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» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Open Discussions About Writing » Being "stuck" and losing hope or getting too cynical? (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Being "stuck" and losing hope or getting too cynical?
Merlion-Emrys
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I don't think Robert's issues have anything to do with hobbyist versus aspiring pro or anything like that
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Robert Nowall
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quote:
SMF dates back to at least the pulp era. It's not any one editor's notion.

So the computers in the pulp era had to be reset from the default Times New Roman typeface to Courier?

*****

I think some of my arguments from the other thread wandered into this one...these are going on simultaneous now and make use of similar arguments.


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babooher
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I've been stuck for some time. I had been writing, writing, and some writing some more, but I was unable to finish ANYTHING! I pondered, after a drink or two of sorrow, if I was going to be giving this writing thing up.

Finally, I finished something (just last week!) and still I wondered if it was the last story I had. I thought, if it takes 18 months to finish a short story, I can't really be a writer.

Then, I realized that a bunch of things I had worked on but hadn't finished I hadn't finished because the story had reached a word count that was going to be unmarketable. Unmarketable for short story markets anyway.

I've got a novel coming. I know I do. I got stuck because I kept focusing on the wrong things--word counts, names of things, how to signify sign language--anything other than the story.

I think when writers get "stuck" it's because they no longer are listening to the story in their hearts, and instead are listening to markets and editor preferences and...forum rants.

I worked on my writing future today. I worked on my novel. I worked.

And I've got a lot more work to do.


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WBSchmidt
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@babooher

Thank you for that comment.

One thing I have tried to do--not always successfully--is to turn off my Internal Editor. I get so caught up on being perfect the first time around that I cannot get anything started.

I see this as similar to your comment in that I want to do my best to just write and ignore the Internal Editors or the Popular Trends.

--William


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TamesonYip
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Robert- would it make you feel better if you switched your default font to courier new? That is really easy to do. Or is it that you agree that Microsoft runs the world, so if they set the computer font to Wingdings, you would expect everyone to be happy with that?
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Robert Nowall
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I am simply suggesting that what's good enough for other industries is good enough for the publishing industry. Most paperbacks are printed in Times New Roman. The State Department switched all its documents to Times New Roman.

A lot of you guys keep complaining that the publishing industry is stuck in the past in so many ways. Isn't this just another one?


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Osiris
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Well, I know of a magazine (not sci-fi) that has an online system that reformats your manuscript automatically to their liking. Specifically they say don't worry about which font you used. This is the exception and not the rule, however. I forget which magazine it was though.
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TamesonYip
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Osiris- there is a pro paying magazing scifi/fantasy that does that too. I don't remember which one, but I know when I was looking at places to submit one of my stories I saw that. I think they asked that you submit in rtf format maybe and let them take it from there. Wish I could remember which one- I know it was pro because I did a duotrope and filtered out all the non-pro markets first.
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Osiris
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Tameson you are right, I remember that one too. Fortunately I WAS able to remember who that is, its Strange Horizons.

http://www.strangehorizons.com/guidelines/fiction.shtml#How_To_Submit

Robert, have you tried submitting to them?


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DRaney
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babooher & WBSchmidt, me too! It seems like the more creative I allow my writing to be, the more I get chomped half to death by the crit process. I can take a crit gut-punch and not fold completely, but I do fold at least a little bit. And I find that getting stuck often happens just after someone has offered comments which calls for changing almost every single word of a 13 line submission, for example.

The benefits found here at Hatrack are tremendous, though laced with some bitter herbs. I see only a tiny smattering of positive feedback... well truthfully, practically none. Can we not hear of the things we are doing right? Is positive reenforcement such a detriment to the writing process? Not for me. The thing I need the most from time to time is confimation that I am not 'writing with a mental crayon' so to speak. Although, if I AM writing that way I DO want to be aware, so the functional concept becomes; to strike a balance between pointing out mistakes/short-falls and showing our happy face when we read something good.

I am stuck on the Cinder story because I am already in my head, trying to write good... OSCard says we should avoid this during the creative first concept writing phase because it is easy to lose track of the story and get... Stuck! Hemingway warns that you should not let a single set of eyes fall on your work until you are completely finished, to the absolute best of your ability (paraphrased by Deauxglas).


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Crank
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quote:
if it takes 18 months to finish a short story, I can't really be a writer.

I used to say the same thing about myself vs. my own level of proficiency (or, lack thereof). Even worse, some of my more involved short stories took longer than 18 months. Way longer than 18 months.

It finally occurred to me that my criticism over my slow pace was actually contributing to that slow pace. I was looking at the prize, and not the steps in front of me that led to the prize; my wanting to go faster for the sake of that prize caused me to do a lot of stumbling.

Here's an analogy I used on myself: You don't just walk up to a Tae Kwon Do master for the first time and say, "I'm here, gimmie my black belt." He (and the vast majority of his students) would clean the mat with you. But, after you work at it and improve your skills, the master will gladly hand that black belt to you. Once I saw my situation in those terms, and got it through my head that I am still learning the craft of writing, I became much more forgiving with myself about how long some of my pieces were taking. Ironic, perhaps, that during my studies to become a better writer, I have learned a few ideas on how to become a more proficient writer.

S!
S!

[This message has been edited by Crank (edited August 04, 2010).]


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philocinemas
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I am curious - do those of you who get "stuck", and/or have stories that go on forever, use some form of story plotting or outline?

I have done both formal (with Roman numerals and alpha-numerical sequencing) and informal (with main occurrences simply written chronologically), and this tends to keep me from straying or getting "stuck".

I have a tendency to write the bare minimum in developing my stories, similar to flash fiction, and then go back and fill in holes and add specifics and plot developments (depth) after I have completed my first draft of a story. If I get "stuck", this is where it happens for me, because even though I have a "complete" story, I am constantly touching it up like a painter who's never quite finished with a piece (or like George Lucas).


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Osiris
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DrRaney,

I sympathize with what you are saying. I personally try to always give both positive reinforcement as well as constructive criticism.
I agree mostly with both OSC and Hemingway. I agree with what he is saying that it is easy to get lost and lose track of the story, I can feel it when it happens too. I do allow myself a bit of luxury in "trying" to write too well, but I actually have a process that incorporates a "Pre-game, Game-time, and Post-game" to the writing of a story. The pre-game is a series of exercises that keeps the story on focus. It includes OSC's index card exercise that he writes about in one of the lessons on this website.
As for Hemingway, I agree that no eyes should fall on your first draft, but I also believe the "proof is in the pudding" and therefore like to beta test my story after I have revised the story once.

My process is very similar to one of my favorite authors, Alastair Reynolds. I guess since we are both scientists I should not be surprised that we have a similar process and that I enjoy his writing so much. He writes about his process here:

http://voxish.tripod.com/id19.html


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babooher
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philocinemas, I don't do outlines for shorts normally. I had always been able to conceptualize my work before pretty much from start to finish, but I was writing different genres. With my transition to fantasy (especially steampunk) I've discovered there is so much more to keep track of, so much more to create, so much more.

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Robert Nowall
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Like I said, I don't do the e-submission thing. Online publication doesn't "do it" for me---it's not what I was looking for when I started this thing many years ago. Print publication, and in particular publication in the magazines, was my goal, and still is.

This is less of an absolute for me than some of the other things I've brought up---I don't do it, but I'm not saying I'll never do it. The circumstances have to suit me. Or somebody has to ask me for something, and, if I've got anything, I'll send it on.

Besides, the Big Three look like they're dying right before my eyes, with one of 'em bimonthly and all three with such dropoffs in their subscriptions. When they go, I'll just have to pick some other alternative---if I decide to pursue this further.


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Brad R Torgersen
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Both Asimov's and Analog enjoy the financial backing of Dell Magazines, which is part of Penny Publications LLC. They make all those crossword and sudoku puzzle magazines you see at the supermarket, and elsewhere. In fact, when you sell to either of these genre markets, your contracts and checks come from Dell. So I think as long as Asimov's and Analog have this "sugar daddy" setup, I believe their continuation to be secure, in spite of the declining circulation numbers.

Fantasy & Science Fiction is another matter, as Gordon Van Gelder functions as both editor and publisher. If I had to bet on any of The Big Three biting the dust in the next five to ten years, it would be F&SF. Which doesn't have the same kind of safety net as the other two.

And I agree with Robert in that I'm "old" enough to have esteemed to print publication. Many younger and/or newer writers don't seem to care. I care, because there is just something more (literally) tangible about having a book or magazine in your hand, as opposed to electrons and pixels on the screen.


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Robert Nowall
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Well, in my day, I saw the SF magazines at the supermarket---they just don't pop up there anymore. (The first two issues of Analog that I bought were bought at a drugstore in Maryland just outside Washington DC---a year apart.) Nowadays I see 'em at Barnes & Noble and Books-a-Million---but nowhere else.

The risk of a subsidized market is that the subsidy might abruptly end.


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axeminister
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This is from FlashFictionOnline:

Fonts, margins, and other formatting don’t matter and won’t be noticed, for better or for worse; your submission will be automatically reformatted upon opening. Only boldface, italics, and underlining will remain.

@Draney,

I believe - regarding positive feedback on the 13, when someone says they'd read on, you're golden. If no one says that, it doesn't mean your story is bad, just that the first 13 lines need work. It's not always black and white - you'll get iffy feedback (I might read on if you strengthened -this-) etc, but if you're looking for positive or negative, that's it.

My suggestion is, (and I totally learned this from someone here) practice your 13's... even if you don't have a story behind it. It should teach you what works as far as openings go and focus your prose beyond that based on the lessons learned.

Look in the writing challenges section for free 13's.

Axe


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Robert Nowall
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quote:
Only boldface, italics, and underlining will remain.

I have certain reservations about that---I've had it fail on transmission on many occasions. Though perhaps they have improved the process since the last time I've tried.

(I picked up a certain convention in fanfic writing---for emphasis, we were using *asterixes* at the beginning and end of words. I found it interesting---but this is one case where I *do* remind myself that it is *not* the conventional way to emphasize words, and so I don't---unless I forget.)


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tchernabyelo
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I suspect that convention comes from early WP software where typing *this* would actually autoconvert to this.

Robert, I'm not clear on what you are saaying in your first sentence - are you saying you've subbed to FFO and had problems with their process?


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Robert Nowall
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Not FlashFictionOnline, but elsewhere. But that was usually .txt, or something pasted onto the end of an e-mail. Then there's fanfic, where I sent things off in HTML files---which lost all my paragraph structure.

I'm told there are ways to beat this, but, after a couple of intense passes at trying to, I gave up.


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