posted
Why do people post the beginning of an unfinished story on the F&F board and ask for crits?
I'd normally recommend that if a story is unfinished then finish it and then ask for crits. If you're unsure about your start, change it after you've finished. Don't get hooked up on the beginning. Sometimes I think that experience here helps as much as other people's opinions. The more stories you write and finish the more likely you are to know yourself what works or doesn't.
posted
I agree. I've even been one to try that -- get opinions on just the first part of an unfinished story. The most likely thing to happen is that I never finish the story at all. And then what have I gained by the experience?
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I have posted the first 13 lines of a prologue that I was working on. I had not finished the prologue, much less the rest of the book. I posted the first 13 lines regardless because getting feedback about the start would give me an idea if I was not hitting the correct tone and just needed to scrap the whole thing for a rewrite. The positive feedback I got helped me to feel encouraged that I had created the feelings I wanted. I ended up completing the prologue in just with just a few sentences, instead of trying to further develope the scene/character because I knew I had that down on the first 13 lines. Sometimes, when you're stuck, it helps to get some feedback on what you have. Sometimes the problem is that a person needs to know they are on the right track. Sometimes we find we need to change one thing and in changing it we've fixed the tangle that we were stuck on and didn't even know it. I don't think it should always be done that way, nor do I think that posting the first 13 of a short story before it is done would be wise. I do understand such action for a novel or a person who just needs a little feedback if they are stuck and they think what they have written might be part of the problem.
Posts: 233 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I would say that there is a difference between novels and short stories in this case. I often ask for feedback on the first few chapters of a novel before I'm finished to make sure I've got the right groundwork laid. I do find that to be benefitial. After all, I'm about to dedicate many, many, many hours of my life to this work and it would be a shame to get to the end only to find out that this one mistake in chapter 1, filtered through to the end, means it needs a full rewrite.
On the other hand, I've never found a critique of the first 13 lines of my novel remotely useful. The first 13 lines of a short story needs to hook. The first thirteen lines of a novel needs to start something, but you have a couple of pages to hook.
posted
I don't get this either, but I figure they have their reasons. Wait, I did do this once and I never finished the story. See, it's a lame idea. I definitely think for a short story it's a potential killer. Complete the thought and then get advice, that's what I think. Otherwise you might let someone's opinion keep you from finishing.
For a novel I'm still unsure. It takes so much momentum to finish a novel why would you want to maybe put a kink in it? I let my husband just check to make sure I'm making sense and keep going. The most aggravating thing to me is spending hours and hours and then saying, well I'll come back to it later. Who are we kidding when we say that? Positive feedback is great for a push, but too much negative and you're screeching to a hault.
posted
Sometimes, when someone posts an unfinished story, I feel like they haven't done their best on it. They've done some work, and now they're asking the community in general to do some work for them. Not all of them are like this...but some posts feel this way to me. I only want to crit something after it's the very best the author can make it -- when my critiquing is something they couldn't have done for themselves because they needed fresh eyes. I don't want to spend time working on something, only to have an author think: "Oh yes, I was going to change that anyway, I knew why that was bad, thanks for doing work I could have done myself..."
I guess critiques for the first part of an unfinished novel might be helpful, but I think I'd be unwilling to do that. When a novel is finished, the begining tends to change a lot...at least, that's how I write. A critique wouldn't do me any good until I've done everything on the piece that I knew how to do.
posted
Well, one of the reasons I called F&F "Fragments and Feedback" is because there may be times when someone has started something and can't figure out how to finish it. (This is not an uncommon problem for some writers.)
I haven't really seen the area used this way, but I wanted it to be possible for someone to post something along the lines of "here are my first 13 lines, and I have taken the story to the point where thus and such has happened, but I don't know what to do to bring it to a satisfactory conclusion--suggestions would be greatly appreciated."
I believe brainstorming story fragments ought to be an option at a writing workshop.
posted
I've posted an unfinished frag once or twice. Both times I finished the story, but only because I had a pretty solid idea of the ending. It was the opening I wasn't sure about.
Overall, I don't see any problem with it unless the person posting is blatantly trying to get others to write the story for them (I saw one like that once and only once on F&F).
posted
I've posted a portion of an unfinished story when I needed a kick in the pants to keep going. It's worked well for me.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Jul 2003
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Mainly to get some VERY general feedback on my success to that point on characterization, or believability, or the reader understanding the plot twists. Mary actually read a frag for me at Boot Camp. I needed to know if she understood what had happened to a certain character and why.
FETCH! That was FUN! Geez! How could you get any better than to have Mary Robinette sitting across a table from you to bounce thoughts off of!
But like Keeley said, it's EXTREMELY bad form to post and expect others to write your story for you.
posted
I posted an unfinished story very recently (maybe even the one that prompted this thread). The reason is thus: I am struggling with how to start the story, which voice to use, and whether what I'm considering works. I post the first 13 lines because there's no point in writing any further if it's not working. If it works, I continue. Since it wasn't working, I didn't bother to finish that draft and I'm still thinking about the right way to start. Meanwhile, I work on another story and finish this one later.
For me, I know exactly what stories I'm going to work on, and in what order, though sometimes I work on fragments of stories that are "on deck" whenever I have a few minutes.
posted
I don't mind giving feedback just on the opening, if that's all someone wants. And if that's what you're doing, it doesn't matter whether any more of the story has actually been written down.
But, I have to agree somewhat with the sentiment that it's pointless to post the first thirteen lines when it's all you've got. I don't think that anyone has to have gone through any great labor in writing before asking for help. But I do think that it is better to sit down and work on a story for at least one writing session before stopping and asking for directions.
If you're only writing thirteen lines in a writing session, then you need to figure out a way to write a lot more per session. You could try longer sessions, or write a little faster. I don't mind giving feedback on something in which the writer has only invested about five minutes of writing. But I think that if you don't feel impelled to write more than 13 lines at a time, there's something wrong with either your story idea, your language skills, or your writing habits.
If you're interested in the story, and you are reasonably competent at the simple mechanics of written language (including actually typing it into your computer or whatever), and you're doing BIC to any meaningful degree, then you'd never write only thirteen lines. You might write a couple of pages and then wonder where the heck your story is going (I've done that a lot), but you'll still have more than thirteen lines.
Why not let someone help you with those? There are various reasons. I started writing a scene where my character starts figuring out where "orks" come from, and I had to stop writing it because it was kinda sick in a lot of ways. But it isn't like I would've posted the first thirteen and thought that anyone could help me fix the parts I wasn't sending anyone.
So I'm sure that there probably isn't a good reason to post a fragment when that's all you've written. That indicates that you have a problem that we can't solve for you, either you're unwilling to write (or let anyone see) any more than that for some reason, or you haven't learned how to write more than that per...let's say day. One writing session per day sounds reasonable, though really it varies, some people only get a couple of sessions a week, some use a couple of sessions every day. Anyway, either of those are things that the other forum members can't really fix.
posted
If that is in response to my post above, you've read some of my work, and you know that I understand the mechanics, and I know the plot. I have only a limited amount of time I am able to write and I don't want to waste it.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
I've learnt the hard way that showing someone the beginning of an unfinished story can almost guarantee it will never be finished--but that's me. Every writer is different in the way they work.
One of two things usually happens to me. Either, in explaining how the story will go, I lose the drive to write it. Or, someone will ride so roughshod over me with their own idea of how my story should go, that I feel reluctant to go back to it. So, I usually keep them to myself until they're finished .
I have been surprised by how many people post fragments from unfinished stories here, and have had my doubts about how useful it is. But if they do find it useful, I don't see that there's anything wrong with it. People offering critique only have to input as much or as little as they choose. If you don't want to finish the story for someone, then don't .
posted
Again, though, I have to point out that I already have the story written in my head. I'm looking at vehicle, not substance.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
I don't mind people posting fragments of unfinished stories, as long as they are making a serious effort at writing. What I object to are the people who post 13 lines and say, in essence, "I pulled this opener out of my butt and since I'm bored I thought I'd post it here to see what everyone says." I don't have time to critique the stuff that is posted merely to amuse someone. If it isn't a serious effort at writing a story, then I say leave it up your butt where it belongs. Posts: 2026 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Hmm, everytime I pull something out of my butt it turns into a poem. Not sure why, I don't like poetry.
Seems to me that there are two types of writers posting fragments: those that write for others and those that write for themselves (I know, another thread). Personally, whether I've written 5 paragraphs or 500, I write for me first. The critiques provide all the benefits already mentioned but I'd never let "bad" ones stop me from writing my story. I'd think real hard before considering to submit it - maybe it's not fully baked and needs to sit on the shelf awhile.
posted
Spaceman, I wasn't actually responding to you in particular, but I think that I'll stand by the general principles I stated.
Be fair to yourself. Just because you weren't able to put out a perfect opening on your first try at a new style/voice, that doesn't mean that you won't begin to do better if you invest at least a full session working on it. Write out a page or two, get the feel of what your doing. Then you can go back to the opening, give it a few tweaks to apply anything you've learned, and see if the result generates a favorable reaction.
Like I said, though, it isn't any of my business whether another writer has written more than the first thirteen lines if all that person asks for is feedback on the first thirteen. I just think that writing only thirteen lines isn't a good way to jump into a new work. It makes it too hard to really gather your momentum.
Then again, I don't bother with a writing session unless I have enough time to write a couple of pages and save them. That sometimes means I go a while without working on my fiction. Sometimes I sacrifice writing time so that I can read something. So in a lot of ways I advocate different habits from some of those embraced by other writers. Not all advice works for all writers, even though I think that writing more than 13 lines of a story when you start writing it is necessary, it might not be for everyone.
posted
In this specific instance, I have gone through probably five different iterations with a total of about 3,000 words, all of which I've discarded.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
I'll quote someone a little more famous than me.
quote: "Write the first draft with the door closed, then open the door.
The questions I'm now going to ask are: "Do you want this story to be yours or a collaborative effort?"
"If you have limited writing time, why waste it on a story you have not full organised in your head yet."
I rarely offer advice, but I know what works for me. Sit down and finish it. It may take a week, a month, a year. but once it's done then you can play with tone, characterisation, first 13 etc... You don't want to spend time in a rewrite? Then I hope this is a hobby for you.
posted
The story in question is actually a story that I finished a number of years ago and am rewriting as a new story.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
Hmmm...I still think that getting into the flow of writing would be more helpful than rewriting the opening over and over. Still, that's only my opinion.
Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I'm not getting the voice I want. I think I posted the 13 lines more to confirm that I was right about it not working than to see if it worked. Anyway, this story is going to be on the top of the to do list once the one I finished last night.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2010
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I definitely think for a short story it's a potential killer. Complete the thought and then get advice, that's what I think. Otherwise you might let someone's opinion keep you from finishing.
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