posted
Been having problems with the start of this one. I'm just not sure I like it. Is there too much of an info dump? For background, soft fantasy around 1200 words.
Anybody got any ideas?
quote: Jamie’s mother believed in her heart that her taste and fashion sense was developed far beyond her daughter’s. It kept her picking out the teenage girl’s clothes long after she should have stopped. Over the years, Jamie grew good at pretending to like the ugly things her mother picked out in order to get others that she really wanted. And she resented having to do it.
“Adorable!” Her mother said, holding up an atrocious pink sweater with bright yellow flowers on it. “Try this on!” Jamie winced. “Can’t we shop next door?”
“Later, Dear. No shirts with skulls right now. Maybe in October.” She pointed at the changing booth. “Now, Go!”
Jamie yanked the booth curtain shut. In a few minutes, she would re-emerge and say it was too small or something.
[This message has been edited by goatboy (edited July 11, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by goatboy (edited July 11, 2004).]
posted
I think that this is definitely intended to be in Jamie's POV. But the first sentence really sounds like it's in her mom's. You can use a sentence like this once we're firmly entrenched in Jamie's POV, and it would be obvious that this is Jamie's opinion. But coming right at the top like that, we think it's a view right into her mother's heart and soul, i.e., Mom's POV. I'd probably start with "Over the years, Jamie had grown good at . . ."
Start a new paragraph with "Jamie winced."
Aside from that--well, I agree with Phanto, though I may not be quite as extreme as he claims to be. I'd keep reading awhile longer before deciding whether it was worth the effort. But it hasn't caught my attention so far. On the other hand, it doesn't sound like infodump. You've actually interwoven the information with the storytelling quite well.
posted
Or... you could start it the same, but add the following:
Jamie knew that her mother believed in...
Thus, staying in Jamie's POV.
The title is ominous enough for me to want to keep reading... the intro, however, doesn't appeal quite yet.
Additionally, I'd work on this line:
Over the years, Jamie grew good...
And change it as follows: Over the years, Jamie grew to be very good...
While we speak like the former in real life, the latter is more proper for reading/writing... just a preference.
Finally, I get that there's some amount of conflict between mother and kid, but you should really hit us with it right away. Maybe as she's going into the changing room, a few colorful adjectives and emotions would suffice.
Otherwise, I think it's a good start and well-written.
posted
I've gotten in the habit of reading other's posts before responding, but I know this is a bad idea and unfair to the author, who would probably appreciate my fresh perspective more than my skewed one. So I've skimmed just far enough to make sure you haven't reposted tht thing....and here goes.
I think the first sentence is in Jaimie's mother's point of view, not Jaimie's. I think this because you stated as a fact what is in Jaimie's mother heart. Jamie could not know for a fact that she thinks this. I might have believed that you were going for an omniscient POV, but in that case I would have thought that Jamie's mother would have had a name.
I did not feel as though this were an info dump. While nothing extraordinary has happened yet, you have begun with conflict, a teenage girl vs. her mother, which is somethingw e can all relate to. It is a sufficient enough opening that it will keep me reading at least for a time. From this opening, I expect the short story to have something to do with Jamie's relationship with her mother, although if you added another element soon I could except it as long as Jamie's relationship with her mother played some important role. These are just my impressions being reflected back to you so you have some idea what I'm thinking at the end of all of this.
Finally, I had a slight believability problem with this opening. "Over the years, Jamie grew good at pretending to like the ugly things her mother picked out in order to get others that she really wanted." This simply does not seem like a realistic teenage girl attitude. They might smile and nod at granny giving them a puffball sweater so as not ot hurt her feelings, but mother/daughter relationships during those years are entirely different. I'm afraid you're going to have to work hard (probably too hard for a 1200-word short story) to convince me of what kind of personality a teenager would have to have to accept a wardrobe full of crud in order to get the occassional t-shirt she likes. But mostly, you wwere concerned about an info dump, but I didn't see one happen so I'd say no problem there.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited July 12, 2004).]
Definitely trying for Jamie’s POV. I’ve never written a female protagonist before, so this is more or less an exercise to try to learn something.
As everyone has noticed, the first sentence is my Waterloo. It’s the one that is driving me nuts right now. I’ve thrown out and re-written this first paragraph several times. I kind of like RickFisher’s idea of dumping the first sentence in favor of the second. The first could then be reworked and placed later in the text.
Perhaps I could change “grew good” to “grew adept”?
HSO, the fourteenth line does exactly what you suggest. I just can’t figure out how to pack any more info in the first thirteen.
Christine, how about if she took the clothes to stop the arguing, instead of to get something she really liked? Would that be more believable? Maybe I could expand on the lying aspect at that point.
The story is about a girl and her relationship with her mother. The girl tells her mother the usual little white lies that everyone tells, however, due to circumstances, (I’ll save that for later), she is suddenly unable to lie. This particular story has a Pixie in it as an integral part. It also is conflict from the end of the first paragraph to the last word. Conflict with the mother, the Pixie, the store clerk and the security guards. Packing that much in 1200 words is another exercise. Basically, I’m trying to see if I can do it., and what amount of detail is necessary. (Minimal as near as I can tell.)
This plot is basically a "fairy in the jar" variant.
posted
I think it sounds like a very good idea...and this beginning definitely works for the story you describe, though in 1200 words the magical element better be coming very quickly. I read after I wrote my own impressions that some of the others weren't very intrigued by this opening. I can only figure that it's because nothing magical or science fictioney has happened yet. My answer to this is the same as I gave before: You have begun with conflict, given me a good idea of what the story will be about, and according to your summary will fulfill this promise, so if I saw this in a fantasy magazine I'd assume the magic was coming and enjoy the story just fine.
As to the conflict....I think it's great that you're trying to write from a female POV. I try to write from male POV's sometimes and appreciate men telling me where I've gone wrong. Let me see if I can try to describe how a teenage girl might handle shopping with her mother. The first thing is that teenaged girls don't like to shop with their mothers...it's not cool. What if their friends see them out at the mall with their mom, for goodness sake? It would be the end of the world! That's not to say that teenaged girls don't go shopping with their moms, but one thought that will probably be going through their head is to wonder if someone they know will see them there. Nagging or annoyance is also not entirely likely to get a teenager to agree to let her mom buy her awful clothing. What does she do with these clothes when she gets home? Does her mother dress her? If so, then this girl will progbably have issues at school. If not, then wouldn't her mother notice that her daughter never wears any of the clothes she buys? These are just a couple of things that I would be thinking about. The average teenager (and in 1200 words you don' thave much room for anything but the average) will fight about this the whole way.
Which may interfere with your plot, if I'm reading it right.....it seems like you've got her giving in to her mother to appease her when the truth is she hates the clothes and then this honesty spell will kick in and I assume it all comes out all right? Giving your teenager realistic attitudes may require some adjustment to this plotline and some brainstorming.
I just had a thought...now that I've rambled on for a million years. I don't know how old you are or if you've had much experience with teenage girls but I just thought of the old writer's advice, "Write what you know." This might be one of those cases, but it is still a potentially interesting exercise. The trick is that you have to go out at get to know what you're writing....that is, see if you can find out what a real teenaged girl's attitudes might be. I haven't been a teenager for 10 years and I wasn't a very average one at the time, so I'm not a great choice to help you through what might be going through their heads. If I really wanted to get into the teenage girl's psyche I'd talk to my seventeen-year-old sister-in-law and find out what she thinks about things like shopping with her mom.
On the flipside, you could still use the truth magic you have in mind and apply it to a different situation, one you might be more familiar with. It really depends upon what is important to you....what part of the story. Do you want to tell a story about teenage girls and their relationships with their moms? I've written this story, and it is in fact a crutial part of a two novels, one I'm working on now and one that's been put on the back burner, but I've actually been a teenage girl before so have experiences to draw upon.
Just some suggestions. I think I'm rambling at this point, but I was just kind of writing what came to my mind as it came. (This just goes to show you how disjointed my mind is. ) I hope something in my stream-of-consciousness was worthwhile.
I'm a lucky man that I'm married (how often do you hear that in these days?), because my wife helps me write believable (maybe) female characters. The story I'm working on now, Sam (my wife), flat out told me that my feminine dialogue was "right out."
"No. No. No. No. No. A woman wouldn't ever say anything close to that..." she said
posted
Christine! You're much younger than your online persona implies! I haven't been a teenager in almost twenty years and now I'm growing one of my own. It's darned frightening--especially since she's so gorgeous (IMUnbiasedO ).
HSO, I wish I had a wife to explain chick things to me. Unfortunately my husband just doesn't get them either. I'm a tomboy. I understand men and boys better than girls--even though I am one. I hate chick-flicks. Crying embarasses me. I'm competetive and rough-and-tumble and having a great time writing about guys like this. But I often think my female dialogue and mindset is a little off and I actually get a little queasy writing emotional scenes. Gee, maybe your wife wouldn't mind fielding a few passages for me?
About the lines: Agree about the POV. Agree with Christine that I'm not having any trouble being drawn in--sf/f or not. I remember having such troubles with my mother. The trouble between us was that she was much older than I and her tastes were separated by the generation gap rather than simple personal preferences. Some of the things she used to try to do to my hair!!! UGH! On top of everything she was trying to make me a girl.
But I also have some trouble with the give and take--the 'if you let me buy this for you now I'll buy you one of your awful shirts later,' thing. Simply because I feel you're trying to portray the mother as controlling. If Jamie hands any control over to her mother she hands it all. That's just the way control freaks are. So I don't see the mother buying her ANY of the clothes she wants. I see, maybe, Jamie waiting until she could earn enough allowance or baby-sitting money to buy her own. Then she would either flaunt it in front of her mother or try to hide it. Either way your mother's reaction of "No shirts with skulls right now." would be a logical one because no kid can really keep such things hidden from their mothers. YOu could even add conflict by including a war between them--Jamie buys skull shirts and wears them, mother sneaks into her room once in a while and tries to get rid of them (yard sale or donate to the poor), Jamie has to do her own laundry and guard the washer and dryer. You could have a lot of fun with it and add to the tension between them.
[This message has been edited by djvdakota (edited July 12, 2004).]
posted
I think it must depend on the mother/daughter relationship, because I had the one that Jamie has. My mom was great, but she would insist on buying things for me that I would never wear. Very cutesy-girly. I didn't go the skull route, but it was still incredibally maddening. Mom would get mad if I didn't like the things she picked out, so I would 'like' the least offensive of the lot. She also always wanted me to "model" things for her. 'It doesn't fit', just prolonged the agony while she found the same thing in a different size.
I'm curious about the last sentence. Why do you shift tense there? I assume that something is about to happen that will prevent her from doing this.
Is the story at a point where you want feedback on the whole? I owe several people critiques and I'm heading out of town today, but I'd be happy to read it. Might even get all the critiques I owe done on the plane.
quote:HSO, I wish I had a wife to explain chick things to me. Unfortunately my husband just doesn't get them either. I'm a tomboy. I understand men and boys better than girls--even though I am one. I hate chick-flicks. Crying embarasses me. I'm competetive and rough-and-tumble and having a great time writing about guys like this. But I often think my female dialogue and mindset is a little off and I actually get a little queasy writing emotional scenes. Gee, maybe your wife wouldn't mind fielding a few passages for me?
I asked her and she said, no problem, she'd love to help.
Sam is also a tomboy -- or rather, was one until her early 30's (she's sort of a mix of tomboy and not tom). She's very much like you. Still, she's got a firm grasp on all things feminine, whereas I couldn't ever hope to know anything about women... ever. Such is the curse that afflicts all men [and vice versa]
Remind me to post my 15 rules for dating women someday... although this board isn't the place for it, I'd be happy to email it for a laugh or two...
quote:Remind me to post my 15 rules for dating women someday... although this board isn't the place for it, I'd be happy to email it for a laugh or two...
I hereby give you permission to post your rules (in their own topic, of course) because I suspect that they might generate some interesting discussion on characterization.
posted
Send it over! I need all the help I can get! (Ooh. Funny and sad at the same time. Score.)
Anyway...
I got the feeling that dvdjd was joking, a bit, but I think it's hilarious that you actually asked.
Goatboy--I like this snippet, and hope you'll mail me the whole thing, but I don't have anything to contribute, I'm afraid, that hasn't already been said. The one thing I did have, you yourself suggested in your second post.
Gee. Now all this talk of significant others (HSO--I laughed out loud. seriously) has got me all depressed.
posted
I agree with Mary. I can see Jamie rolling her eyes and going back into the dressing room.
I am curious how old she is? I could see a younger teenager being silently resentful but anything over 16 I would agree more with the other comments. I'm also curious about where they are shopping. I could picture them at a high end store with mom dressed like Hilary Clinton and daughter wanting to rebel against the whole socialite persona.
I like the idea of her taking the clothes just to avoid the argument instead of to get what she wants.
I was thrown off a bit by the last sentence. It doesn't feel quite right. Maybe if changed to something like:
"Jamie yanked the change-room curtain shut and immeadiatly began devising ways to get out of buying the hideous thing."
When you want the full story critqued, I'll take a look.
posted
Thanks HSO. And thanks to your lovely wife. I love the name Sam for a woman, by the way.
I'm currently in editing for my WIP and I'm sure I'll be coming across some of those segments soon.
As for me, I am fast approaching forty and hopelessly unfeminine. My poor hubby. If he twists my arm I'll wear makeup. My mother thinks I dress "too casual" so for a niece's wedding she slipped me some cash to go buy a "nice dress." I had to take a friend to help me out.
OO! Yea. Post those fifteen rules. I love that stuff.
quote: I am curious how old she is? I could see a younger teenager being silently resentful but anything over 16 I would agree more with the other comments. I'm also curious about where they are shopping. I could picture them at a high end store with mom dressed like Hilary Clinton and daughter wanting to rebel against the whole socialite persona.
I’m picturing fourteen. The location is a Mall shop. One of those that carry all the, (as my wife describes it) , “little girl” stuff. Your pretty close with the HC comparison. I’m working on one of the red hat ladies, if you’ve ever seen them. Well dressed, big red hat, impeccable manners. The daughter I see as almost a Goth. This is something that Mom doesn’t like. The store clerk is more the aging hippy type.
It’s one of the problems of working in this short space. I have virtually no room to describe the people and the events. Every word has to count, and with the pixie encounter, the sales clerk, the security guards, the controlling mother and the final wrap up, it’s tight.
MaryRobinette wrote
quote: I'm curious about the last sentence. Why do you shift tense there? I assume that something is about to happen that will prevent her from doing this.
Correct assumption. The last sentence is a problem, I think I’m trying to pack too much into this paragraph.
Unfortunately, I didn’t get back here in time to email anything yesterday. Went you get back, I’ll send it on.
djvdakota wrote:
quote: Simply because I feel you're trying to portray the mother as controlling. If Jamie hands any control over to her mother she hands it all. That's just the way control freaks are. So I don't see the mother buying her ANY of the clothes she wants. I see, maybe, Jamie waiting until she could earn enough allowance or baby-sitting money to buy her own.
Originally I had a line explaining how the mother chose clothes that SHE liked, and that they would wind up donated to the Salvation Army unworn. I removed it because I felt it made no sense in the context. (And it took up too much space).
Christine wrote:
quote: so if I saw this in a fantasy magazine I'd assume the magic was coming and enjoy the story just fine.
Actually, there’s no magic element beyond the existence of the Pixie. Originally I had the child being devoured by the cute little creature. Then I decided that’s much too crude, since Jamie’s mom is perfectly capable of devouring her daughter– with a little help.
Let me work on it a few more days and then I’ll send it out guys.
First time posting here. I wanted to look through all the threads before I put anything up, but I want to say something about the whole teenage girl/mother thing.
I agree with the reviews so far. I think you need to add a lot more grumbling on Jamie's part and cut out the first two sentences entirely. The third sentence should be turned into its opposite in my opinion. It goes better with Jamie's clothes choice. I've never known a passive girl who wore a skull on her shirt.
Also, I've never known a woman who would say this: <quote>"No shirts with skulls right now. Maybe in October."</quote>
Unless, she's being sarcastic? Hadn't thought of that til now.
Anyway, if you want to go with the "she never says what she feels" theme, then you shouldn't have Jamie say anything at all against the clothes her mother picks. You also need to make Jamie's mom extremely overbearing and ready to pull a guilt trip at a moment's notice.
That's been my personal experience. The girls who become good at going along say <b>nothing</b> that shows even a hint of disagreement with their mother. They choose their battles carefully. They need to be willing to put up with the emotional manipulation and it's much easier to just nod and smile and mentally search for a way to leave home before eighteen (which is why they tend to be ambivalent about school and socialization...why worry if you're not going to be there much longer?).
I think its possible to put something like that in a short story, but not in 1200 words.
Anyway, that's my opinion. I'll go back to the shadows now.
I appreciate you posting a response to someone else's fragment before posting your own. I've secretly gotten in the habit of not responding to posts of new members until they've done so. Oops, I guess the secret's out.
posted
Thanks. I'm still not sure what the rules are on this board (beyond the basics). Posted a fragment just in case I was being rude. I'm glad I didn't make a major goof.
Posts: 836 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
No Keely, you're fine. I think I might have worked a way around the problem. Did this kill it?:
Unable to cope with his fourteen year old daughter, Jamie's Father sent her to live with her mother: ‘so you can grow up a lady.’ Like a bad dream she couldn’t shake, her Mother hated everything about her; hair, clothes, friends, opinions. They fought continuously until Jamie simply gave in, or seemed to.
“Adorable!” Jamie’s mother said, admiring an atrocious pink sweater covered with bright yellow flowers. “Try this on!”
Jamie winced. “Can’t we shop next door?”
“No shirts with skulls. I’m not running a reformatory.” She pointed an impeccably manicured finger at the changing booth. “Now, Go!”
Jamie yanked the booth curtain shut and threw the pink monstrosity at the bench. Frowning into the mirror she mimed the older woman. “Adorable!” she mocked silently “No shirts with skulls... Dress like a girl!”
She stopped. Had the sweater moved– just the tiniest bit?
posted
That's a lot better, imo. Though this line gives me pause:
“No shirts with skulls. I’m not running a reformatory.”
Say it aloud once or twice and see what you think. I mean it sounds forced... not real. Like something is missing from the dialogue. I can't put my finger on it.
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited July 13, 2004).]
posted
I like this too. However, how about moving the first paragraph down a bit so it reads as follows:
quote:“Adorable!” Jamie’s mother said, admiring an atrocious pink sweater covered with bright yellow flowers. “Try this on!”
Jamie winced. “Can’t we shop next door?”
“No shirts with skulls. I’m not running a reformatory.” She pointed an impeccably manicured finger at the changing booth. “Now, Go!”
Unable to cope with his fourteen year old daughter, Jamie's Father had sent her to live with her mother: ‘so you can grow up a lady.’ Like a bad dream she couldn’t shake, her Mother hated everything about her; hair, clothes, friends, opinions. They fought continuously until Jamie simply gave in, or seemed to.
Jamie yanked the booth curtain shut and threw the pink monstrosity at the bench. Frowning into the mirror she mimed the older woman. “Adorable!” she mocked silently “No shirts with skulls... Dress like a girl!”
She stopped. Had the sweater moved– just the tiniest bit?
I also agree with HSO, the "reformatory" line doesn't sound right.
Maybe she could say something about not wasting her hard earn money on that rubbish. Or how she won't have her daughter running around looking like a houligan.
[This message has been edited by Robyn_Hood (edited July 13, 2004).]
quote: how about moving the first paragraph down a bit so it reads as follows:
I thought of that, only moving it still one paragraph farther down. It didn’t work so well there, but I do kind of like it one paragraph up.
I’m still afraid the last line of that paragraph will still need to be changed. I will probably also change the reformatory line to something more akin to “except on Halloween” Or “it’s not Halloween.”
posted
I vote no for moving the paragraph, if you care.
I honestly think the issue is the wording, not the placement. It's still not in Jaimie's POV, wherever you put it.
I hesitate to do this...but I'm going to break a rule and suggest a rewrite:
When Jaimie's father sent her to to stay with her mother, he told her it was, "so you can grow up like a lady," but Jaimie knew the truth. Her father had been unable to cope with...(might be a good idea to be more specific about what Jaimie's doing that is difficult to cope with)
posted
Now I don't remember actually reading any hard and fast rule about not making rewrite suggestions. But when someone is struggling such things are appreciated and helpful--at least to me. I think you did just the right thing, Christine. And I think you hit that first paragraph just right.
(My mind is drawing a blank. There's some movie or book--Just got it! It's from Muppet Classic Theater. Gonzo, for one segment, dresses up as a satir and Miss Piggy (or maybe it was Rizzo the Rat) calles him 'goatboy' in a most deprecating tone. Hillarious! I grin every time I read your name on these posts.)
posted
Quite acceptable, Christine. All suggestions are welcome. I might not take all of them, but I will at least listen and see if it fits.
Posts: 497 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Unfortunately my husband just doesn't get them either. I'm a tomboy. I understand men and boys better than girls--even though I am one. I hate chick-flicks. Crying embarasses me. I'm competetive and rough-and-tumble and having a great time writing about guys like this. But I often think my female dialogue and mindset is a little off and I actually get a little queasy writing emotional scenes. Gee, maybe your wife wouldn't mind fielding a few passages for me?
Such is the curse that afflicts all men [and vice versa]
