posted
As for basing your vote on how things in your particular district or state will go, I understand the impulse, but consider this: politicians and campaigns make decisions on how to handle a given district, what courses to take and promises to make, on the basis of things like past voting, polling data, surveys, registered voter numbers, etc.
So yes, if you vote or not may not have an impact in your district depending on if you're a fish out of water or one more animal in the herd. But it can have an impact on how much of a fight politicians and campaigners have to put up to secure your district. Yes, this impact will be very small in the grand scheme of things but we're a nation of hundreds of millions. Or as others have noted, it may not be so small at all if you're down on the local level.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Originally posted by Rakeesh " I'm not sure why voluntarily giving up your stake in the system without a struggle is better than at least using it to have some influence that means you have, well, some influence as well as some responsibility."
So you would rather have more people vote, even if they were uninformed, than less, but better informed voters?
posted
No. I said informed. It is the duty of citizens in a democracy to be informed. Government by the people, after all.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: No. I said informed. It is the duty of citizens in a democracy to be informed. Government by the people, after all.
Oh, I agree that those exercising the rights of a citizen is obligated to be informed. Since I am not, I do not inflict my ignorance on others.
As to Rakeesh's question...it totally can be both, laziness & mistrust. I don't kno why those two are mutually exclusive.
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You are a citizen - and enjoy the rights of citizenship - whether you do your civic duty or not. All you are arguing here is whether it is better to do your duty badly or not at all.
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SW, I'm not sure if being an informed voter is quite the herculean task you make it out to be. The process I described for primary elections earlier - going through and researching every candidate and major issue on the local, state, and national level - takes maybe 20 hours every year. And it gets easier every year, once you get a better understanding of various political offices and their respective duties and responsibilities. If you wanted just a cursory understanding of the election, there are tons of websites willing to summarize all that for you, and you could get enough information to make your decision in 2 or 3 hours. It's not like you have to go to political rallies or follow the news every day (though you should), thanks to the internet everything you need to be a reasonably informed voter is right there at your fingertips.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
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That doesn't follow from my statement. My statement suggests both are bad-voluntarily deciding not to vote out of apathy, laziness, cynicism, what have you; and voting on a straight party line, though poorly informed, because you believe it's the best choice. Pointing out that both of two choices are bad isn't a suggestion that one should be picked, since they aren't the only choices at all, actually.
Anyway, I generally will think that choosing what you think will make a better world is better than giving up without a fight because it's too hard or won't work, even if the choice you make doesn't make the world better. In moral terms, anyway. In practical terms it's a different question.
I don't know why you're continuing to assert this false dichotomy. Who has suggested 'we need lots and lots more uninformed voters?' No one I have seen. I'll also note that there are questions about your position raised by myself and others that you haven't addressed (this is just a reminder, not an attack; you're busy as you've said) such as: why should we think that the majority of citizens, who don't vote, hold matching beliefs and would vote in matching ways to the small minority of citizens who do vote, and would thus lead to the same results we currently see?
It doesn't make sense. Anyone can rail against the system all they like, and holy hell with lots of good reason, but there is still one fundamental principle and truth of our system and that is that the representatives, presidents, sometimes judges, etc., that we elect are put into power ultimately by votes won in free public elections. Therefore however far removed, and however small, it is still the people which decide the outcome. Trouble is we've generally allowed ourselves to be duped-such as the majority of citizens who don't show up to the polls because the system is corrupt, leaving it entirely in the hands of those voters who disagree.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:[As to Rakeesh's question...it totally can be both, laziness & mistrust. I don't kno why those two are mutually exclusive.
I was referring to the question of whether it was laziness/cynicism that prevented you from voting, or being too busy. Because if you're so busy you can't make the time every couple of years to investigate some issues and politicians and vote, what does it matter whether or not the system is so bad there's no point? Likewise in reverse.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Well...one of them anyway. I fulfill the vast majority of my duties.
What other duties/responsibilities does an American citizen have with respect to helping to make decisions that the country they reside in whose officials will speak in their name? And please don't say paying taxes. In many cases you don't have a choice about that (sales taxes, income taxes). Raising and supporting a family doesn't exactly count either, since people generally don't say 'I am a good father/mother because it's my duty as an American!'. Obeying laws, well see the question of being compelled to do that as well.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I would say this to anyone, so please don't take it as a personal attack, but in what ways are paying taxes and obeying laws patriotic qualities? Or if that was a joke, what activities or beliefs are patriotic? Just some of the big ones, I mean.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Also...I don't complain about the government much anymore. 100% of my family's income is signed by Uncle Sam. Medical too. I'd rather my beloved wife wasn't disabled, or that disability didn't use monkeys for the vetting process, but all in all I have nothing to complain about.
Heck, because of Obama my private school loan is zero dollars a month...and (assuming no change) will be paid off by the government including intrest after twentyfive years.
Careful with that.
I'm pretty sure you have to claim the interest written off as income at the end of your 25 year term, though I'm hoping them come up with a fix for that.
I think I'm on the 25 year plan as well at the moment, and currently pay $0 (on my public loans), but that'll go up to around $150 soon, where it's likely to stay for some time. At the end of my loan term, my loan, through interest, will have jumped from it's original roughly $30,000 to well over $100,000 thanks to 25 years of interest. My understanding is that I have to pay taxes on every dollar forgiven as if it were income. Depending on what the tax brackets are at the time, I wouldn't be surprised if they try to make me pay a $30,000 tax bill...or exactly what I originally borrowed.
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Stone Wolf is an excellent example for why proportional representation and ranked voting need to be enacted.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I don't know why you're continuing to assert this false dichotomy. Who has suggested 'we need lots and lots more uninformed voters?' No one I have seen.
You don't think that people study up, make themselves into informed citizens and then choose not to vote do you? The message of "Rock the Vote" & "Vote or Die" as well as a common attitude here is "Everyone should vote!" NOT "Everyone should be an informed voter!" (cept boots...I think that is her message...and it works!)
quote:... why should we think that the majority of citizens, who don't vote, hold matching beliefs and would vote in matching ways to the small minority of citizens who do vote, and would thus lead to the same results we currently see?
Part of that was ignorance on my part, that Samp helped clear up. But part of that sentiment stems from a fundamental unhappiness with the system. That only having two choices, if both are bad, is silly and frustrating. Basically, my presidential vote is meaningless! A) I vote along with California...result...55 electoral votes to Dem B) I vote against California for Rep...result...same C) I vote Lib...result...same D) I stay home...result...same.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I find your nihilism unimpressive Rock Dawg. I feel like, that considering a modern developed country has a mostly educated populace that you'll mostly have a voting population of mostly informed voters. (If 100% of the population votes, right now only 30% votes? So you have your most motivated voting, not necessarily your most informed)
People died to get you that right, people are actively striving to deny that right, this very moment for millions of Americans and your just stating flatout that voting would be too much effort to satisfy an arbitrary standard that only YOU placed on yourself, that you be "sufficiently informed".
Its EASY to be informed, for local elections just READ THEIR WEBSITE, what ISSUES do they support, do they mostly match your issues? And work you're way up until national Senate, Congressional, and Presidential elections in which case just go on goddamn reddit; or take those online ideology tests*.
Like I dunno man, what if tomorrow some Republican politician decided that your vote was too dangerous because they think your a hipster democratic leaning yuppie and decides to change the law a little so your name is invalidated from the voter rolls? That should anger you enough to vote every election.
*Though they can be inaccurate, my "first choice" are the ultranationalist French separatist party for some strange reason that my friend is convinced is because I support extremely odd non-mainstream issues like increased immigration which somehow outweighs my disgust for Quebec leaving Canada.
Posts: 12931 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Seems like you are a little late to the discussion for indignation.
Also, I'm a white male land owner...I'm pretty sure that the people who died to secure voter rights didn't have me in mind, being the second most protected group behind -wealthy- white male land owners.
I said I would vote...with the help of the Rack.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Seems like you are a little late to the discussion for indignation.
You realize you're posting in a thread he started, right? And that he's been participating in it this entire time?
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
Something to consider, since as a newcomer I can see how the entire slate of choices could be daunting. Though I will say that as others have said becoming informed isn't difficult at all, given the lengths of time involved, but the responsibility is and should be daunting: just pick a few candidates and issues in your next local or state election. You don't have to investigate all of them. Just a small handful-you can get a feel for things that way, and you don't have to even enter anything for other races. After all, your voice wasn't beinf heard in them anyway-what's an extra term or two?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
No, and thanks for checking. It was a serious statement that the loss in an extra term or two of your voice not being heard in some races isn't that much in the context of never having been heard before. And there is value in acclimating yourself to voting and learning about the choices to your satisfaction before jumping all the way in.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Three birds with one stone: Cutting programs that help people out of poverty, cutting down on the dangerous (and less easily led) "intellectual elite", and getting rid of bastions of progressive voters.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Boy, am I glad I didn't take a job at the University of Wisconsin 7 years ago!
In that time, you would have had one 2% raise, seen the cost of living go up 14%, been required to take six weeks off without pay, and had your contract changed without your consent to double the cost of your healthcare and halve your pension.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: No, and thanks for checking. It was a serious statement that the loss in an extra term or two of your voice not being heard in some races isn't that much in the context of never having been heard before. And there is value in acclimating yourself to voting and learning about the choices to your satisfaction before jumping all the way in.
Thanks for the encouragement!
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