posted
Darkened pupils darken dreams, the minds of men are fragile things.
I see her When the exhaustion overtakes me, When the lines blur and each saccadic eye movement Flashes her image lucidly into my mind.
I see her In the reflections of pictures, Pictures of people, Memories that don't mean much, other than everything I once loved.
She is my dream, she is my nightmare. No, she is everything, my only dream. She is a nightmare, but not mine She has chosen me.
I take stock of my inventory, my equipment for my journey.
So, this is the original how it is actually formatted
____________________________
Attempt 2: The problems he has growing up which lead to Dom`e
My lil sis and I were walking past the breathtaking foliage on our way home from school. Of course we were too young to care, just gleefully running through a mid-day sunset of leaves. Rounding the street to our house, the nervousness began to build.
I opened the door and I could smell the yucky toxic tonic smell. Alcohol. Mom had been drinking again. It's getting worse each day, now that school has started. She's yelling. We just keep our mouths shut and our heads down. She'll stop eventually, she always does.
That's when the glass flew past my head, "lucky", I thought until I heard it shatter and my sister whimper. There were blood and cuts on her face. I ran, grabbed my BMX and peddled. I pushed my rage, till my whole body burned, till I was numb. _____________________________________________________________
I could start with this, doesn't really give much of the plot. Some of the character's problems and why Dom`e chooses him. He gets into a bike wreck shortly after (cracks his skull) and that's when he first meet's Dom`e. That's another possible start. Is right at the moment when he first meets her.
This would all be past tense, and then the Chapter opens on him grown up. With his drug abuse and him chasing Dom`e.
_______________________________________________________ Attempt 3: First encounter with Dom`e
My skull is cracked open, terrifying feeling ridges and gaps where there shouldn't be, as I succumb to the darkness I look at all the blood on my hands. Black feathery tendrils circle my vision. The darkness is warm. No, wait. I'm being held in a lap, soft skin of a flower petal, she's running her fingers through my hair. Groggily I open my eyes. Surreal beauty. She smiles at me, a razor wire smile. A smile that I find oddly comforting. Unspoken knowledge that they won't ever hurt me again.
She kisses me gently on my forehead as her hand reaches back to the crack in my skull. She gently kisses away my tears from my cheeks and finally her lips brush mine and sink in for the most passionate kiss I'll ever have. She takes this opportunity to slip her finger past my skull and into my brain. Euphoric
[This message has been edited by revraidon (edited November 27, 2009).]
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited November 28, 2009).]
posted
I'm posting this to see what the reaction is from total strangers and if any of you would like to read more. Almost finished with the first chapter. Let me know. If the interest is sincere it means a lot to me. I am a beginning author who has a long way to go. ____________________________________________
This short story is a psychological thriller horror. The piece centers around Dom`e, a nightmare, so it is written in a dreamlike pattern. Flowing from poetry, to disjointed thought, to monologue and insight.
The character's obsession with Dom`e follows a downward spiral, losing grip on reality, the lines blur and he finds himself trapped between our world and being gently caught in the spider web of nightmare dreams.
I knew this would be unlike anything I've done before, when after writing the first couple pages Dom`e woke me up at 6am with more to tell. Probably should have wrote down what she said instead of turning over and trying to get back to sleep. I'm sure I pissed her off, but I sensed something in her, powerful, yet desperate. She needed her story told.
I don't like horror. Overactive imagination, hated them as a child. Yet, here I am writing what could only be classified as a short story horror. They say the best leaders are the ones that don't want to lead. Maybe I can delude myself into thinking the best writers are the ones that are terrified of what their pen will make. Each scene eats a hole in my mind before finally born to life in text.
Thank you for reading my work.
[This message has been edited by revraidon (edited October 27, 2009).]
1. Starting a story with the character waking is generally considered a cliche. Often beginner writers use this as a start point as it allows them a place to immerse themselves in the POV. Check out the Turkey City Lexicon for more cliches.
2. You shouldn't need to explain your intro as you have done in your second post--it should live or die on its own merits.
3. Disjointed thoughts are difficult to engage with so early in a story.
4. Your list of medications and drugs reads like a list--lists that are that long are uninteresting...they don't further the story, don't engage me with character, don't define conflict, don't add to setting. You could have listed three drugs. Also you should avoid saying OTC--which is an acronym that most people will not know--you might as well say 'over-the-counter', which people will. You will push people out of the story using terms they don't understand. I am a nurse (in drug addiction) so commonly use terms like that.
5. Its not really an intro...more like a poem. It's a little overdone in places. It also appears to end--I have no further questions, as the way I read it you probably died from an overdose (...slip away from the world).
I think your prose has promise.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited October 27, 2009).]
1. Starting a story with the character waking is generally considered a cliche.
Hmm, no the character is completely awake. In fact I'd place it around early evening. He is a bit "tired" but it's more her edging into his consciousness. 2. You shouldn't need to explain your intro as you have done in your second post--it should live or die on its own merits.
I do believe in the value of things holding their own merit. Still, this is what the moderators say:
quote:1--describe your story: what genre it is, how long it is, how much of it you have written, whether it's complete or not, what draft it is, how long you've been working on it, and so on
2--post the first 13 lines of your manuscript (which means 13 lines of 12-point courier font)
3. Disjointed thoughts are difficult to engage with so early in a story.
Yes. 4. Your list of medications and drugs reads like a list--lists that are that long are uninteresting...they don't further the story, don't engage me with character, don't define conflict, don't add to setting. You could have listed three drugs. Also you should avoid saying OTC--which is an acronym that most people will not know--you might as well say 'over-the-counter', which people will. You will push people out of the story using terms they don't understand. I am a nurse (in drug addiction) so commonly use terms like that.
Hmm, I'll have to think long and hard about what you said. I've had a couple people compliment it. One liking the similarities to the beginning of Fear and Loathing in Los Vegas. I did not read the book but maybe subconsciously I picked it up. It was meant to demonstrate the breadth of his palette and his desperation. 5. Its not really an intro...more like a poem. It's a little overdone in places. It also appears to end--I have no further questions, as the way I read it you probably died from an overdose (...slip away from the world).
Well, it is a prelude. Between the drugs and the dreams, this is the feel I want it to have.
That is very close to the question you should have. He gets closer to death each time he chases her. Such is opiates and mixing downers. It is a near death experience, the question is what does he find and does he come to.
[This message has been edited by revraidon (edited October 27, 2009).]
posted
@skadder. Dammit I don't take criticism well. Sorry for argueing so much. Thank you for reading my work. I can tell you are a good writer.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
If that's what the moderator says then you can do that. However ultimately a short story won't have the author there to explain things.
I stick by what I said--a should live or die by its own merits. If this was a fragment mid-story, well, that would be different.
This a first chapter? Sounds like you have posted in the wrong section and should have posted in the NOVELS section.
quote:The piece centers around Dom`e, a nightmare, so it is written in a dreamlike pattern...
and
Flowing from poetry, to disjointed thought, to monologue and insight.
This is why--plus the lack of milieu--that I thought you trying for a sense of waking.
What this is, in effect, is exposition about the character's [name?] relationship with Dome. You intro doesn't put me in any milieu...where is all this happening? In his bedroom, bathroom?
quote:5. Its not really an intro...more like a poem. It's a little overdone in places. It also appears to end--I have no further questions, as the way I read it you probably died from an overdose (...slip away from the world).
Well, it is a prelude. Between the drugs and the dreams, this is the feel I want it to have.
That is very close to the question you should have. He gets closer to death each time he chases her. Such is opiates and mixing downers. It is a near death experience, the question is what does he find and does he come to.
The point was I don't have any questions....you haven't hooked me. The story appears to end. Besides, if I was an editor I would not read further as I am not engaged in terms of plot; milieu; conflict; character.
You'd be better off starting with your character scoring some drugs (desperate to score) in a real place...then we can get to know your character before he slips into a drug haze.
quote:Hmm, I'll have to think long and hard about what you said. I've had a couple people compliment it. One liking the similarities to the beginning of Fear and Loathing in Los Vegas.
You mentioned want reactions from 'total strangers'. Does this mean your comments come from family and friends?
Your prose is good, I juust think you have started your story in the wrong place under the misconception that poetic descriptions will make up for lack of setting and clarity of story. Murkiness isn't a hook.
posted
No problem...I don't take it well either. In the end it is just my opinion. You're welocme to ignore me or prove me wrong.
When someone crits you harshly (which I didn't really) its an idea to try what they suggest (especially if it is only 13 lines) and see if it flies better.
After all why come here? Unless you are willing to try other's ideas, you won't grow.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited October 27, 2009).]
quote:If that's what the moderator says then you can do that. However ultimately a short story won't have the author there to explain things.
Glad I got your permission to do what the mods listed in the read here first section. If it makes you feel better, I am failing their advice about getting sucked into arguments. I don't entirely agree with your argument, a lot of times there is an inside flap or a note by the author. I still think good writing should stand on its own. So we're in agreement there.
quote: This a first chapter? Sounds like you have posted in the wrong section and should have posted in the NOVELS section.
Yeah, I didn't know where to put it. It's a novella. Long short story, we'll see.
quote: that I thought you trying for a sense of waking.
I'm trying to give a sense for his obsession. The problems drug addiction is starting to cause. He's hitting bottom and all he has left is what he obsesses over and what he fears.
quote: What this is, in effect, is exposition about the character's [name?] relationship with Dome. You intro doesn't put me in any milieu...where is all this happening? In his bedroom, bathroom?
Character goes nameless through the book. Hmm, I can understand you need for location. Not sure how to do the trade off, with 13 lines, conveying the obsession, the madness all of that seemed more important. You find out eventually, couple pages. I wanted people to connect to the feelings rather than the objects.
quote: You'd be better off starting with your character scoring some drugs (desperate to score) in a real place...then we can get to know your character before he slips into a drug haze.
I appreciate the suggestion, maybe a different angle. Some interaction with Dom`e in the real world perhaps? Drugs aren't a big piece, a means to an end. A part of the spiral caused by his obcession.
quote: You mentioned want reactions from 'total strangers'. Does this mean your comments come from family and friends?
Heh, a little caustic? Though I have to give you a nod to your perception. Relating it to Hunter S was done by two of my friends. Being impressed by my style and flow has been given to me by people I don't really know, on Facebook.
quote: Your prose is good, I juust think you have started your story in the wrong place under the misconception that poetic descriptions will make up for lack of setting and clarity of story. Murkiness isn't a hook.
I'll take this advice seriously. Thank you.
[This message has been edited by revraidon (edited October 27, 2009).]
posted
You're over the 13 line limit - just be aware that when the mod comes along you'll be truncated (the line "half a kilo left" is where I think the 13 lines ends.)
It takes a while to get the hang of the 13 line limit. One thing Kathleen, the moderator, points out is that without extra spaces between lines, 13 lines in courier font is exactly what fits into this entry window when you're composing a post.
A few thoughts for you on feedback: As with all feedback, take anything I say with a grain of salt. Use what works, leave the rest. You may not agree with it, that's fine. I receive feedback on my work that I don't agree with, though often when I hear something more than once it makes me rethink the direction I'm heading.
I am aware that some of what I have opinions about is just personal opinion. I read slush for Flash Fiction Online, so I read a few dozen short stories a month, often more. My feedback will be honest and objective from my experience.
It is great that you have received positive feedback from general folks. My friends and family are always very complimentary about my work and for that I'm grateful. I need a steady diet of good feedback to keep my motivation up. They help me find typos and inconsistencies, too. But they don't help me get to be a better writer.
My writer friends beat up on my work and it can be painful at times, but oh my gosh am I a better writer today than I was 3 years ago when I started this whole "be serious about writing" thing. One of my writer friends told me this week "this is not my favorite story of yours..." - ouch! But thank goodness! I have a much better idea of what I need to work on now.
Enough from me on the "benefits of feedback and Hatrack and all that" speech, sorry!
Specific feedback on your story (which I'll consider ending at "half a kilo left." since I believe that's where your story will be truncated by the moderator.)
Personal nitpick: name your characters. I know there are people who disagree with me, but this is just one of those things that bugs me and causes me to reject works I read in the slush pile. I don't have an issue with an unnamed first person character, because to name him/her can be awkward "Hi, Bob," Joe said to me. blech. But the "her" - she has a name, the POV narrator/main character KNOWS her name since she's such an obsession for him, so just help us readers out a bit and let us know what he calls her. Because I know he doesn't use an unspecific gender pronoun when he's obsessing about her.
Nitpick: (check with someone who actually knows poetry, I don't) - doesn't the first word in each line get capitalized in poetry? "The minds of men are fragile things." Even though it's not a sentence of it's own right.
I don't know what the word saccadic means. I imagine it's like staccato, or something along those lines. If it means something completely different, you might consider using another word, since at least for this reader the meaning was not clear. (it's perfectly fine to use words that readers may not be familiar with, just be aware if readers are getting the wrong impression from the words/context cues, then you may wish to change to something more specific/more well-known.)
This line: "Memories don't mean that much, other than everything I once loved." Is a bit melodramatic. I suggest rewording. It's also a bit of sarcasm, no? Since the two ideas are opposed (memories don't mean much, other than EVERYTHING.) Just stuck out to me.
Up until the line that ends "she has chosen me." I'm getting a very vague feeling, I am sensing the obsession. Then there's a pretty dramatic shift to action on the part of the character.
My personal preference is for strong character action, so I tend to prefer this next style, but I wasn't sure if you were aware how strong the contrast was. It almost needs a separator - section break.
Agree with previous poster, drug list is too long. You could truncate and say something to the effect of, "and all the things you'd expect of a ... whatever it is this guy is - drug addict, time traveler, zombie, evil robot monkey." It would give you a chance to give a message to the reader about what KIND of story you're telling and what KIND of person is the main character.
I would say that's the primary thing missing from this passage. SO far we have some lovely language and well-crafted sentences, but I can't tell where we're going, what's going to happen, or even what kind of story this is (other than your notes which I deliberately only lightly skimmed.)
The opening of a story is a chance for the author to connect with the reader. It's a contract. The author shows the reader that he/she knows how to tell a good story, sets up a character in a setting, gives the reader some kind of promise about what's to come. Specifically for speculative fiction, which is the majority of what people write here on Hatrack - fantasy, sci-fi, horror, and all the flavors in between, it's even more important to set that expectation with the reader right away. We need to know what kind of story we're reading, who's in it, and why we should care.
The guy's obsession makes me mildly interested...but only mildly. I am NOT a horror reader, so there are elements of the horror genre that I am not the right person to provide feedback around but I think you should aim to make a better connection with the reader around this character. What's endearing about him? Why should we care? Because he's painfully obsessed with this woman? Because he's an addict? Give us a reason to care (these are hypothetical questions, by the way, you don't need to answer them at all, but if you choose to try to revise based on my feedback, you may wish to consider these questions as you consider revisions.)
You've got some interesting elements here, but I think you can go further to make us connect better with the character before he's off in a stupor (which is my guess of where he's headed as he goes to "slip away from this world.")
Good luck with this piece, and welcome to Hatrack. Hope we don't frighten you off too quickly.
posted
I seem to be getting embroiled into an argument, when I was really just trying to help.
-I wasn't giving you permission, merely accepting that your argument had validity. I just dissagree with it...
-A nameless character for the whole of the book(?)? Think you can pull that off? I couldn't. Most people couldn't.
-Doing the trade off between character, milieu , conflict etc. is to do with the skill of the writer.
-I wasn't being caustic--it was a question. It is quite common for new writers to ask family and friends for opinions. It is unusual for family and friends to be objective and truthful or to provide useful advice. I think it was a valid question considering your statement.
-One of the problems of arguing with critters and taking offence is that are unlikely to crit your stuff again. If someone said my stuff was boring, it is a comment on that piece of prose, not on me. I can correct the prose, and am grateful they took the time to read it and comment on it.
posted
Yeah, I have to say this is pretty brutal. Part of me wanted to finish writing a couple of books before coming here. That might still be the case since just writing is so important and if I get caught up second guessing myself I know I'll shut down psychologically. I know I have great segments, it's going to take tons of work to actually become an author.
quote: It takes a while to get the hang of the 13 line limit.
I'll get it, I tried the MS Word trick but apparently it was wrong.
quote: My feedback will be honest and objective from my experience.
Thank you, I can genuinely say I appreciate that.
quote: It is great that you have received positive feedback from general folks. My friends and family are always very complimentary about my work and for that I'm grateful. I need a steady diet of good feedback to keep my motivation up. They help me find typos and inconsistencies, too. But they don't help me get to be a better writer.
My writer friends beat up on my work and it can be painful at times, but oh my gosh am I a better writer today than I was 3 years ago when I started this whole "be serious about writing" thing. One of my writer friends told me this week "this is not my favorite story of yours..." - ouch! But thank goodness! I have a much better idea of what I need to work on now.
Thanks for relating. I'm really trying to maintain the focus of doing this for myself. It's an art and you might have some natural ability but it also takes a ton of practice.
quote: Personal nitpick: name your characters. I know there are people who disagree with me, but this is just one of those things that bugs me and causes me to reject works I read in the slush pile. I don't have an issue with an unnamed first person character, because to name him/her can be awkward "Hi, Bob," Joe said to me. blech. But the "her" - she has a name, the POV narrator/main character KNOWS her name since she's such an obsession for him, so just help us readers out a bit and let us know what he calls her. Because I know he doesn't use an unspecific gender pronoun when he's obsessing about her.
Main character will never be named, as you guessed. All other characters are. For whatever reason I wanted Dom`e to be pulled by inference. At least for a little while. Madness, confusion, those are things I wanted to push through. He does say her name, just not right away. I'll write your critique down and ask my group. See how they react. Thank you.
quote: Nitpick: (check with someone who actually knows poetry, I don't) - doesn't the first word in each line get capitalized in poetry? "The minds of men are fragile things." Even though it's not a sentence of it's own right. [\quote]
Dammit you're right and I switched it for publishing it here. Thought I was wrong.
[quote] I don't know what the word saccadic means. I imagine it's like staccato, or something along those lines.
It's close enough. I refuse to use more complicated words when simpler ones will suffice. Unfortunately, saccade was exactly what I was looking for. Every time the eye moves we are temporarily blind. So, for about 10% of our waking day we are in complete darkness. This is when I wanted her image to appear.
quote: This line: "Memories don't mean that much, other than everything I once loved." Is a bit melodramatic. I suggest rewording. It's also a bit of sarcasm, no? Since the two ideas are opposed (memories don't mean much, other than EVERYTHING.) Just stuck out to me.
I'll see what I can do. Between the drugs and obsession he is losing touch with reality. Gaps are beginning to tear and he is beginning to feel this deep feeling of disconnect. So, it is sarcastic, but a genuine feeling. Perhaps worded to melodramatic.
quote: My personal preference is for strong character action, so I tend to prefer this next style, but I wasn't sure if you were aware how strong the contrast was. It almost needs a separator - section break.
I can see that. Partly I think drugs are empowering to people. Make them take actions they wouldn't normally take.
quote: Agree with previous poster, drug list is too long. You could truncate and say something to the effect of, "and all the things you'd expect of a ... whatever it is this guy is - drug addict, time traveler, zombie, evil robot monkey." It would give you a chance to give a message to the reader about what KIND of story you're telling and what KIND of person is the main character.
That sucks, 'cause several people like it. One thing is there is no typical drug user who uses those drugs. Each was selected carefully for how it influenced dreams. GABBA and it's agonist. Serotonin with an SSRI. Histamine blockers and Opiates. Each are separate, stackable yet not from the same class. It shows the care he takes in painting her chemical symbol into his mind, with the love of an artist.
Fear and Loathing in Los Vegas goes into a longer laundry list. I felt mine was even more justified but I will take your opinion seriously.
quote: I would say that's the primary thing missing from this passage. SO far we have some lovely language and well-crafted sentences, but I can't tell where we're going, what's going to happen, or even what kind of story this is (other than your notes which I deliberately only lightly skimmed.)
Yeah, it's hard because things unravel very fast. This prelude is only two pages before the chapter starts. In some ways this is very good. In others I feel we lost our attention span. I just wanted enough of a hook to be confused and uncomfortable enough to finish the remaining page.
quote: You've got some interesting elements here, but I think you can go further to make us connect better with the character before he's off in a stupor (which is my guess of where he's headed as he goes to "slip away from this world.")
Yeah, you know what... I think I can. I was kind of thinking how Poe sometimes started off pretty mad, but maybe it's not the same level and I need something different. Thank you!
quote: I seem to be getting embroiled into an argument, when I was really just trying to help.
-I wasn't giving you permission, merely accepting that your argument had validity. I just dissagree with it...
Yeah man that's the last thing I want. I actually agreed with you both times that a work should stand on it's own. C'mmon I was obviously joking. I even stated how I wasn't following a main rule not to get into heated arguments.
quote: -A nameless character for the whole of the book(?)? Think you can pull that off? I couldn't. Most people couldn't.
I'm comfortable with it. Poe did it a lot. In fact a lot of short story writers do. Fight Club did. I'm confident it will work. There aren't too many human interactions, a lot of his horrors etc. All the other people do have names.
quote: I wasn't being caustic.
Well thanks, sorry I took it that way.
quote: One of the problems of arguing with critters and taking offence is that are unlikely to crit your stuff again.
I think it depends on the person. Some are more likely.
You're kind of blunt. The criticizer I got after you was more gentle. I need that now. This is very hard for me, I've never written in my life and now I'm trying this. Not easy. I might not be ready for this board, and that's ok. Otherwise I'm just going to have to learn to thicken my skin. Because I really do want to become good. I also want to have my own style. There are bad things I need to fix. Absolutely.
I still very much appreciate your time. Sorry for becoming defensive. I really tried not to be, or at least use humor.
quote: One of the problems of arguing with critters and taking offence is that are unlikely to crit your stuff again.
I think it depends on the person. Some are more likely.
Well, I've seen it happen a few times.
I'm blunt? Good--I try to be. It's a trait that can help you, because I give you my opinion--which is what you sought when you posted. What you do with my opinion is up to you--depends if you value it. However, it isn't a watered down opinion, tailored to suit your emotional state. How would you untangle anything truly useful from that?
BTW, we aren't criticizers--we are critiquers; a whole different ball-game.
Your prose says you are ready for this board; as I said (a few times), it's good. Thicken your skin, don't take it personally, and you'll learn quicker.
I've seen a few good writers who can't take the comments they recieve and they seem to remain at the same level.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited October 27, 2009).]
quote:You're kind of blunt. The criticizer I got after you was more gentle.
This is one of many services we here at Hatrack offer. Blunt, gentle, abrasive, complimentary - you can find it all here!
My recommendation (completely un-asked-for, but I've been hanging around here a while and feel compelled to offer it): Let it all sit for a while, think about your work, think about what you're trying to do. Do a rewrite later this week or in a week or two.
I think, in time, you may realize that sometimes the blunt critiquers are among the most valuable. One of my most valued "writing buddies" is someone who others have often felt is too blunt and caustic. His feedback is direct and specific, I have no trouble developing an action plan after receiving his feedback. Truth be told, sometimes I ignore pieces of it. That's perfectly fine. I'm the writer, it's *my* work, however I've grown to really value the bluntness of the writers here in the F&F forums. People here all contribute tons of time and mental resources. Even if we don't agree, we can appreciate the time/effort and move on.
Skadder's definitely right about one thing. Be cautious about addressing every point raised in a critique. The best way to handle challenging critiques is to submit an edited version of your work, either addressing the feedback or refining your vision so that your readers get more of it. And then (if not already done,) finish your story, submit it to markets until it sells, and brag about it on the bragging forum. Not all of us are trolling the F&F looking for more discussion (general discussions happen in the general discussion area, surprisingly!) - I happen to be procrastinating something so you're getting an excess of my time today. Crud, I owe someone a critique...I shouldn't be procrastinating THAT. Best of luck.
posted
Yeah, I got a bit defensive. Got sucked into feeling like I have something to prove. I'm sorry, even though I read the read this before you post about getting argumentative, I let it get the best of me. It won't happen again.
Thanks again for your help. I promised my group an extended writing for Halloween. After than, I'll try to come back post some revisions and take some abuse.
Thank you.
[This message has been edited by revraidon (edited October 27, 2009).]
posted
There are a couple of questions that I'd like some help on, if any of you have some insight, please share. Otherwise I'll work on them the next couple of weeks.
I think I'd like to open with the uncomfortable falling into madness feel. An author like Poe can use it as a hook, somehow I'm failing. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Second question is my laundry list of drugs. I'm curious as to how it works so well for Hunter S and is not resonating with what I write. I felt it more appropriate in some ways, but a 2/2 response on here I cannot ignore.
If you have insight I'd love to hear it, otherwise if I have to change it nbd, I work hard to maintain a unique style.
posted
There's nothing necessarily wrong with the exhaustive laundry list of drugs. However the issues are: a). it's in your first thirteen lines, and it's occupying space there that arguably could be better used (if you don't know why just 13 lines, then basically it is because that is what will be on your first page of a professionally formatted MS - and you want a prospective editor (=purchaser of your work) to turn to the next page. Most editors are inundated with far more submissions than they can handle, and arguably are looking, not for a reason to stay with a piece, but any reason to put it aside (because the vast majority of what they read will NOT be selected/published). Try and avoid ANY excuse for them to do that.
b). it's exhaustive... but it's a list. I don't know what a lot of those drugs are, or what they do. You say in later posts that it is indicative of his extreme care... but i's only indivcatve, surely, if the READER knows. You have a perfectly decent command of language, that much is clear, but I don't think you've yet learned to think of your story from a posssible reader's point of view. You know the story. You know why everything is there. But he reader doesn't have your mind. All they have is your words on a iece of paper, without any other contextual information. It's a lesson that's tough to learn.
My suggestoins are simple. Put this piece aside. Read the critiques on other pieces here. Make your own critiques. You will learn by doing this how to look at a story much less passionately (it's clear from your responses, and the defensive way they are phrased, you aren't used to a critiquing environment). When you've learned those things, you'll be a much better writer in terms of communicating with a reader.
You state you work hard to maintain a unique style (beware--bluntness ahead), however you also wondering why you aren't successfully imititating another author? We are all influenced by others, but a unique style usually comes with experience.
Poe wrote about 160-odd years ago, and the other book was written about 40 years ago (a little less)--styles change. What was interesting and new when these stories were published, isn't now.
That doesn't mean you can't do it, you just can't rely on these things to be a hook.
Victorian writing was chock full of expository passages--pages and pages of it--something a modern reader would not tolerate.
I'm not good at analysis--I'll let others explain what I can't.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited October 27, 2009).]
quote:I think I'd like to open with the uncomfortable falling into madness feel. An author like Poe can use it as a hook, somehow I'm failing. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
A few assumptions I made when reading your piece...
1. Personally, I associate falling into madness with an attempt to garner sympathy for the person doing the falling. This isn't a failing, just an observation.
2. The aforementioned person doing the falling is the protagonist of your story, and will be the sole (or primary, perhaps )POV character.
3. You've got a long way to go beyond this 13 lines.
Given these things, I see a particular difficulty with where you're starting your story (something I believe skadder mentioned). How can I, as a reader or an editor, be expected to sympathize with a character before I even know them? What kind of plot arch can I expect if here, at the beginning, he is at the bottom of the well. Is this a story of redemption? How am I expected to care for a person who, at this stage, has no observable personality characteristics beyond drug addiction and some form of unrequited love?
This, though, I can fly with, generally speaking, given that the writing is strong enough. Technically, there's nothing really wrong going on here, which I appreciate.
What throws me for a loop, and would make me discard this story quite quickly, is the brutal change in tone between the nightmare section at the beginning and the inventory section at the end. You probably have me as a reader for a few more pages, but too much of this kind of tonal shifting would be a major put-off for me.
posted
@tchernabyelo Thank you, that really helped. A lot of clarity and insight in your words. I understand now.
@skadder Thanks for still looking at my questions. Heh, well I will respond to your bluntness. I did craft my words before ever reading his art. I try hard not to copy style, though I know nothing is really new. I am hoping to pull a little of the feel of Poe without the language. Might not work.
Thanks again. I'm done until I can give you something new, fresh, and made better from your insight! That is, unless anyone else wants to comment. I'll greedily take all I can get. Thanks!
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Thank you for all your points, even those reiterated. It helps me to know how many people feel what way.
quote: This, though, I can fly with, generally speaking, given that the writing is strong enough. Technically, there's nothing really wrong going on here, which I appreciate.
Wow, thank you.
quote: What throws me for a loop, and would make me discard this story quite quickly, is the brutal change...
Yeah I'm going to have to figure this out. I want to portray drug use, with its moments of lucidity and moments of fantasy and madness. Maybe I can transition different.
quote: You probably have me as a reader for a few more pages, but too much of this kind of tonal shifting would be a major put-off for me.
Thank you, you're the first person to say that. It's frustrating 'cause I feel that's all I really need. Everything happens, the twist, personality etc in the next page. Which means I HAVE to come up with a better first 13 lines. I've got to get people to reach that.
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Don't feel bad. I felt the need to respond to my first couple of critiques, too. It's not easy at first. You get used to it.
Posts: 4633 | Registered: Dec 2008
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Revraidon, you have a few of the best and most published writers here at Hatrack offering you advice about your 13 lines - strongly consider what they are saying. Posts: 2003 | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:You shouldn't need to explain your intro as you have done in your second post--it should live or die on its own merits.
Actually, the guidlines on the Hatrack front page indicate that authors should state their intentions with a piece and what they want to accomplish with it etc in order to give people a context for critiqueing. Merits can depend a lot on context.
Ahh I see that was discussed some...and yes the author won't be there to explain things to an editor, but we aren't editors. We're fellow writers. To me as I've said before a big part of the point of a writers workshop is to get the very feedback and discussion you can't have with an editor, before it gets to the editor.
revraidon: I like you prefer discussion of feedback rather than simply observing it in a vacuum. However here responding to a crit with anything other than a "thank you" or a very specific question about something you don't understand at all is generally going to be taken negatively (despite the fact that the site guidlines also discuss brainstorming) however thats not the case with everyone. Over time you will, as I have, establish ties with other Hatrackers whose style of giving and recieving feedback is more in line with yours.
All that aside, and probably unsurprisingly too many, I quite like your first 13. I can see the touches of Poe and it also reminds me a bit of Simon Logan's stuff, an author you should probably check out if you havent.
Is the piece finished? I do have some crits to do already but I'd be interested in offering feedback and all as circumstances allow.
posted
I thought you didn't like rules, Merlion, so I'm surprised you're quoting them!
My opinion is that you don't need to explain an intro--a fragment perhaps, but not an intro. I believe you colour the mind of the critiquer.
It's a bit like saying that you think the intro may be a bit slow. Anyone reading it will be hyper aware of that facet of the story (and may over look other stuff). If it isn't mentionned, then you can see how many people notice that--perhaps no-one does, because other things about it carry it through.
Still my opinion though.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited October 29, 2009).]
quote: All that aside, and probably unsurprisingly too many, I quite like your first 13. I can see the touches of Poe and it also reminds me a bit of Simon Logan's stuff, an author you should probably check out if you havent.
Is the piece finished? I do have some crits to do already but I'd be interested in offering feedback and all as circumstances allow.
Thank you Merlion. That made may day.
First chapter I'm hoping to finish by Halloween. I would love your input. Otherwise, I can wait and send you the novella when I'm finished. If you are on Facebook, I release sections as they are written. Tell me what you'd prefer.
Please take this as sincere, but I am honored that you would read and critique the rest of my work.
quote:I thought you didn't like rules, Merlion, so I'm surprised you're quoting them!
Well first, I said Hatrack guidlines, not rules. It doesn't say you HAVE to include such information (though its encouraged) but nor is it a rule that you shouldn't.
Second, I think you misunderstand me. I don't have a problem with rules. The problem I some times have is that there are things many Hatrackers consider and treat as rules that are not rules at least in terms of the definition of the word I'm used to, but thats a whole other story.
quote:My opinion is that you don't need to explain an intro--a fragment perhaps, but not an intro. I believe you colour the mind of the critiquer.
I say this completely respectfully as an honest well-intentioned suggestion: I think it would be a good thing (and not just for you, for a lot of people) to include that "my opinion is" "in my opinion" "to me" etc when you initially say something rather than later. I realize some people believe you shouldn't have to but I honestly believe especially online just adding that small qualification to things can make interactions MUCH smoother. It's something I constantly strive to do myself. Heck, throwing it in more than once never hurts.
quote:First chapter I'm hoping to finish by Halloween. I would love your input. Otherwise, I can wait and send you the novella when I'm finished. If you are on Facebook, I release sections as they are written. Tell me what you'd prefer.
Send me the first chapter when its done. I didn't know it was a novella but thats fine...I will work in the first chapter when and how I can and we'll see from there. It seems we probably have similar approaches and thought proccesses, I foresee a good deal of interaction in our future.
quote: If you are on Facebook, I release sections as they are written.
revraidon - if you haven't already, you might want to consider reading the threads here about intellectual property/copyright (it's all in the "why just 13 lines" kinds of posts.) If you're making your work available on Facebook, it might be in that gray area of "previously published work" which many editors are not interested in.
We had a situation on Flash Fiction Online recently where we were ready to buy a specific story, only to discover that the author had already posted it on his blog. We did not buy the story, since we typically buy first publication rights. While FFO is a small market and only pays $50/story, it's still $50 (which counts toward SFWA membership since it's 5c/word, which is considered pro rates. We only publish flash stories, at or under 1000 words.)
At any rate - I know FB is different than a blog because presumably only your friends can see your posts/notes/etc., but these settings are configurable by you and not everyone chooses to keep their notes and other content private (facebook defaults to photos as being available to anyone, for example.) If you can google a specific line from your story (put it in quotes "the green sea spectacularly rose from within the depths of the orange glow, as Titorn sang a warbling ditty." <- like that, but please don't write anything so horrible, so that google treats the words as a whole rather than as individual words.) and find it in a search result, then that story is available to the public, and for the purposes of most publishers, is considered to be already self-published.
Does that make sense? Start a new thread on General Discussion if you want to get more input on this, as it's a topic that is changing rapidly with the way social networks work and have changed in recent years.
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Hi. Welcome to Hatrack where the truth hurts before you learn to want to hear it.
Since there have been three decent authors to comment on your work, KayTi, Skadder and Tchernabyelo, I'll try to be more direct with anything I find.
Here's My take:
quote: Darkened pupils darken dreams, the minds of men are fragile things.
I see her[Who?]. When the exhaustion[WHat exhaustion? From what?] overtakes me, when the lines blur[What lines blur? As of now I have no grounding in the story, yet. IMHO - that's what you should be trying for early.] and each {saccadic<--[This adjective is redundant, because it means:rapid] eye movement flashes her[I still can't picture her.] [lucidly<--[This adverb is not needed. If you describe her clearly, we'll know it's lucid.] into my mind.
I see her[Who? This is twice she's mentioned, and we still don't even know if she's blond, brunette, redhead or albino. If he knows--if he has a lucid picture, we should.]. [In the reflections of pictures, pictures of people.<--[Poetic, but it reads like stalling. What does this add? We don't even know of the Protagonist is male or female, inside or outside, dressed or naked.] [Memories that don't mean much<--[Incomplete. What memories? What is their relevenace?], other than everything I once loved.[Huh?]
She is my dream[,<-->;] she is my nightmare. [Still don't know who she is, or the least bit about her. Starting to feel you'll be hiding necessary information for the entire story, and, as a reader, I'm losing faith.] No, she is my only dream.[Huh?] She is a nightmare, not mine, but she has chosen me. [Now it's gotten redundant and withholding. The story is dead.]
[I take stock of my inventory, my equipment for my journey. Xanax, Valium, Trazodone, OTC sleeping pills, raw GABBA and 5HTTP. Oh yes, her calling card. Opium. Raw and unrefined. Maybe half a kilo left. Almost forgot, have two shots of epinephrine and a dose of methamphetamine in case I need to <--[I would never have gotten here, and I would've quit if I did.]
1) There's no character I can associate with.
2) I have no idea what's going on.
3) I have no idea where he or she is?
4) There is no speculative element.
I hope this helps. When you've gotten over the insult you will apparently take at the efforts,realize that by telling you what we think is missing, we're showing you areas to consider improving.
posted
I feel inclined to also comment on your 13 lines - I hope my input is appreciated.
First let me say that everyone here has their own style of critiquing. Some go line by line, some take a holistic approach. Some try to balance positive with negative, some take either an all positive or negative approach. Some focus on style and the indeterminate characteristics of writing, some focus on grammar and specific wording. There is no exact science to critiquing anymore than there is an exact science to writing a story. There are innumerous ways to write a great story, and there are innumerous benefits to receiving different types of critiques. If one only listens to a particular kind of critique, especially one of complimentary nature, then it is like only reading one kind of story - it becomes stale and unrewarding.
Many readers begin forming visual images related to a story from the very first word - this submerges a reader into the story. They become emotionally invested by the writer engaging their senses. In your opening, a reader is likely to begin forming mental images that would likely be incorrect. When a reader comes to a contradiction to the mental picture they have formed, it can pull them out of the story (there are always exceptions).
You began with poetry. There is nothing wrong with this, as long as it holds some meaning that will become evident. If it's just for effect then it should go. Next, appeal to our senses or to our intellect (show - be specific). Focus on the effect, not the list (a couple of meds should be sufficient). Bait us with something that makes us want to keep reading (style, a surprise, a character, etc.).
Finally, the fact that so many excellent writers have commented on this should inspire you, even if you consider most of what has been said as negative. Consider why they would bother commenting if you did not have potential. I suspect you have developed a fondness to this opening. I believe it was Stephen King who gave the following advice - I paraphrase: "Don't be afraid to kill your little darlings."
[This message has been edited by philocinemas (edited November 02, 2009).]
posted
"Murder your darlings" is advice that long predates King.
In "Cold Comfort Farm", Stella Gibbons actually marks her more purple paragraphs with from one to three asterisks to indicate their level of darlingness.
Incidentally, "Cold Comfort Farm" (a marvellous book) is actually SF - though the SFnal elements are sutble, and easy to overlook when read now, it was actually set about 20 years ahead in time of when it was written.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
quote: Many readers begin forming visual images related to a story from the very first word - this submerges a reader into the story. They become emotionally invested by the writer engaging their senses. In your opening, a reader is likely to begin forming mental images that would likely be incorrect. When a reader comes to a contradiction to the mental picture they have formed, it can pull them out of the story (there are always exceptions).
I really like what you said here.
quote: You began with poetry. There is nothing wrong with this, as long as it holds some meaning that will become evident. If it's just for effect then it should go. Next, appeal to our senses or to our intellect (show - be specific). Focus on the effect, not the list (a couple of meds should be sufficient). Bait us with something that makes us want to keep reading (style, a surprise, a character, etc.).
Thank you for taking the time to read my work. I left Hatrack before you posted. I understand your argument, but the poetry has a purpose. It's how he deals with his obsession. Like a sonnet from Shakespeare (yes, I know he's not modern). Do you have any suggestions on how to make it self evident? It was kind of heartbroken drunken rambling with some class...
The med list will get moved further down and maybe cut some. They successfully used a laundry list of drugs in the movie Pi, which I felt help demonstrate his desperation.
quote: Finally, the fact that so many excellent writers have commented on this should inspire you, even if you consider most of what has been said as negative. Consider why they would bother commenting if you did not have potential. I suspect you have developed a fondness to this opening. I believe it was Stephen King who gave the following advice - I paraphrase: "Don't be afraid to kill your little darlings."
I am, even if it was very begrudging at first... I am thankful. Thanks to everyone who took time to critique my work
Yes, I've developed a fondness for my Prologue, but it's also been a hard wall writers block. I have ideas but when I write them they don't resonate as well with me as those lines of poetry. Maybe I'll post some of them up here to see what you think.
You can quote King, but I'll offer this counter quote,
"Write to please just one person. If you open a window and make love to the world, so to speak, your story will get pneumonia." -Vonnegut
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Blunt, gentle, abrasive, complimentary - you can find it all here! 
Not all of us are trolling the F&F looking for more discussion (general discussions happen in the general discussion area, surprisingly!) - I happen to be procrastinating something so you're getting an excess of my time today. Crud, I owe someone a critique...I shouldn't be procrastinating THAT. 
