian. When we celebrate whiteness as opposed to a specific ethnic heritage we are celebrating that we are not coloured. And that is raCist.

Wait a second. You are insisting that celebrating Whiteness *must* also include the very anti-statements that Stone_Wolf has just said he does not mean.

Your comparison "Kiss me, I'm Irish" and "Kiss me, I'm not black" are not equivalent. "Kiss me, I'm white." would be the equivalent.

Black culture has been historically derided and so the correct thing to do was introduce a subversive pro-black culture and mentality. The fact white culture has been prideful and discouraging of other races does not mean it is forever forbidden to appreciate itself or say nice things.

Unless your end goal is every single race amalgamates and we're all just people.

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kmbboots
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What is white culture?
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by JanitorBlade:
Wait a second. You are insisting that celebrating Whiteness *must* also include the very anti-statements that Stone_Wolf has just said he does not mean.


Yes. I am saying that, other than in the fantasy that SW and some others pretend, celebrating whiteness is anti-not white. And pro-straight is anti-gay.
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Dogbreath
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BlackBlade: I actually specifically addressed that point in my reply to you two pages back. It would make me very happy if you didn't ignore it outright.

Since I don't want to rehash that entire post, and since it seems like you're stuck at the same point again, let me just ask: what does celebrating "White Culture", or "Straight Culture" actually mean? Can you really define it in a way that doesn't just describe "culture"? Because that's where Stone Wolf has consistently tripped up, and I think you might have some issues as well.

The thing is "White Culture" - the culture of White people sans any ethnically unique things (like say my own Norwegian culture, which I absolutely celebrate with food and traditions) not found elsewhere - is just the default culture of the United States. It's the culture that we all live and exist in - from movies, to food, to traditions, to values and music. So defining it as "White Culture" is literally just saying "American Culture... except without any persons of color." Because it is otherwise difficult, if not impossible, to define anything distinctly unique about "White Culture" as a whole that is not also shared by literally every group - white or nonwhite - in the US.

Whereas "Black Culture" for example is specifically about celebrating cultural elements that were suppressed, marginalized, and excluded from the overall American culture.

So when you talk about wanting to celebrate White Culture, you first have to ask yourself "how is White Culture actually distinct from just 'culture'?" You quickly find out that any attempts to do that in a non-racist or exclusionary way end up being nonsensical.

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JanitorBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
BlackBlade: I actually specifically addressed that point in my reply to you two pages back. It would make me very happy if you didn't ignore it outright.

Since I don't want to rehash that entire post, and since it seems like you're stuck at the same point again, let me just ask: what does celebrating "White Culture", or "Straight Culture" actually mean? Can you really define it in a way that doesn't just describe "culture"? Because that's where Stone Wolf has consistently tripped up, and I think you might have some issues as well.

The thing is "White Culture" - the culture of White people sans any ethnically unique things (like say my own Norwegian culture, which I absolutely celebrate with food and traditions) not found elsewhere - is just the default culture of the United States. It's the culture that we all live and exist in - from movies, to food, to traditions, to values and music. So defining it as "White Culture" is literally just saying "American Culture... except without any persons of color." Because it is otherwise difficult, if not impossible, to define anything distinctly unique about "White Culture" as a whole that is not also shared by literally every group - white or nonwhite - in the US.

Whereas "Black Culture" for example is specifically about celebrating cultural elements that were suppressed, marginalized, and excluded from the overall American culture.

So when you talk about wanting to celebrate White Culture, you first have to ask yourself "how is White Culture actually distinct from just 'culture'?" You quickly find out that any attempts to do that in a non-racist or exclusionary way end up being nonsensical.

I didn't ignore your post. I even typed out a response. When the forum wasn't accepting new posts the other day it got eaten. I've spent a good deal of time reflecting on what I wanted to say in response. Sorry I didn't say something sooner.

quote:
Would you say any of those things are unique in that they don't affect polyamorous and/or homosexual relationships or family units?
They affect them often differently. Take polyamory, in a homosexual married couple the results are possible jealousy, degeneration of the relationship, and STDs. For a heterosexual couple the results are possible jealousy, degeneration of relationship, STDs, and children without a well defined parental arrangement, possible abortion, court time and resources spent trying to hammer out living arrangements for the children, and payments from the parent who isn't going to provide accommodations. And children who grow up with a pretty significant handicap due to an absent parent.


A dearth of positive media portrayals of male father figures will not effect lesbian couples in the same way a heterosexual couple might be.

Alcoholism might cause fetal alcohol syndrome in a heterosexual couple's children, but not necessarily in two gay men who have adopted children. Though of course that doesn't mean alcoholism has no effects, just different ones.

Heterosexual couples often unintentionally enter parenthood (I did), and so they need especial attention in that that risk needs to be minimized. Homosexual couples have the luxury of being far more deliberate in raising children.

Obviously bisexual further complicate these things. In any case, I think adultery and polyamory are devastating for children's needs (I'm aware you linked an article suggesting it's not harmful, I haven't had a chance to review it.)

quote:
The thing is "White Culture" - the culture of White people sans any ethnically unique things (like say my own Norwegian culture, which I absolutely celebrate with food and traditions) not found elsewhere - is just the default culture of the United States.
That's a fair point. But now you are saying to those who do not have an outside American heritage that they are aware of can only celebrate their national heritage, and that their ethnic heritage can only be problematic. Many white Americans (Just like black Americans) do not have a defined country or even region they are aware they belong to.

I get that celebrations of black culture are in part attempting to own and turn around a concept that has been wickedly impugned. But if that's the case, many minority writers write that color blindness isn't the end-goal because that is pretending race doesn't exist which is racist.

So in the end, we have black Americans who can celebrate being black and whites who can only celebrate being Americans perpetually?

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by JanitorBlade:
That's a fair point. But now you are saying to those who do not have an outside American heritage that they are aware of can only celebrate their national heritage, and that their ethnic heritage can only be problematic. Many white Americans (Just like black Americans) do not have a defined country or even region they are aware they belong to.

No I'm not. Where on Earth did I say that?

quote:
I get that celebrations of black culture are in part attempting to own and turn around a concept that has been wickedly impugned. But if that's the case, many minority writers write that color blindness isn't the end-goal because that is pretending race doesn't exist which is racist.

So in the end, we have black Americans who can celebrate being black and whites who can only celebrate being Americans perpetually?

BlackBlade: Please read my post again and answer the question. How exactly do you "celebrate being white" in a way that is distinct from celebrating being American? What does "celebrating white culture" actually mean?
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kmbboots
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If they aren't celebrating a national or specific ethnic heritage what is there to celebrate? What qualities or traditions that are specific to white culture? Food? Music? Art?
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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by JanitorBlade:
They affect them often differently.

Yes, but you are actually saying that they are affected much worse. Or if not, why would traditional marriages need special protection and safeguarding?

quote:
Take polyamory, in a homosexual married couple the results are possible jealousy, degeneration of the relationship, and STDs. For a heterosexual couple the results are possible jealousy, degeneration of relationship, STDs, and children without a well defined parental arrangement, possible abortion, court time and resources spent trying to hammer out living arrangements for the children, and payments from the parent who isn't going to provide accommodations. And children who grow up with a pretty significant handicap due to an absent parent.
Those are all things that are possible in a monogamous relationship as well, though. Do you think STDs only occur in polyamorous relationships? Why would the partners in, say, a 3 partner relationship be more likely to get STDs than those in a 2-partner? Do you think they would be more likely to have affairs or not use protection?

Likewise for "jealousy, degeneration of relationship" etc.

quote:
A dearth of positive media portrayals of male father figures will not effect lesbian couples in the same way a heterosexual couple might be.
Are we suffering from a dearth of positive media portrayals of male father figures?

quote:

Heterosexual couples often unintentionally enter parenthood (I did), and so they need especial attention in that that risk needs to be minimized. Homosexual couples have the luxury of being far more deliberate in raising children.

So heterosexual parents should be given special treatment, status, or privileges since they may have entered parenthood unintentionally?

FWIW I agree that new parents, especially low-income parents, should obviously be a focus for social programs, especially as far as extending maternity leave/paternity leave, food stamps, child care, etc. I just don't agree with you that we should exclude homosexual couples from that because they have that "luxury."

quote:
Obviously bisexual further complicate these things. In any case, I think adultery and polyamory are devastating for children's needs (I'm aware you linked an article suggesting it's not harmful, I haven't had a chance to review it.)
Why?

Also, do you realize adultery and polyamory are, practically speaking, two entirely different concepts?

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
What is white culture?

quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
If they aren't celebrating a national or specific ethnic heritage what is there to celebrate? What qualities or traditions that are specific to white culture? Food? Music? Art?

BB: I wanted to point out that Kate has asked you the same question several times as well. It's not just me picking on you or hounding you or something. You and SW both have the tendency to, in retrospect, single me out as the bad guy for asking you these sorts of questions in discussions where quite a few people actually have participated and asked you the same questions in the same way.

(I should note in this discussion in particular, Kate has been a lot more terse and direct with SW than I have (as have Tom, and Sam, and Rakeesh...), but I have still been given the bad guy label, and I'm trying to ask you not to do the same. Your decision to pretty much summarize my contributions here as "Dogbreath telling me that my insistence on tone in conversation is wrong at times" when that is something just about everyone has told you, and specifically is something I haven't really discussed much at all with you compared to Sam, Rakeesh, Lyrhawn, or kmbboots, whereas summarizing Kate's as "kmbboots desire that we all treat people humanely" is the sort of thing I'm talking about. It's both unkind and unfair)

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kmbboots
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I agree. I am much less patient with this crap than Dogbreath is.
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King of Men
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I celebrate white culture by wearing a tricolour ribbon, with the lion rampant in a floret, on May 17th; and a red poppy on November 11th.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Heya DB...if you want to talk in private about why you get that label...I'm game. But privately. My email is public. [Smile]
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Dogbreath
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Since you've decided to be very public about assigning that label and talking about how much you hate my posts, why wouldn't you make your justification for that behavior public as well?
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Stone_Wolf_
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Because I'm not interested in justifications. Or public opinion.

If -you- want to hear -my- opinion, I'm down to talk to you.

However, our personalities rubbing has derailed more than one legit convo, time to take that shjt private bro.

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Dogbreath
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You realize that "shjt" has been a year-long litany of you periodically, vociferously declaring how much you despise me, countered by me asking "why?", right? Why on Earth would I give you a means to harass me in private too?
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JanitorBlade
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quote:
BB: I wanted to point out that Kate has asked you the same question several times as well. It's not just me picking on you or hounding you or something. You and SW both have the tendency to, in retrospect, single me out as the bad guy for asking you these sorts of questions in discussions where quite a few people actually have participated and asked you the same questions in the same way.

Huh? Did I say something that implied you were a bad guy? I've told you not to tell me what I know, and I've pointed out when it seems like you are angry/frustrated with me. Also, Kate hasn't said anything directly to me that was terse or rude.
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JanitorBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by JanitorBlade:
Wait a second. You are insisting that celebrating Whiteness *must* also include the very anti-statements that Stone_Wolf has just said he does not mean.


Yes. I am saying that, other than in the fantasy that SW and some others pretend, celebrating whiteness is anti-not white. And pro-straight is anti-gay.
I guess I'm struggling with the idea that it must be that way. I feel like that speaks to us failing in some way, rather than whiteness in of itself can only be understood in terms of what it isn't. It feels wrong.

So had black Americans not been treated poorly and segregated, there would be no black American culture worth celebrating and to do so would only be to celebrate non-whiteness?

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by JanitorBlade:
So had black Americans not been treated poorly and segregated, there would be no black American culture worth celebrating and to do so would only be to celebrate non-whiteness?

Why are we talking about hypothetical fantasy worlds here?

But lets go with that fantasy. For it to be possible, then it's an alternate universe where slavery never happened, where segregation never happened, where black people were not oppressed, ghettoized, and marginalized to the point where "black" became a cultural group with it's own music, slang, traditions, food, and social norms separate from the rest of American culture.

Well in that fantasy word, then, "black American culture" wouldn't exist as we know it. There might be Nigerian culture and Kenyan culture (or their non-colonial influenced approximation) for sure, who knows. But your question is utter nonsense since you're asking hypothetical questions about "how would a culture that arose from oppression be treated if that oppression didn't exist?" And the answer of course is that culture wouldn't exist as we know it, either.

Meanwhile, in the real world, where all those things we talked about really, truly happened, you have yet to answer the simple question you've been asked many times now. What is "white culture"? How do you "celebrate white culture"? Is there any difference between "white culture" and American culture?

Please answer. Because it's kind of silly for you to keep bemoaning how it's not acceptable to "celebrate white culture" when you keep refusing to define that term.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Because I'm not interested in justifications. Or public opinion.

If -you- want to hear -my- opinion, I'm down to talk to you.

However, our personalities rubbing has derailed more than one legit convo, time to take that shjt private bro.

Unless the justifications are yours, it seems. And then only for a little while until you are asked specific questions about it and then it's time for more la la fiddle dee dee whimsy, which will be rolled back later for a jab about how someone isn't speaking to you appropriately, and you'll have time to devote to *that*-more time, in fact, than you do to address direct questions.

Asserting a direct challenge to a point of view is not more rude than taking a jab at someone and then getting all whimsical. Quite the contrary, in fact.

---------

BB,

I think that in America society, 'white culture' simply doesn't need explanation because it is the water everyone swims in. Music, television, film, politics, religion, economics, sexuality, and so many more things are not only white in the Midwest where demographically that is more accurate. They're white in, say, Washington DC or Los Angeles, two of the most diverse cities in the country. New York.

To a certain extent this is unavoidable. For most of American history, we have been overwhelmingly white-though there are some big old asterisks there, too. But in a magical time-altering fantasy where America's legacy of race relations wasn't riddled with hypocrisy and crimes against humanity, sure, it wouldn't be important to celebrate any minority culture nor would it be objectionable for the majority to celebrate theirs. Insofar as they have one on the broadest basis of 'white culture'.

But a white Anglo-descended American isn't called British-American. Nor Scottish, Germans, or Irish. I'm not saying those categories don't exist, but when was the last time they were even mentioned much less specified in a discussion about race? Such cultures don't *need* an extra label because of the implicit assumption that they're American. The very fact that we have labels for other groups demonstrates its not true of them.

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
You realize that "shjt" has been a year-long litany of you periodically, vociferously declaring how much you despise me, countered by me asking "why?", right? Why on Earth would I give you a means to harass me in private too?

Than do us a favor & don't act like..."what did I do? " Cause I offered to answer & you demurred.
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Because I'm not interested in justifications. Or public opinion.

If -you- want to hear -my- opinion, I'm down to talk to you.

However, our personalities rubbing has derailed more than one legit convo, time to take that shjt private bro.

Unless the justifications are yours, it seems. And then only for a little while until you are asked specific questions about it and then it's time for more la la fiddle dee dee whimsy, which will be rolled back later for a jab about how someone isn't speaking to you appropriately, and you'll have time to devote to *that*-more time, in fact, than you do to address direct questions.

Asserting a direct challenge to a point of view is not more rude than taking a jab at someone and then getting all whimsical. Quite the contrary, in fact.

I can appreciate that y'all aren't happy w me...I'm just trying to stay on topic. And not let individual personality disputes bog down otherwise interesting discussion. Sometimes more successful than others.

However it's an open invitation. Anyone who wants to discuss what they feel are my personal short comings or resolve or even escalate any other non relavant to discussion subjects...my email is public. [Smile]

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
But lets go with that fantasy. For it to be possible, then it's an alternate universe where slavery never happened, where segregation never happened, where black people were not oppressed, ghettoized, and marginalized to the point where "black" became a cultural group with it's own music, slang, traditions, food, and social norms separate from the rest of American culture.
Then why are Irish just folded in w white? They had a -very- similar new world experience.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by JanitorBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by JanitorBlade:
Wait a second. You are insisting that celebrating Whiteness *must* also include the very anti-statements that Stone_Wolf has just said he does not mean.


Yes. I am saying that, other than in the fantasy that SW and some others pretend, celebrating whiteness is anti-not white. And pro-straight is anti-gay.
I guess I'm struggling with the idea that it must be that way. I feel like that speaks to us failing in some way, rather than whiteness in of itself can only be understood in terms of what it isn't. It feels wrong.

So had black Americans not been treated poorly and segregated, there would be no black American culture worth celebrating and to do so would only be to celebrate non-whiteness?

Had we not kidnapped, murdered, raped and enslaved them for generations, making them chattel, and stripping their heritage and families from them, (or, as you say, poorly treated them) I imagine immigrants from Africa to the US would celebrate the various national and tribal foods, arts, music, traditions of their ancestors and families much like Irish Americans or Scandanavian Americans, or Italian Americans celebrate now.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Cut this "we" crap out. Not only did anyone alive have anything to do w it, many of our ansesters had -nothing- to do with it...such as mine.
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kmbboots
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We Americans. We white people. Do you object when someone says "we won WW II"? Not always so eager to embrace white culture (which you still refuse to define) are you?
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote:
But lets go with that fantasy. For it to be possible, then it's an alternate universe where slavery never happened, where segregation never happened, where black people were not oppressed, ghettoized, and marginalized to the point where "black" became a cultural group with it's own music, slang, traditions, food, and social norms separate from the rest of American culture.
Then why are Irish just folded in w white? They had a -very- similar new world experience.
Yeah. Not really. I will wager I know far more Irish history than you do and I can say that, while a great deal of the Irish immigrant experience was pretty terrible, it came nowhere near the experience of African slaves.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Because I'm not interested in justifications. Or public opinion.

If -you- want to hear -my- opinion, I'm down to talk to you.

However, our personalities rubbing has derailed more than one legit convo, time to take that shjt private bro.

Unless the justifications are yours, it seems. And then only for a little while until you are asked specific questions about it and then it's time for more la la fiddle dee dee whimsy, which will be rolled back later for a jab about how someone isn't speaking to you appropriately, and you'll have time to devote to *that*-more time, in fact, than you do to address direct questions.

Asserting a direct challenge to a point of view is not more rude than taking a jab at someone and then getting all whimsical. Quite the contrary, in fact.

I can appreciate that y'all aren't happy w me...I'm just trying to stay on topic. And not let individual personality disputes bog down otherwise interesting discussion. Sometimes more successful than others.

However it's an open invitation. Anyone who wants to discuss what they feel are my personal short comings or resolve or even escalate any other non relavant to discussion subjects...my email is public. [Smile]

Except that you aren't consistently trying to stay on topic. At least three times you've pivoted to whimsy and left questions unanswered.

As for the email matter, why on earth should anyone take criticisms to email when you are happy to air yours publicly? It's a blatant double standard. People ask you direct, relevant questions without jumping through the unspoken hoops and you criticize them for it. If they take issue with *that*, sudden I you're trying to stay on topic and you're the better person and let's discuss in email?

That goes triple for DB, of course. You've flipped out on him multiple times in the past and even though he's only asking direct, topical questions he *still* gets busted on for being mean or whatever? (How soon until other people are bullies again?)

As for your question about the Irish, for about the ninth time now the answer is context. We aren't living in 19th century America anymore. Or even early 20th century America. We are in fact living in early 21st century America. The days of legal and cultural bigotry against the Irish are long gone.

The Irish have st Patrick's day, and it's a holiday everyone either likes or is indifferent to. Meanwhile Kwanzaa is part of a war on Christmas and goddamned if we can't go a February without hearing some entitled white jackass whining 'what about white history month?' A sizable percentage of Americas still believe Barack Obama is from Kenya-we've even got one here-and correct me if I'm wrong but fears about Catholics and loyalty to the pope is more or less gone also.

What about the Irish? Seriously?

----

Anyway, in lieu of an actual answer to an oft repeated question 'what does celebrating white culture mean?' I'll posit an answer. I suspect, not unlike being 'pro-straight', it involves celebrating (and thus claiming) very broad positive virtues such as ambition, hard work, bravery, industry, and so on, while neglecting to remember that none of those are actually white at all but human traits instead.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Cut this "we" crap out. Not only did anyone alive have anything to do w it, many of our ansesters had -nothing- to do with it...such as mine.

Yeah, nonsense. That land you're living on? California if I recall correctly? Stolen from thieves at gunpoint. The land your ancestors crossed to get to that stolen land was crossed on railroads that didn't lets just say have the strictest concern for workers' or even human rights. The ships they crossed the Atlantic in? There's a very good chance they had ties to the slave trade. The clothes they wore when they got to America? That fabric came from somewhere.

If you want to say it's unreasonable to carry that stuff forward into the present, alright. It's a silly argument that doesn't withstand much knowledge of history, but a case could be made. But don't let's pretend your ancestors or mine had 'nothing to do with it'.

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Rakeesh
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Oh, wow, I missed the Irish 'very similar' immigration experience to African slaves.

There are basically just three ways that could be said: a profound racism and indifference to past bigotry, a very large degree of ignorance of Irish American and African American (case in point, one is specific to nation, the other to continent) history, or a fit of picque.

Because no, the Irish experience was not-not not not not- 'very similar' to slaves. Or even similar. Holy shit, man.

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Stone_Wolf_
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My bad...I meant "Irish had a very similar experience as free blacks in the 1800s."

I was using poor short hand.

And it was bad example of the idea I was trying to communicate.

I guess my definition of "racist" might be out of date...i.e. treating a person of one race differently than another because of race.

So...my point that I'm struggling to get out is...the rules for what is and what is not racist seem to be inconsistant.

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Stone_Wolf_
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And if anyone has a problem with me just start a new thread and I'll try & participate...I'm just not wanting to derail topical conversation.
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zlogdanbr
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by zlogdanbr:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
So what do you mean by traditional families. Why "traditional"? What would a non-traditional family be?

It is a all a matter of semantics km, let me rephrase that ( my first language is not English and perhaps that is the case of confusion ).

I think a family based on father and mother was pivotal to the development of our society but I do not think on same sex marriage as bad or evil.


Just inferior?
You are the one implying that although I would say that such logic is devoid of reason because it is impossible to judge families based on concepts like inferior or superior .

One certainly enjoys the family she or he is part of. The mere fact ( Stone Wolf has been saying this more eloquently than me ) we enjoy our families does not mean we hate other families.

What is probably dangerous is to assume hatred comes from those feelings.

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Heisenberg
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Just a couple comments.

King Of Men - I only became aware of the poppy tradition when I moved back to England.
Here, at least, they're worn in remembrance of the war dead. I'm curious how that has been adapted to celebrate white culture in Scandinavia?

I actually have identified and announced myself as British American, but that was only because I was actually born in the UK and my immediate family still had customs and beliefs that had been brought over from there. Even still, there was one very big difference for me; it was entirely up to me when and how I announced that status, at least once my accent had faded.

People are correct in noting how unfairly Dogbreath has been treated. He is never anything but respectful, even at times when the rest of us would be pulling our hair out and cussing the other guy out. He gets it because he's a known safe target as compared to the rest of us that usually share his opinions. To single him out for being mean or whatever, when there are plenty of other people with the same opinion as him who are a whole lot more straightforward and terse, is simply cowardly.

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Heisenberg
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quote:
Originally posted by zlogdanbr:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by zlogdanbr:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
So what do you mean by traditional families. Why "traditional"? What would a non-traditional family be?

It is a all a matter of semantics km, let me rephrase that ( my first language is not English and perhaps that is the case of confusion ).

I think a family based on father and mother was pivotal to the development of our society but I do not think on same sex marriage as bad or evil.


Just inferior?
You are the one implying that although I would say that such logic is devoid of reason because it is impossible to judge families based on concepts like inferior or superior .

One certainly enjoys the family she or he is part of. The mere fact ( Stone Wolf has been saying this more eloquently than me ) we enjoy our families does not mean we hate other families.

What is probably dangerous is to assume hatred comes from those feelings.

I don't assume hatred. I assume ignorance at best, and apathy towards the genuine concern and possible suffering of others at worst.
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zlogdanbr
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quote:
Originally posted by Heisenberg:
quote:
Originally posted by zlogdanbr:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by zlogdanbr:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
So what do you mean by traditional families. Why "traditional"? What would a non-traditional family be?

It is a all a matter of semantics km, let me rephrase that ( my first language is not English and perhaps that is the case of confusion ).

I think a family based on father and mother was pivotal to the development of our society but I do not think on same sex marriage as bad or evil.


Just inferior?
You are the one implying that although I would say that such logic is devoid of reason because it is impossible to judge families based on concepts like inferior or superior .

One certainly enjoys the family she or he is part of. The mere fact ( Stone Wolf has been saying this more eloquently than me ) we enjoy our families does not mean we hate other families.

What is probably dangerous is to assume hatred comes from those feelings.

I don't assume hatred. I assume ignorance at best, and apathy towards the genuine concern and possible suffering of others at worst.
So to like your family is ignorance unless it is a SSM family?
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Rakeesh
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I'm almost certain she meant that she didn't assume hatred but rather ignorance on the part of those who felt non-traditional families must be inherently inferior.

quote:
You are the one implying that although I would say that such logic is devoid of reason because it is impossible to judge families based on concepts like inferior or superior .

One certainly enjoys the family she or he is part of. The mere fact ( Stone Wolf has been saying this more eloquently than me ) we enjoy our families does not mean we hate other families.

What is probably dangerous is to assume hatred comes from those feelings.

It's certainly not impossible to judge a family as inferior or superior on the basis of sexuality, zlog. I'm not sure why you would assert that, as such judgments happen all the time everywhere.

Also, it's not a given that someone enjoys their own family.

Finally, Stone_Wolf has gone further than saying 'I am pro-straight because I enjoy my own family'. For example, suggesting that there is a mystic bond experienced by a straight family that is unattainable by homosexual couples or adoptive couples. Unless he was claiming that the connection to the infinite was entirely a neutral thing devoid of value-and clearly he wasn't-that is a judgment of heterosexual families as superior.

------------

quote:
My bad...I meant "Irish had a very similar experience as free blacks in the 1800s."

I was using poor short hand.

And it was bad example of the idea I was trying to communicate.

I guess my definition of "racist" might be out of date...i.e. treating a person of one race differently than another because of race.

So...my point that I'm struggling to get out is...the rules for what is and what is not racist seem to be inconsistant.

OK, so you meant that the Irish had similar experiences to free blacks in the United States in the 1800s. People misspeak all the time, I've certainly done so.

It's still complete nonsense. Were the Irish regarded as 3/5s a person, for example? Could any Irish person at all face the fear of being abducted and sold into slavery as a supposed 'fugitive' slave? Was it completely impossible for a given Irish person to attempt assimilation and gain acceptance into the broader culture in the United States in the 1800s? Could the Irish enlist in the military at the same pay, could they run for elected office, did they face the same sorts of hurdles when they tried to vote? Oh, and were there millions of Irish throughout the country, not just in the South, kept in slavery?

Then no, Stone_Wolf. The Irish did not have a similar experience to free blacks in the United States in the 1800s. Unless you mean the similarity between bad and extremely catastrophically bad. It will be interesting to see whether or not this was another 'misspeaking'.

Anyway, this is one of the reasons there are people who are frustrated with you in this discussion. You say some of the right, politically correct things. You don't see color, people should strive for a society beyond racism, change starts from within, etc. etc. All of those things are nice, but they are also easy to say. But when it comes down to brass tacks of actually discussing what is or has gone on in the world, you utterly, utterly softball things like past racism and its legacy. For example, by claiming first that the Irish had a very similar experience to blacks in the United States in the 1800s, and then to blacks who weren't slaves in the 1800s. There's also the problem that this is so often a rallying cry of those who wish to dismiss racism and its legacies in a more direct, less na´ve and more cynical way by claiming 'my ancestors were Irish and we lifted ourselves up, why can't the blacks?'

Which is a thing that has been said and continues to be said. Well, good for the Irish ancestors. Seriously, I do mean that. But not all struggles are equal, and in fact some struggles are incredibly, ridiculously out of balance. If you don't believe me, ask Lyrhawn about it. He is almost certainly the most informed on this board on the time period, and you've held him up as an example before. If he were to weigh in and support the claim that the discrimination faced by the Irish in the 1800s and free African-Americas in the United States at the same time, I would happily eat some crow.

And finally, no, what is deemed racist is not inconsistent. Every example of 'inconsistency' that has been brought up here has been addressed. For example, the supposed 'inconsistency' of why it is acceptable to say 'black is beautiful' versus 'white is beautiful'. Or black lives matter. Just because you've largely ignored thosepoints doesn't mean they haven't been made.

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