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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » What's Scott Walker up to? (Page 4)

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Author Topic: What's Scott Walker up to?
Dogbreath
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GaalDornick: Absolutely, and you'll notice I'm not defending the insults he's using or the condescension. But my "merely" in this case was used to describe his motive, not his words.

My point is I find it extremely hard to jump from "Orincoro is being kind of a dick with how he's arguing with Stone Wolf" to "Orincoro is the kind of guy who would berate a homeless man for being in his condition." That's a drastic assumption about behavior, morality, and lack of empathy that seems highly incongruous with what I know of the man, and in this situation is completely unwarranted. It also implies a difference in power, station, and social status (the kind that makes a homeless man more or less unable to defend himself in this situation) that simply isn't there.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
A few weeks ago I saw a man degrading a homeless man by lecturing him on how it's his fault for being in the position he's in, how easy it is to get a job at a fast food restaurant, how he should be ashamed of himself, etc. Orincoro strikes me as the kind of guy who would do that.

Hah. No. You've clearly never read anything I've written here very carefully.

And with homeless people, my general play is to get a doggy bag from restaurants and give it to the first person who asks me for money. What else would actually help?


quote:
I've been posting here a long while, and I am not interested in retaining the roles we cast for each other over the years. If you can not see that I'm putting forth effort here can you at least attempt to be civil or barring that just leave me be?
I cannot see you putting forth effort. You remain lazy, arrogant, manipulative, and small minded. Now you have added false modesty to your repertoire. But it's just more of the same.
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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
And with homeless people, my general play is to get a doggy bag from restaurants and give it to the first person who asks me for money. What else would actually help?

For a little while, when I was living in Toronto, a couple nights a week I would make two plates of food in the evening, wrap them in tinfoil, and walk around Church and Gerrard asking people if they wanted to eat supper with me. I didn't specifically target homeless mind you, but they were almost always the only ones willing. As we ate they would always talk to me - sometimes they were crazy and would talk about aliens and government conspiracies and things implanted in their heads, sometimes they would spin a bullshit yarn about how they used to know a ton of famous people and what actresses they had slept with and why they were temporarily down on their luck, sometimes they would just talk. I never asked questions, just listened. It was nice. I was fairly lonely at the time, and most of them were too, so I think we connected pretty well.

Then again, I was a skinny longhaired hippie kid, and had been uncomfortably close to being homeless myself on several occasions. I probably didn't seem imposing or threatening. I haven't done this in many years... I wonder if I would have the same reaction, or get uncomfortable silence, or just get told to **** off. I don't really know. There aren't any homeless people living outside my house (like there were outside the building I lived in) so I feel like it would kind of be forced and awkward anyway.

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Orincoro
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Well, you're bigger hearted than me. I certainly wouldn't waste my breath on lecturing somebody like that, anyway. As if it would help; as if I understand what somebody like that feels and will respond to. I can't imagine it, and I suspect like most people, I prefer to avoid thinking about it, much to our shame, I'm afraid.
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GaalDornick
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
GaalDornick: Absolutely, and you'll notice I'm not defending the insults he's using or the condescension. But my "merely" in this case was used to describe his motive, not his words.

This doesn't make sense. Even though his words, which is the only thing we have to go on here, indicated he was doing more than calling out SW's dishonesty, he actually wasn't because of his motive?

quote:
That's a drastic assumption about behavior, morality, and lack of empathy that seems highly incongruous with what I know of the man, and in this situation is completely unwarranted. It also implies a difference in power, station, and social status (the kind that makes a homeless man more or less unable to defend himself in this situation) that simply isn't there
No. His last three sentences I referenced did show his lack of empathy. He indicated he was aware there are certain things people may not be able to or know how to change about themselves yet disparaged him for it anyways. That's cruel.

I specifically said I wasn't referring to a difference in social status when I clarified I wasn't comparing SW to the homeless man, just Orincoro to the cruelty of the man insulting him instead of empathizing. Regardless, I'd bet good money that Orincoro does see himself as above, so to speak, SW. The difference in power or social status is irrelevant here, it's an anonymous forum, all we have here is our own intellect, knowledge, and writing ability.

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JanitorBlade
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Orincoro: You know that sort of disparaging of a poster is not OK. Please refrain from doing it.
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Rakeesh
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The homeless man bit was absurd, Gaal. You can certainly disapprove as much as you like, and I wouldn't fault you for having that opinion. But the lecturing the homeless man, I'm just imagining that actually happening and it's ridiculous. It's Dickensian, really, that kind of lecturing to the poor in that I could see pre-redemption Scrooge doing it.

I do get where Orincoro's hostility comes from. I remember discussions in the past about current events where Stone_Wolf would insist on having a position and becoming quite hostile pretty quickly of basic challenges were made and incredulity that he hadn't considered them was expressed. That's just my memory, obviously I'm not suggesting Stone_Wolf accept that remembering as gospel.

But fast forward to this discussion, and I can see how Orincoro might be deeply skeptical and unfriendly. As an American, it actually is offensive to me when someone professes the sort of ignorance and apathy that Stone_Wolf did about voting. I didn't go into it, and don't wish to further now, because he was asking questions, and what's the point of taxing someone after the fact like that?

But with a little less good faith-like, say, if someone had been lashed out at in really personal terms, such as Dogbreath; or perhaps remembering political discussions as Orincoro might, I can see why there would be some wariness. I can see how Orincoro might perceive a sort of 'asking for credit' attitude in some of Stone_Wolf's questions.

-------

It's a little frustrating that you still seem invested in this idea that Dogbreath is pursuing you, Stone_Wolf. You were certainly quick to accuse him of deliberately starting shit. And if you disapprove of his interjection, well that's certainly your right, but please try to remember you've chimed in to discussions that you weren't involved in just to criticize before yourself.

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
Well, you're bigger hearted than me. I certainly wouldn't waste my breath on lecturing somebody like that, anyway. As if it would help; as if I understand what somebody like that feels and will respond to. I can't imagine it, and I suspect like most people, I prefer to avoid thinking about it, much to our shame, I'm afraid.

I dunno, after that I volunteered at a homeless shelter in Indiana for a while (one that mostly serviced homeless families/families on the brink of homelessness and were in hunger) and I found the main thing homeless people respond to is being listened to. Having their thoughts, feelings, and ideas validated, feeling like they matter. Food and shelter too, of course. (Salt Lake City came up with the brilliant idea of, you know, giving homeless people homes. And it's worked pretty well so far)

I don't know if I have a big heart, though. There was a lot of emotional trauma in my life from the ages of 16-18, and I'm not sure how intact I was for a while after that. Like for me, I didn't feel the sense of pity or otherness or maybe revulsion that people feel when they say the homeless who lived around my building, I just saw people who were like me: lonely, confused, probably in a place in life I was going to end up sooner or later. (So far I've done pretty well and seem to be in a place where that's now only a remote possibility, but there's reasons I subjected myself to 5 years of indentured servitude beyond the free college)

In any case, I'm not sure if I was entirely motivated by altruism, which is probably a good thing: there's nothing more irritating for a person in need than when the person filling that need wants to *feel good* about themselves for doing so, and just ooze good will and pity and smiles and condescension out their pores. Homeless folks will flock to the crabby old lady serving breakfast who's been doing it for 30 years and doesn't mind telling them off - ignoring a dozen college students out being "humbled" by "experiences" that they'll write self-aggrandizing Facebook posts about later - much like a cat going to the one person who hates cats in a room full of people cooing at it. But humility is an elusive beast, and I think it's best just to be your normal abrasive, imperfect self and stay mostly quiet than to put on a facade. Maybe. I don't know.

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:

It's a little frustrating that you still seem invested in this idea that Dogbreath is pursuing you, Stone_Wolf. You were certainly quick to accuse him of deliberately starting shit. And if you disapprove of his interjection, well that's certainly your right, but please try to remember you've chimed in to discussions that you weren't involved in just to criticize before yourself.

This interjection was to defend Orincoro against what appeared to me to be a rather ridiculous claim. (Not trying to insult you here, Gaal) I'm not entirely sure it makes any sense for Stone_Wolf to disapprove it, though I could see why since it involves someone who is antagonizing him.

The first "interjection" he mentioned, though, was when I was quite involved in the discussion and was trying to make sense of a rather bizarre joke. I'm not sure how he could even interpret that as "trying to start shit" between him and Lyrhawn. I considered asking him, or expressing my lack of aggression, but last time I did that I got threatened, cursed at, called a liar, and had an attack thread started. So you can see why I'm somewhat hesitant to try and persuade him at this point.

Really, it's fairly clear that if I post *anything* here (even a movie review in a completely unrelated thread) he's going to perceive it as deeply antagonistic, and in a manner that he thinks is somehow worse than anything Orincoro said. Which is frustrating, but what can you do? Have another come-to-Jesus moment that gets forgotten after two weeks? I've decided to just ignore it.

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GaalDornick
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The first "interjection" was after Stone_Wolf misinterpreted Lyrhawn's post as a joke suggesting that he should get a vote proportional to his knowledge of politics, hence his "So I should get 1/10 of a vote", instead of Lyrhawn supporting a legitimate form of alternative voting. I'll eat crow if I'm wrong, but it seemed obvious to me after one read.

In your movie review thread, he was clearly trying to poke fun at your past arguments, regardless of whether it was actually funny or not, not legitimately perceiving your post as deeply antagonistic. He labeled it as such.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Can you explain further Samp, I'm afraid I'm not following.

when orin is doing enough to be an asshole people don't need to be inventing ways in which he is an asshole, as though just to help it along. and dogbreath is jumping in to ford the issue and keep things clear about what's actually going on, without defending orin's insults
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:

Really, it's fairly clear that if I post *anything* here (even a movie review in a completely unrelated thread) he's going to perceive it as deeply antagonistic...

I'm sorry you feel that. Honestly, because I did take it too far with the drama/emotions last time and not enough with the evidence. I'll try again, calmer and with more/better explanation. (Oh my god I missed my laptop SO much...I'm never posting anything longer than a paragraph using my phone ever again!!!)

quote:
...and in a manner that he thinks is somehow worse than anything Orincoro said.
Orin and I have more history than Israel and Palestine, going back years. So, yea, I actually -feel- more from your calm comments than his abusive ones, because he as zero credibility {when it comes to myself, and vice versa). You get more ire because Orin is Orin, and that's not about to change. But despite our past difficulties, I still fundamentally care what you think.

Allow me to explain with examples...

quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Seems like you are a little late to the discussion for indignation.

You realize you're posting in a thread he started, right? And that he's been participating in it this entire time?
This isn't about the topic at hand, it's about how I'm addressing another poster. To which I respond...
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Thread drift is real man

I.e. my comment was appropriate as at this point in the discussion I have agreed to vote. So things have moved from where they started...i.e. my stating I thought my voting wouldn't affect anything.

Here is your response.
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
(none)

More to come, must feed wife and self.
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Rakeesh
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Wait, how can you be frustrated by his remark to you if your defense is 'thread drift is real'? Which incidentally I think it's true, but don't you by saying that more or less give up the grounds to point out 'not the place for that, man' to someone else's remarks?

That and Dogbreath was flat out right, it was a little silly to reject since he had been a part of the conversation and in fact he started it, but you were trying to suggest his remarks didn't have a place in it.

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Stone_Wolf_
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(this part is out of order, just as an explanation)
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Because I should only get 1/10 of a vote?

I'm struggling to see how you interpreted his post like this.
Is this DB moderating me or simply confused and seeking further explanation?
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
That was a joke DB...guess I shoulda used a smiley.

This is a bone fide explanation...I thought if you understood the context that I was joking it would be enough to be understood.
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Also...I had a double post....I deleted it...that might have ruined Lyr's joke.

I further explain...double post = a need for proportionate voting.
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
I don't think he was joking...

quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
I'm getting that same feeling.

Calm...discussion...no problem...I'm taking what you are saying seriously...I ask Lyr to explain. After he he explains, I say...
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Thanks...convincing argument.

What would it take, do you think, for our system to adopt this, in what timeframe?

to which you repy...
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
Ha ha that sure is a funny joke Lyrhawn

So at this point, you are either openly mocking me or being sarcastic or something! But I try and not assume, I try and just be like wtf dude?...
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Is that misguided anger? Or whaa?

No, you made a joke about how you only get 1/10th vote or whatever and then when I asked for an explanation you made it out like you were just responding to Lyrhawn's joke that I'm too dense to understand. Lyrhawn said pretty much exactly what I thought he meant, but I'm still just as baffled by your response to his "joke."
Okay...it seems you are taking something I said as a slam..."too dense to understand"...this is not my intent...I'll just clear this up...with a straight forward question if there is a problem that needs taking care of...
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
I'm happy to explain the joke...but I think I hit the nail the head man.

Ranked voting...ranked by what? Knowledge of the issues...result...I get less votes. Self deprecation.

You are badly misreading the dynamic between Lyr & myself who are friends from fantasy football, a Detroit reading charity & Facebook.

Have you appointed yourself my keeper or something?

Your response...
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
{none}

But I don't press you. I don't push the topic...for two reasons...A) About this time Orin started "participating" and B) I owe you a little latitude due to my recent outburst. So I drop it...and next I hear from you...

quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Had to look up "fatuous blovations."

If you started following politics you would see both words far more often. [Smile] (while you're at it you should look up 'bloviation' too. You're missing a syllable there)

Anyway, you've done this several times: complaining about people using relatively common polysyllabic words because you're inconvenienced into having to look them up. There are several free, easy to use dictionary apps out there. It takes maybe 3 seconds to type the word in (or less because it guesses the word in a drop down menu) and a second or two to read the definition. It's not like you have to actually search for it in the dictionary any more.

So...now my acknowledging publicly that I'm ignorant (this is the normal state of mankind, and I am not ashamed to admit it, no human is all knowing) and doing something about it (relevant to this discussion) is interpreted as a complaint...with a grammar correction. My response...still calm...a simple statement of my intent...
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
I wasn't complaining...just noting I didn't kno the words meaning.

Meanwhile Orin is going apeschitte in the background...next you are talking to Gaal about Orin...all reasonable...no problem and then...this

quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
...Edit for clarity: To the extent that I would "take sides" on this issue, in 6 years of posting here I don't think Orincoro has ever belittled, degraded, or spoken down to me once. Even when I have said things or expressed opinions contemptible enough to deserve that level of scorn, he's been very respectful and patient with his responses to me - far more so than I have been to him. Stone Wolf, OTOH, has belittled, degraded, or spoken down to me several times in the *past month*. So I would strongly recommend rereading what's been said here in that context and consider if Orincoro is actually taking pleasure in degrading him, or merely calling him out for what he perceives as dishonesty.

Nevermind that at this point Orin is openly hostile, to the extent of going against the MOS, and I'm calm, not ranting or raving...you call for people to judge us not on our actions, but on -your perceptions of past interactions with us individually-.
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
You kno the part that bugs me isn't Orin's naked aggression...that I've become numb to. No, it's DogBreath...trying to interject (and stir up shit?) between me and Lyr...and when I call him out on it...nada. Until he interjects again...to point out how rough I was on him. That's exactly what he accused me of.

I'm still calm, not railing or getting personal...and then (after talking to others)...you say this about me:
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
Really, it's fairly clear that if I post *anything* here (even a movie review in a completely unrelated thread) he's going to perceive it as deeply antagonistic...

Despite my deliberate calmness, despite letting things go, despite careful labeling and explanation you think its -clear- that I perceive things that are innocent as antagonistic? I don't.

Why am I bothering with all this? I really think you and I can get along, can stop all this grab ass and really contribute to the board. Unlike Orin and myself.

ETA: I really couldn't have done all this on my phone (it lacks the text editing abilities necessary) ...that was what I was referring to in past discussions, not any actual malfunction.

[ March 04, 2015, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Wait, how can you be frustrated by his remark to you if your defense is 'thread drift is real'? Which incidentally I think it's true, but don't you by saying that more or less give up the grounds to point out 'not the place for that, man' to someone else's remarks?

That and Dogbreath was flat out right, it was a little silly to reject since he had been a part of the conversation and in fact he started it, but you were trying to suggest his remarks didn't have a place in it.

Not his remarks, his indignation...about a topic that I had already changed my mind about.

Like throwing an intervention (his thread) but showing up late (thread drift) and then telling the druggie who had just agreed to go to rehab (to vote) that his taking drugs -is bad-. People died to enforce drug laws!

[ March 04, 2015, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]

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Rakeesh
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I can't parse your second paragraph at all.

I'll say this as I would to just about anyone else except my sister to whom I know more and owe more and care more if she is upset: your statement about ignorance being the 'natural state' is technically true but ridiculous in this context. You weren't on a desert island for the past thirty, forty? years with no contact with the outside world until recently, were you? You aren't ignorant about American government because 'ignorance is the natural state of humans'-you're ignorant of it because, your own explanation, you were lazy and apathetic and thought it made no difference anyway.

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Dogbreath
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Apparently me not saying anything at all (because a response wasn't elicited, explicitly or implicitly) is now a sure sign of my aggression.

Stone_Wolf: the unintelligible part of your post aside, you're doing some pretty crazy mental gymnastics here to try and twist my posts here into some sort evidence of hostility. Quite simply: stop reading so much into what I say.

If I say "I'm struggling to see how you interpreted his post like this.", it should be read exactly as such. Trying to find evidence of mockery or moderation (whatever that means in this context) or aggression or "baiting" or what have you in such benign statements is pretty absurd. But what's really nuts is after being insulted and degraded pretty extensively by another poster, your immediate response is to come after me for some perceived slight. Why?

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Stone_Wolf_
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My statement about Elison's comment is similar to the throwing an intervention (for me, about not fulfilling my citizen's obligation) in Elison's living room (his thread) but, Elison shows up late to the intervention (thread drift) and then tells the druggie(me) who had just agreed to go to rehab (to vote) that his taking drugs -is bad- (scolding me for the attitude I just changed and no longer have) . People died to enforce drug laws! (Elison injecting hubris after the fact).

As to the ignorance that is excused by my being human...it was -not knowing- the definitions of detente, fatuous and bloviation that I was referring to.

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
Apparently me not saying anything at all (because a response wasn't elicited, explicitly or implicitly) is now a sure sign of my aggression.

Stone_Wolf: the unintelligible part of your post aside, you're doing some pretty crazy mental gymnastics here to try and twist my posts here into some sort evidence of hostility. Quite simply: stop reading so much into what I say.

If I say "I'm struggling to see how you interpreted his post like this.", it should be read exactly as such. Trying to find evidence of mockery or moderation (whatever that means in this context) or aggression or "baiting" or what have you in such benign statements is pretty absurd. But what's really nuts is after being insulted and degraded pretty extensively by another poster, your immediate response is to come after me for some perceived slight. Why?

Welp, you can't say I didn't try...
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Stone_Wolf_
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I'm just mad at myself really...I chose to give up productive hours of my morning hoping that given sufficient explanation DB and I could truly move forward instead of this veiled rivalry and continual claims of innocence and confusion. Silly me. I'll go fold the laundry I should have been doing instead. [Wall Bash] [Grumble]
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Elison R. Salazar
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Anyone see that Fergusen report by the DoJ?
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Elison R. Salazar
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Ted Cruz as a plan for replacing the ACA!

quote:

- ability to buy insurance across state lines
- coverage extended to age 26 is gone
- ban on annual and lifetime limits is gone
- ban on rescinding coverage is gone
- ban on discriminatory rates is gone
- individual mandate is gone
- employer mandate gone
- pre existing protections are gone
- mandatory minimum standards for insurance is gone
- marketplaces are gone
- subsidies are gone
- Medicaid expansion flexibility is gone

Etc etc.
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TomDavidson
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So it's basically what he proposed back before the ACA, then: the old status quo, minus state protections. *laugh*
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Samprimary
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stuff like that is stuff like Paul Ryan's economic plan — surprisingly worthless utterly unworkable garbage (even for them) just vomited out so as to kind of keep people from saying that they aren't offering an alternative
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Elison R. Salazar
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SA - "How many of you have got wolves in your district? None. None. Not one. We've got 79 congressmen sending you a letter, they haven't got a damn wolf in their whole district. I'd like to introduce them in your district. If I introduced them in your district, you wouldn't have a homeless problem anymore." ~ Rep. Don Young (R-AK).
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Stone_Wolf_
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Missing toddlers and house cats...are a small price to pay to be able to regulate vets with ptsd and addicts...by murdering them. It's a simple cost v benefit calculation. You know what would be even better? Let's gather up all the homeless people, and then set them loose (with the wolves OF COURSE) in a stadium and we can sell seats to help offset all the associated wolf relocation costs! Pays for itself!
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Dogbreath
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Representative John Lewis was on the Daily Show Monday. He spoke for a while on his experiences during the civil rights movement and everything he went through to exercise his right to vote. It's incredibly moving.
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Lyrhawn
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Dogbreath

If you'd like to see more, I'd recommend both Freedom Summer https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fx_5B0MVeqk and Eyes on the Prize https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qFGgoE-uuUw

Both are incredibly moving documentaries, and both go a bit more into what John Lewis and others were doing down there.

Hard not to get a little misty at times. Hard to believe some of these people are real. Hard to believe more people don't know who they are.

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Elison R. Salazar
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Likewise another good one is: Slavery by Another Name

quote:

Slavery by Another Name challenges one of our country’s most cherished assumptions: the belief that slavery ended with Abraham Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation of 1863. The documentary recounts how in the years following the Civil War, insidious new forms of forced labor emerged in the American South, keeping hundreds of thousands of African Americans in bondage, trapping them in a brutal system that would persist until the onset of World War II.

Based on Blackmon’s research, Slavery by Another Name spans eight decades, from 1865 to 1945, revealing the interlocking forces in both the South and the North that enabled this “neoslavery” to begin and persist. Using archival photographs and dramatic re-enactments filmed on location in Alabama and Georgia, it tells the forgotten stories of both victims and perpetrators of neoslavery and includes interviews with their descendants living today. The program also features interviews with Douglas Blackmon and with leading scholars of this period.

In other news an Arkansas politician has apparently been caught rehoming his three adoptive daughters to a child molester after failing to cleanse their souls of Demon's, just like how god intended.
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Samprimary
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/02/18/scott-walker-cut-541-million-in-taxes-last-year-now-his-state-will-miss-a-108-million-debt-payment/

YEA BRO COME GET SOME AUSTERITY SUPPLY SIDE LOVE

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JanitorBlade
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Scott Walker is literally treating government budgets like a credit card. Conservatives were right!
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kmbboots
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http://www.salon.com/2015/04/09/the_secret_history_of_scott_walkers_wisconsin_how_a_once_liberal_state_became_a_political_battlefield/
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JanitorBlade
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I have trouble feeling convinced that this article explains how Wisconsin can be called a liberal state having not just elected but reelected Scott Walker.

It boils down to he tricks people and scares them.

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kmbboots
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That isn't quite what it says. More about how it used to be a liberal state and why it is growing more conservative.
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TomDavidson
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It should also be noted that he tricks people and scares them, and Wisconsin is full of a lot of people who are unfortunately easy to trick and scare.
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kmbboots
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Well yes, but the article lays out some of the reasons why the people of Wisconsin are more susceptible to being tricked and scared.
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kmbboots
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Wisconsin Republicans fast track bill that would effectivly gut workman's compensation

Good thing they are getting rid of the unions or this would never work.

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