You know, whatever good he has to say in his article, the point implied by his article - that his story of "joined the military from a hick town and somehow managed to get my life turned around to become a Bo-Na-Fied college graduate, gosh almighty" is somehow the exception to the rule rather than, you know, a common result and indeed even the reason most people enlist - is extremely grating.
Also, the notion that the military is this giant, monolithic bloc that votes entirely Republican rather than leaning to the right a few percentage points more than the general population, or that that this lean can be more or less entirely explained by the fact that it's 85.4% male and the disproportion number of it's members who come from rural areas, is annoying.
I realize I'm probably way too sensitive to that issue, but I get a little annoyed when I meet people back home who learned I was in the military/learn that I'm a veteran and automatically feel comfortable sharing whatever homophobic or right wing crap because they're just sure I share their values, or when liberals I meet comment on just how advanced and articulate and thoughtful I seem to be considering my background like one would talk to a special needs kid (and yes, I realize they mean well and take it as the compliment it is and am not a dick about it)... I feel like there's this general ignorance of the socioeconomic, cultural, racial and political mixing pot the actual military is. And I feel like this guy using his military experience to highlight just how gosh darn conservative he was is just playing off that stereotype while reinforcing it.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Stone Wolf is an excellent example for why proportional representation and ranked voting need to be enacted.
Would you please expand on this?
A winner take all system, especially one like ours so muddled with gerrymandering, is practically designed to drive down turnout. Few districts are genuinely contested, so a large number of people don't think their vote matters, because in reality, it really doesn't. In fact, in most districts, your vote is designed not to matter.
With proportional representation, everyone's vote matters. The electorate is proportional represented in congress. Did you know that in the last two elections, more people voted for democrats in the House than republicans? For four years, we will have a congress that does NOT reflect the will of the people. Proportional voting ensures you will never feel like your vote doesn't count, because it can't be diluted via cartography
Ranked voting let's you pick more than one candidate. So you can vote for the longshot, and when he loses, your vote goes to your second choice. This encourages people not to vote defensively, which all too often we feel compelled to do, to vote for the lesser of two evils.
Both would be worthwhile changes here
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Is that misguided anger? Or whaa?
No, you made a joke about how you only get 1/10th vote or whatever and then when I asked for an explanation you made it out like you were just responding to Lyrhawn's joke that I'm too dense to understand. Lyrhawn said pretty much exactly what I thought he meant, but I'm still just as baffled by your response to his "joke."
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Stone Wolf is an excellent example for why proportional representation and ranked voting need to be enacted.
Would you please expand on this?
A winner take all system, especially one like ours so muddled with gerrymandering, is practically designed to drive down turnout. Few districts are genuinely contested, so a large number of people don't think their vote matters, because in reality, it really doesn't. In fact, in most districts, your vote is designed not to matter.
With proportional representation, everyone's vote matters. The electorate is proportional represented in congress. Did you know that in the last two elections, more people voted for democrats in the House than republicans? For four years, we will have a congress that does NOT reflect the will of the people. Proportional voting ensures you will never feel like your vote doesn't count, because it can't be diluted via cartography
Ranked voting let's you pick more than one candidate. So you can vote for the longshot, and when he loses, your vote goes to your second choice. This encourages people not to vote defensively, which all too often we feel compelled to do, to vote for the lesser of two evils.
Both would be worthwhile changes here
Unless you *do* want the dude to specifically represent your riding/district (which doesn't usually work in P-R), so there's also: Single Transferable Vote which maintains ridings but also makes it more democratic ala P-R (I think its pretty much Improved Ranked Voting).
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: What would it take, do you think, for our system to adopt this, in what timeframe?
A constitutional convention would be required. And that has never been done (since 1787 anyway).
So...don't hold my breath. Our laws do have the ability tho...so what would it take to get a constitutional convention going? Maybe two or three...give gays the right to marry & untangle the 2nd so that we end up with intelligent gun laws nationwide?
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: What would it take, do you think, for our system to adopt this, in what timeframe?
A constitutional convention would be required. And that has never been done (since 1787 anyway).
So...don't hold my breath. Our laws do have the ability tho...so what would it take to get a constitutional convention going? Maybe two or three...give gays the right to marry & untangle the 2nd so that we end up with intelligent gun laws nationwide?
Why didn't you study government in high school? You should really know how this works.
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I will admit to some retroactive annoyance in past arguments, given that those sorts of questions are being asked now. But seriously, aside from scoring points is there a purpose to raking Stone_Wolf over the coals now for asking important questions? Yes, he should've known most of this stuff already, but he didn't and so he's asking now.
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Thanks...convincing argument.
What would it take, do you think, for our system to adopt this, in what timeframe?
A constitutional convention would be required. And that has never been done (since 1787 anyway).
Why would the non-convention amendment process not work? It's been done 17 times. (Counting the first ten as one "time.")
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Thanks...convincing argument.
What would it take, do you think, for our system to adopt this, in what timeframe?
A constitutional convention would be required. And that has never been done (since 1787 anyway).
Why would the non-convention amendment process not work? It's been done 17 times. (Counting the first ten as one "time.")
Legally, yes, that's possible. Practically speaking though, congress is chock full of people who would be voting themselves out of a job. The constitutional convention can be called by the state legislatures, bypassing congress. That is the only way I see this ever happening.
ETA: of course, it's all in the wording. Article 5 says that the state legislatures must still request a convention to be approved by congress- so congress still has some say, but it would be very hard for them to say no at that point.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Why didn't you study government in high school? You should really know how this works.
I got straight As in civics...two decades ago. I have had a general rule to stay away from politics. Being hot headed as I am such a volatile subject, not mention a father in law from Brooklyn who is...uh hum...the kind of tea party "conservative" who posts (almost) racest stuff about Obama on Facebook daily. Here are just a few of his posts from today.
quote: Congressional Republicans have no principles, no strategy and no guts...
FCC to regulate Israel: Obama seeks to silence "Net and Yahoo."
The Whitehouse now calls "Illegal Aliens" Americans in waiting. Your taxes.
The radical left wing of the Democrat Party wants a Police State.
I'm just saying coupled with a deep mistrust of the system even you might see why I have stayed away from the subject.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Everything I've heard Scott walker quoted in in the last month makes him sound like ten pounds of stupid in five pound crazy bag.
Every time I hear him attack people with formal education like his "I don't think you need a PhD to be president" and then declare that Reagans best foreign policy decision was firing US air traffic controllers, it convinces me more than ever that having a PhD actually should be required.
Or maybe just the same level of common sense that God gave a jar of sand
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: [qb] Why didn't you study government in high school? You should really know how this works.
I got straight As in civics...two decades ago. I have had a general rule to stay away from politics. Being hot headed as I am such a volatile subject, not mention a father in law from Brooklyn who is...uh hum...the kind of tea party "conservative" who posts (almost) racest stuff about Obama on Facebook daily. Here are just a few of his posts from today.
You have not applied that general rule to your postings here. It must be a *very* general rule. And congratulations on your As in civics. I don't remember my grades, but I do remember how the constitution is amended. I guess your priorities were different.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Look, I admit that hearing of Stone_Wolf's attitude towards voting and his knowledge of how American government works did chap my ass in light of past discussions. I don't think I've kept that quiet, and in any event I don't think it would surprise him that I felt that way anyway.
All of that said, though, I am still curious as to what the point of your needling is, Orincoro. He did cop openly to ignorance and past laziness and indifference on these topics. Should he qualify every post like that until some time in the future, or what?
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I appreciate your trying to get him to stop dude, but don't let it concern you. Orincoro has plenty of reasons to needle me, habit if nothing else. And whatever else the quality of my priorities, they got me my wife and our two precious children, so as far as I'm concerned -there- is an aspect of my life on which I have no regrets.
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It's not only about stopping him from hectoring, I am actually curious, is all. And critical obviously, but curious as well.
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The simple solution to my mind is that his snark has a hair trigger & unlike yourself & Samp, his disdain isn't as conditional or apropo. But that would only be a guess.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Well, speaking fairly and with candor about my own feelings, if we hadn't had our little detente, I would probably have heard your earlier statements about politics and voting with a great deal more scorn and frustration than I ended up doing. But I don't think Orincoro was a part of that whole kerfluffle, so perhaps his snark isn't as hair trigger but comes from a different context.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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It's within the realm of possibility that he has a purpose or at least a good explanation. But equal to greater odds on no good reason at all. No problem in asking in my book, but forgive me if I don't hold my breath on anything earth shattering.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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I'm curious, the "detente" (had to look it up) you mentioned...other than a group apology that went uncommented on, you & I and Orin & myself have had no formal words of truce that I can recall. You just stopped messing with me when I put effort at transparency (with thanks) whereas he didn't.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I appreciate your trying to get him to stop dude, but don't let it concern you. Orincoro has plenty of reasons to needle me, habit if nothing else. And whatever else the quality of my priorities, they got me my wife and our two precious children, so as far as I'm concerned -there- is an aspect of my life on which I have no regrets.
Well, ok then.
quote:The simple solution to my mind is that his snark has a hair trigger & unlike yourself & Samp, his disdain isn't as conditional or apropo. But that would only be a guess.
I don't disdain you. I find your self professed apathy to be insulting to those who have engaged you in discussion here.
quote: It's within the realm of possibility that he has a purpose or at least a good explanation. But equal to greater odds on no good reason at all. No problem in asking in my book, but forgive me if I don't hold my breath on anything earth shattering.
Your flippant hypocrisy in speaking this way about me is an example of what I find irritating about you. You combine smugness with apathy. It's unflattering.
And you know exactly what response you'll get for talking this way. As with all your recent talk about how much you're "trying," it's all wrapped in aggression and defensiveness that proves you're not really trying. You're lazy, and you are contemptible when you behave this way. I think you probably only do this because you don't know how else to behave. That's understandable, I guess. We're not all able to reconcile who we'd like to be, with who we really are.
quote:I'm curious, the "detente" (had to look it up) you mentioned...other than a group apology that went uncommented on, you & I and Orin & myself have had no formal words of truce that I can recall. You just stopped messing with me when I put effort at transparency (with thanks) whereas he didn't.
Some statement you made about yourself, which I didn't see, and which marked no detectable change in your outlook or behavior, is reason enough for me not to "mess" with you? And by that, I presume you mean to act towards you in a way you don't appreciate? You don't seem to care what others might appreciate from you. You've been quite explicit in that regard. I should treat you with kid gloves because you admit you're ignorant, despite continuing to be insufferable about that ignorance. No, I don't think so.
posted
Those are not my expectations from you. You seem to think I -really- care what you think...that was Rakeesh who was curious.
Personally if you turned over a new leaf, in regards to myself, it wouldn't change much...I've answered your questions as best I can as honestly as I can. I know that, so I haven't bothered to defend myself from you.
Hey, maybe you can't see my efforts...perception determines reality.
See, this is why you're a clown. Fatuous bloviations and a meek *shrug*, while you explain to me why you don't care what I think, and you talk about me turning over a new leaf as if you weren't posting two weeks ago about punching people in the face- naturally padded with language about how you were "working on" not being that way. Get over yourself, you big fat phoney.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Had to look up "fatuous blovations."
If you started following politics you would see both words far more often. (while you're at it you should look up 'bloviation' too. You're missing a syllable there)
Anyway, you've done this several times: complaining about people using relatively common polysyllabic words because you're inconvenienced into having to look them up. There are several free, easy to use dictionary apps out there. It takes maybe 3 seconds to type the word in (or less because it guesses the word in a drop down menu) and a second or two to read the definition. It's not like you have to actually search for it in the dictionary any more.
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quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: Anyway, you've done this several times: complaining about people using relatively common polysyllabic words because you're inconvenienced into having to look them up.
Aw shucks mable, us reglur folks don't know them fancy city words, isn't that just petunias?
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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A few weeks ago I saw a man degrading a homeless man by lecturing him on how it's his fault for being in the position he's in, how easy it is to get a job at a fast food restaurant, how he should be ashamed of himself, etc. Orincoro strikes me as the kind of guy who would do that.
I'm not comparing SW to a homeless man, just that Orincoro comes off at the kind of guy who takes pleasure in degrading those he deems below him.
Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: A few weeks ago I saw a man degrading a homeless man by lecturing him on how it's his fault for being in the position he's in, how easy it is to get a job at a fast food restaurant, how he should be ashamed of himself, etc. Orincoro strikes me as the kind of guy who would do that.
I'm not comparing SW to a homeless man, just that Orincoro comes off at the kind of guy who takes pleasure in degrading those he deems below him.
I'll let him defend himself here, but that's a pretty strong accusation to make considering the lack of evidence for it. Nor do I think it really applies here - I doubt Orincoro would go out of his way to stress that he and Stone Wolf have the same basic education in how the government works (and indeed are both college educated, intelligent people) if he meant to establish that SW is "beneath him" as you put it. If anything, it was to establish that as his equal (educationally, culturally) ignorance is a pretty shoddy excuse for laziness.
Edit for clarity: To the extent that I would "take sides" on this issue, in 6 years of posting here I don't think Orincoro has ever belittled, degraded, or spoken down to me once. Even when I have said things or expressed opinions contemptible enough to deserve that level of scorn, he's been very respectful and patient with his responses to me - far more so than I have been to him. Stone Wolf, OTOH, has belittled, degraded, or spoken down to me several times in the *past month*. So I would strongly recommend rereading what's been said here in that context and consider if Orincoro is actually taking pleasure in degrading him, or merely calling him out for what he perceives as dishonesty.
posted
i almost lost it at this whole thread but dogbreath's last post is helping me keep my marbles intact
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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You kno the part that bugs me isn't Orin's naked aggression...that I've become numb to. No, it's DogBreath...trying to interject (and stir up shit?) between me and Lyr...and when I call him out on it...nada. Until he interjects again...to point out how rough I was on him. That's exactly what he accused me of.
If the things Orin were saying even made sense...beyond being couched as offensively as possible, I would address them. Somehow I've -explicitly- stated my disregard for other's views? It all reads like...some wack job going off in an internet discussion...wait a sec...
As to me being a big fat phoney...I am big, and fat, but I am trying...to listen and learn and improve myself, and if Rakeesh & Gala are the only ones who can see it than at least that's something. Of course the real important part is I kno.
To Orin: I'm not sure if I have the words to communicate my intent to you. I've been posting here a long while, and I am not interested in retaining the roles we cast for each other over the years. If you can not see that I'm putting forth effort here can you at least attempt to be civil or barring that just leave me be?
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Dogbreath, Orincoro's posts just come off more as bullying than constructive criticism. This:
quote: Why didn't you study government in high school? You should really know how this works.
quote: Your flippant hypocrisy in speaking this way about me is an example of what I find irritating about you. You combine smugness with apathy. It's unflattering.
And you know exactly what response you'll get for talking this way. As with all your recent talk about how much you're "trying," it's all wrapped in aggression and defensiveness that proves you're not really trying. You're lazy, and you are contemptible when you behave this way. I think you probably only do this because you don't know how else to behave. That's understandable, I guess. We're not all able to reconcile who we'd like to be, with who we really are.
Those last three sentences aren't merely about calling him out on what he perceives as dishonesty.
Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005
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(while you're at it you should look up 'bloviation' too. You're missing a syllable there)
