Hatrack River Writers Workshop Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Hatrack Groups » WotF Critique Group -- 2013 Q04 (Page 2)

  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: WotF Critique Group -- 2013 Q04
RyanB
Member
Member # 10008

 - posted      Profile for RyanB   Email RyanB         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sorry, I'm running late again. This ending is dragging out ... but in a good way, I think.
Posts: 222 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tim
Member
Member # 9989

 - posted      Profile for Tim   Email Tim         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Group 2,

I think I've sent out all first round critiques at this point. Let me know if anyone didn't receive them so I can resend them.

Thanks,

Tim

Posts: 20 | Registered: Dec 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
axeminister
Member
Member # 8991

 - posted      Profile for axeminister   Email axeminister         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hmm, I just noticed Aug 7th was the date to swap crits in the 2nd round.

I'm just digging in to my crits now, (have all kinds of documents open) so I'll be a few days. Perhaps by the end of the weekend, I'll send all to group 1.

Axe

Posts: 1543 | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WriterDan
Member
Member # 6456

 - posted      Profile for WriterDan   Email WriterDan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah, I just noticed today that the swap date had arrived...and passed. Sorry.

Anyhow, here are the current groups, as far as I can tell:

Group 1:
WriterDan
LDWriter2
mbwood
RyanB

Group 2:
Axeminister
Tim
AYeatts
Utahute72
Dirk Hairychest


If you're listed in Group 1, send your stories to the others in Group 2.
If you're listed in Group 2, send your stories to the others in Group 1.

Posts: 599 | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Utahute72
Member
Member # 9057

 - posted      Profile for Utahute72   Email Utahute72         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dirk

Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I never did find it, did mine come through your way? I'll still read yours if I can find it.

Jim

Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dirk Hairychest
Member
Member # 10105

 - posted      Profile for Dirk Hairychest   Email Dirk Hairychest         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey Ute, I sure did get it. I think I have sent you 5 separate emails. If you can think of something to make sure it doesn't go to junk mail, just let me know!

I should have my next draft out to group 1 by tomorrow. Thanks to all who critiqued my first draft from group 2. There were some very excellent suggestions that I tried to implement.

Posts: 60 | Registered: Jul 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LDWriter2
Member
Member # 9148

 - posted      Profile for LDWriter2   Email LDWriter2         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey, I will be sending mine out to group two after all. Probably tomorrow.

I thought it needed a whole lot more work so I was going to say I won't be sending it out again but group two could send me their stories. But It didn't take as long as I thought to fix what corrections I was shown. Probably was some I wasn't shown, and I may have created some more bad spots, so I will be sending it out.

If you don't have my E-mail address, not it's not the one listed, say so here or wait for my story tomorrow.

Posts: 5240 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LDWriter2
Member
Member # 9148

 - posted      Profile for LDWriter2   Email LDWriter2         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sent mine out. None back yet. Which means I'm not the only one late this quarter.


I wonder if we will get into the habit of sending in stories at the last moment like half of those over at the WotF forum....it seems like half that is.

BTW that includes last years Grand winner, She had to send her husband out looking for a 24 post office. Yes, incredible enough he found one.

Posts: 5240 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dirk Hairychest
Member
Member # 10105

 - posted      Profile for Dirk Hairychest   Email Dirk Hairychest         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sent my revised short out to group 1. Woo Hoo!
Please let me know if you did not receive it.

I received mb and ld's and we'll get to the crits asap!

Posts: 60 | Registered: Jul 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RyanB
Member
Member # 10008

 - posted      Profile for RyanB   Email RyanB         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dirk, it was in my spam folder but I fished it out.

LD, IIRC someone on the WotF forums located the post office for him/her. They joked it was a team effort.

Posts: 222 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
axeminister
Member
Member # 8991

 - posted      Profile for axeminister   Email axeminister         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've received from MBwood and LDwriter.

I'm sending mine now.

Axe

Posts: 1543 | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LDWriter2
Member
Member # 9148

 - posted      Profile for LDWriter2   Email LDWriter2         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by axeminister:
I've received from MBwood and LDwriter.

I'm sending mine now.

Axe

Did you use my new E-mail address?
Posts: 5240 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
axeminister
Member
Member # 8991

 - posted      Profile for axeminister   Email axeminister         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Your query leads me to the conclusion that no, I did not. [Smile]

Will reply to your story and send mine.

Axe

Posts: 1543 | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WriterDan
Member
Member # 6456

 - posted      Profile for WriterDan   Email WriterDan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Okay, I've sent mine off. Be looking for it. I've only received a story from Axe so far.
Posts: 599 | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RyanB
Member
Member # 10008

 - posted      Profile for RyanB   Email RyanB         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dan, did you send it to group 1 or just group 2?
Posts: 222 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
A Yeatts
Member
Member # 9500

 - posted      Profile for A Yeatts   Email A Yeatts         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dan and LD, I have your stories. I'm running a tad late myself. I'll get both my story and your crits to you as soon as I can.
Posts: 207 | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LDWriter2
Member
Member # 9148

 - posted      Profile for LDWriter2   Email LDWriter2         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Working on critting one story but not my own yet.


I got my months mixed up I thought this was the month but we got one more.

Posts: 5240 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
axeminister
Member
Member # 8991

 - posted      Profile for axeminister   Email axeminister         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Update:

I've received and critiqued stories from:
Louis
Malcolm
Dan

Received my critiqued story from:
Malcolm

Let me know if there's any e-mail trickery afoot.

Axe

Posts: 1543 | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RyanB
Member
Member # 10008

 - posted      Profile for RyanB   Email RyanB         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm really close to sending mine out, then I'll work on crits for the stories I have, LD, Axe, Dirk, Anna, and Tim.
Posts: 222 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WriterDan
Member
Member # 6456

 - posted      Profile for WriterDan   Email WriterDan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
@RyanB: I just sent my story to Group 2. I didn't get my story finished until after the deadline for second-round crits. If you really want to read mine, I'll send it to you too, but I didn't want to double-up on anyone that didn't intentionally ask for it. [Smile]

I still have 2 or 3 crits to go. Will have those done by week's end. Sorry I'm behind again. I got some really good feedback on my story. Thanks, everyone.

Posts: 599 | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LDWriter2
Member
Member # 9148

 - posted      Profile for LDWriter2   Email LDWriter2         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It seems like I ame getting more stories and crits than just the five I sent out. Which is okay except for one thing.


I changed my story. The original one had all kinds of problems-not the big one everyone seemed to assume was the problem-and I think I failed, most aren't getting what it is about. And I have been told that there is a strong possibility what you could call a PC or feminist problem.

Thought I had received all my crits but seems like I didn't after all. So I apologize for those who are still working through the original story.

I will be still sending out that original one so the crits I received have helped make it better and the grammar cleaner. I really appreciate that.

Posts: 5240 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WriterDan
Member
Member # 6456

 - posted      Profile for WriterDan   Email WriterDan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, I got all of my crits done...except for Ryan. Sorry, yo. Will try to get that one done tomorrow and back to you. As far as I know, this will complete my critiques. If anyone besides Ryan thinks that I still have their story and they have no review, drop me a word.

Until then... happy writing!

Posts: 599 | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LDWriter2
Member
Member # 9148

 - posted      Profile for LDWriter2   Email LDWriter2         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have one more crit to do.

I'll be working on it this week.

Posts: 5240 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LDWriter2
Member
Member # 9148

 - posted      Profile for LDWriter2   Email LDWriter2         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I believe I have sent in all my crits. If anyone hasn't received one from me send me a note.

Now to work on my story.

Posts: 5240 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mbwood
Member
Member # 9525

 - posted      Profile for mbwood   Email mbwood         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I checked all of my crits and believe I only need to do one for UtahUte72. So, please send it and I'll turn it around ASAP.

Thanks to all those who offered constructive crits on my piece, which is about to go in to the WotF 2013Q4 contest.

Remember the first rule of writing... Write!
mbwood

Posts: 216 | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RyanB
Member
Member # 10008

 - posted      Profile for RyanB   Email RyanB         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think I've sent out crits for all of the stories I received. If you haven't gotten yours from me, let me know. Thanks everyone for the crits I've received so far.
Posts: 222 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LDWriter2
Member
Member # 9148

 - posted      Profile for LDWriter2   Email LDWriter2         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sent mine in. Since no one has mentioned that I skipped critting their story I am assuming I'm finished for this quarter.

If I'm wrong about the critting leave a note.

Or if a late comer needs an extra crit I may have time for one.

Posts: 5240 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mbwood
Member
Member # 9525

 - posted      Profile for mbwood   Email mbwood         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hello, today, I submitted my piece to the WotF 2013 Q4 contest.

Many thanks to those 'Hatrackers' who offered meaningful comments and suggestions - obviously they improved the story in ways I could not. Now, the long wait begins.

Thanks!
mbwood

Posts: 216 | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LDWriter2
Member
Member # 9148

 - posted      Profile for LDWriter2   Email LDWriter2         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
After reading some of David's daily kicks lately I thought this one might have a chance for something. But after Three's total crash I don't anymore. Three had better writing.
Posts: 5240 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dirk Hairychest
Member
Member # 10105

 - posted      Profile for Dirk Hairychest   Email Dirk Hairychest         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I did it! I finished and submitted my story just at the deadline. Whew! It is the first story i ever submitted anywhere ever. Awesome!
Posts: 60 | Registered: Jul 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
axeminister
Member
Member # 8991

 - posted      Profile for axeminister   Email axeminister         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Congrats Dirk!

My very first sub was to WotF, too.

Hope you do better than my HM. Ha!

Axe

Posts: 1543 | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tim
Member
Member # 9989

 - posted      Profile for Tim   Email Tim         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Apparently, rejections are already going out for this quarter. Looks like they're pushing for an April publication for V. 30.

I haven't heard anything...yet. Hope everyone else is still in the running!

Tim

Posts: 20 | Registered: Dec 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
History
Member
Member # 9213

 - posted      Profile for History   Email History         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is true.

Ms Labaqui informed me they wish to have the anthology in print in April with the Gala. They plan to have results for Q4 finished in mid December and the announcement of any non-winning "fillers" for the volume decided by Christmas.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob

Posts: 1475 | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LDWriter2
Member
Member # 9148

 - posted      Profile for LDWriter2   Email LDWriter2         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, that was an unexpected shock.

Nothing for my Q4 story.

My two best stories and zero for me for both--that's third and fourth quarters.

No matter what two people have stated--one being an editor--there is no evidence I am getting better.

Posts: 5240 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
History
Member
Member # 9213

 - posted      Profile for History   Email History         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Keep with it LD. I note on the WOTF forum, you have been published in Strange New Worlds 10. You must have done something right.
Posts: 1475 | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LDWriter2
Member
Member # 9148

 - posted      Profile for LDWriter2   Email LDWriter2         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thank you for the comment.


quote:
Originally posted by History:
Keep with it LD. I note on the WOTF forum, you have been published in Strange New Worlds 10. You must have done something right.

For a very short period of time I did something right--what six or more years ago.

My first HM at WotF came out of the batch of stories I did around that time, as did another two or three other HMs, later I received a personal note from JJA on one of those and another story sent to SNW was good enough to get in but they could only take one story at a time. Then I forgot how to write, or lost my voice or something because it's been nothing since. Well, can't say nothing but very little. One story made it to the last round for one e-zine--New Myth maybe--and I got one HM for a mini contest at onthepremises.com, one last HM from WotF. Nothing else has been even close. Still stuck on barely good at the best like I have been for five years.

Posts: 5240 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
snapper
Member
Member # 7299

 - posted      Profile for snapper   Email snapper         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
How did get such privledged informationlike that, Doctor Bob? Have you received another finalist notification? Or do you and Ms Joni just keep in touch to chew the fat on a regular basis?

curious.

Posts: 3072 | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LDWriter2
Member
Member # 9148

 - posted      Profile for LDWriter2   Email LDWriter2         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hmm, maybe I am doing something right after all-I received the same privileged info. [Smile]

It could be my charm.


It was stated on my rejection.

So obviously something not right enough.

[ November 01, 2013, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: LDWriter2 ]

Posts: 5240 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RyanB
Member
Member # 10008

 - posted      Profile for RyanB   Email RyanB         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LDWriter2:

My first HM at WotF came out of the batch of stories I did around that time, as did another two or three other HMs, later I received a personal note from JJA on one of those and another story sent to SNW was good enough to get in but they could only take one story at a time. Then I forgot how to write, or lost my voice or something because it's been nothing since. Well, can't say nothing but very little. One story made it to the last round for one e-zine--New Myth maybe--and I got one HM for a mini contest at onthepremises.com, one last HM from WotF. Nothing else has been even close. Still stuck on barely good at the best like I have been for five years.

DF did a Kick a while back about why some writers never make it. It was something along the lines of "some people will never make it because A or B or C or D." I think David was wrong. If I thought he was right I wouldn't be writing this post.

If someone with ASD who never learned to understand human facial expressions can learn facial expressions (with a lot of work) once they understand that's something to be learned, I think a person can learn any aspect of writing. It's just harder for some people.

I'm going to digress for a minute. Stay with me. I just heard Jim Butcher give some writing advice. He said to always be writing. When you finish a piece, put it out of your head and start working on the next piece. Do this again and again and again until you find success. (I'm paraphrasing.)

This is terrible advice.

Perhaps it works for some people, but if you've been doing this for umpteen years and you haven't made any progress ... Butcher might as well be prescribing small, consistent doses of arsenic.

They are only a few things you need to learn to be a writer: plot, character, style and audience. But these things are complex, nuanced and you need to know them well enough to look at a work (even your own work) and determine where it succeeds and fails on each of these points.

Some people understand 1 or more of these aspects implicitly, the way most people understand facial expressions without knowing the details of why. If you aren't that lucky you have to learn them the hard way.

And I don't think you can learn style (for example) by writing and writing if don't understand style. You've got to pick style apart and learn the thousands of rules that govern style. And you have to keep picking at style until you can reliably look at your own work and see the problems with style.

Posts: 222 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
History
Member
Member # 9213

 - posted      Profile for History   Email History         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LDWriter2:
Thank you for the comment.


quote:
Originally posted by History:
Keep with it LD. I note on the WOTF forum, you have been published in Strange New Worlds 10. You must have done something right.

For a very short period of time I did something right--what six or more years ago.

My first HM at WotF came out of the batch of stories I did around that time, as did another two or three other HMs, later I received a personal note from JJA on one of those and another story sent to SNW was good enough to get in but they could only take one story at a time. Then I forgot how to write, or lost my voice or something because it's been nothing since. Well, can't say nothing but very little. One story made it to the last round for one e-zine--New Myth maybe--and I got one HM for a mini contest at onthepremises.com, one last HM from WotF. Nothing else has been even close. Still stuck on barely good at the best like I have been for five years.

LD,
My first two pieces of short (flash) fiction (after completing my The Kabbalist novel) sold in 2010 in a mere matter of days to the first venue I submitted them. I thought, "That was easy."
Haven't sold a thing since. [Wink]

Success breeds...the expectation for success.
However, when one then learns how fickle success can be, this can naturally lead to self-doubt and frustration, even despair.
Don't let it.

What you decry in self-flagellation is what I've also heard from both established authors and pro-publishing WOTF winners with whom I correspond.

Don't be duped by success or the vagaries of the subjective tastes of the market (esp. slushpile readers--many of whom I believe are younger in age than some of my jackets and shirts, though this may suggest I need buy new clothes). [Wink]

We all desire a readership, and many may desire to make writing a paying career. However, I still believe we should write because this is what we do--and enjoy. If a tree falls in the woods, it still makes a sound even if no one hears it.
Though I suspect this may not be comforting if one believes "the sale" alone proves you are an artist.

Keep writing what brings you pleasure.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob

Posts: 1475 | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
History
Member
Member # 9213

 - posted      Profile for History   Email History         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by snapper:
How did get such privledged informationlike that, Doctor Bob? Have you received another finalist notification? Or do you and Ms Joni just keep in touch to chew the fat on a regular basis?

curious.

She said she likes me better than you.
.
.
.
.
.
okay, no she didn't [Wink]

She's kind. I corresponded with her and asked when a decison will be made regarding when or if any (of the very many) non-winning Finalist stories she's holding will be chosen as a filler for Vol. 30 (yours and mine have been held for nearly a year, I believe; and they're getting dusty).

She kindly answered and provided the information I shared above.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob

Posts: 1475 | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
History
Member
Member # 9213

 - posted      Profile for History   Email History         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RyanB:
[...And I don't think you can learn style (for example) by writing and writing if don't understand style. You've got to pick style apart and learn the thousands of rules that govern style. And you have to keep picking at style until you can reliably look at your own work and see the problems with style.

Sometimes I thinks and writes, but mostly I just writes. [Smile]
Posts: 1475 | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RyanB
Member
Member # 10008

 - posted      Profile for RyanB   Email RyanB         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by History:
quote:
Originally posted by RyanB:
[...And I don't think you can learn style (for example) by writing and writing if don't understand style. You've got to pick style apart and learn the thousands of rules that govern style. And you have to keep picking at style until you can reliably look at your own work and see the problems with style.

Sometimes I thinks and writes, but mostly I just writes. [Smile]
That's a good approach, but when you get done writing (the first draft) you should read what you've written and think.
Posts: 222 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
History
Member
Member # 9213

 - posted      Profile for History   Email History         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RyanB:
That's a good approach, but when you get done writing (the first draft) you should read what you've written and think.

Different puppy.
I do outline and revise, for example (exponentially far more than Heilein's "Third Rule of Writing" recommends); but I do not obsess (or recommend) "pick(ing) style apart and learn(ing) the thousands of rules that govern style", etc. At least it is not a method for me. If it is for you, well, G-d bless. Go for it.

I "picked" apart a frog in biology lab (and a human being in anatomy lab, ftm) and learned all their internal parts and how they fit together. However I knew, even then, that this would not permit me to create a frog or a human being nor would it permit me to grasp the wonder and beauty of what they were when living.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob


P.S. FYI--Heinlein's Rules for Writing: http://www.sfwriter.com/ow05.htm

Posts: 1475 | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RyanB
Member
Member # 10008

 - posted      Profile for RyanB   Email RyanB         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by History:
but I do not obsess (or recommend) "pick(ing) style apart and learn(ing) the thousands of rules that govern style", etc. At least it is not a method for me. If it is for you, well, G-d bless. Go for it.

Some context has been lost here.

I've read just one of your works and that was enough for me to confidently say that you "understand" style and there's no reason for you pick apart style any more than I need to pick apart the combinations of facial muscle movements that mean someone was suspicious of something I just said.

I'm talking about the person (BTW, this is absolutely NOT about you, Louis) that's written dozens of stories that fail on style and they don't know their stories are failing on style, much less why.

What do you suggest that person should do? stay confident and just keep writing?

Posts: 222 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
History
Member
Member # 9213

 - posted      Profile for History   Email History         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Point taken, RyanB.
And your question is poignant.
Can "style" be taught?

Here I need concede that one can practice emulating style. Perhaps all tyro writers are inspired to do so.

I first began (as a middle-schooler) seeking to emulate Ray Bradbury whose "style" amazed me. The young H.P. Lovecraft sought to emulate Lord Dunsany, and many authors inturn sought to emulate HPL. Many emulated Robert E Howard's sword and sorcery stories (e.g. Conan), and others the epic fantasy of JRR Tolkien. And many have had professional success in this and continued from there to evolve their own personal "style" (e.g. Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, Brian Lumley, Ramsey Campbell, Stephen Donaldson, etc. etc.).

I think genre reading in the field you wish to write is the best school. There I concur one should "pick" what one fines most inspiring. I aspire to the literary gift with words and command of language of Michael Chabon and Mark Helprin (I've a long way to go) but love the simple tales of wonder of the classic fantasists with my own love of history, society/culture, religion, and ethics.

What textbook can teach this?

Of course, on reflection, you may mean the "elements of style" in regard to the mechamics of grammar and sentence crafting--and all I've shared in the preceding is completely off-base. [Wink] And I'd need apologize and concur with you completelt that, in this circumstance, studying Strunk and White or other texts ] http://www.amazon.com/The-Elements-Style-Fourth-Edition/dp/020530902X ] on the subject is a must.

It may be I am mixing Style with Voice, and this is where my confusion lies. But I am not alone, it seems (though even these definitions appear loosely connected to the "style" discussed in Strunk and White):

http://writingreflections.com/writingwithpurpose/?p=1051

http://wordznerd.wordpress.com/2013/08/01/style-versus-voice-in-writing/

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-difference-between-voice-style-creative-456130.html?cat=49

http://www.blogworld.com/2012/07/07/voice-versus-style-whats-the-difference-and-why-should-bloggers-care/

http://romanceuniversity.org/2010/08/13/voice-vs-style/

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob

Posts: 1475 | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RyanB
Member
Member # 10008

 - posted      Profile for RyanB   Email RyanB         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm using the word "style" very broadly. DF said that some people have a "wooden ear."

It's hard to describe. Why are some (grammatically correct) formations of words enjoyable and others aren't? Why are some faces deemed attractive and others aren't?

Most people just know it when they see it (or hear it).

But there are "rules" governing these things, as complex and nuanced as they are, and most of us have them internalized in our brains somehow. We learned them in our formative years from the people we grew up with or got them with our DNA.

I might have went off the tracks there.

I think the facial expression analogy is a good one. I didn't even know until recently there were people who couldn't read facial expressions and then even later that some learn this later in life. It must be incredibly difficult. And yet most of us were pretty good at it by the time we were 4 years old. Of course, we never stop learning it either.

Since these things are so complex, we tend to thing of them as "something you have or you don't." And yet, all of this processing goes on in your brain and thus it must consist of "rules."

And people can learn them by processes other than the intuitive one the rest of us used.

Posts: 222 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Style, what is this ungainly beast? Mechanical style is a compilation of the standardized mannerisms and principles of a language's spoken or written expression so that listening or speaking, reading or writing, or otherwise expressed communication is easily understood.

Many writers and readers mean mechanical style when they say "style."

What then is a common consensus term for the artistic flair for using language? Broadly, discourse is the overarching method respecting decorum: suiting one's words to the subject matter and to each other, the opportune occasion, and the audience. That's too broad of a definition and term for many sensibilities.

What then might be closer to the mark? Aesthetic? That one works for me. Although "aesthetic" may be equally overly broad, since aesthetic might include individualized choice of genre, event, character, setting, milieu as well as a narrator or character voice's discourse, narrative point of view, message and moral, belief and value system, ad infintum.

In simple terms, an aesthetic is the sum of self-imposed artistic choices a writer decides and applies. Structural considerations, beginning with mechanical style but also organizing principles like plot, are parallel to but distinct from aesthetics.

Posts: 5173 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LDWriter2
Member
Member # 9148

 - posted      Profile for LDWriter2   Email LDWriter2         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by History:

My first two pieces of short (flash) fiction (after completing my The Kabbalist novel) sold in 2010 in a mere matter of days to the first venue I submitted them. I thought, "That was easy."
Haven't sold a thing since. [Wink]

Success breeds...the expectation for success.
However, when one then learns how fickle success can be, this can naturally lead to self-doubt and frustration, even despair.
Don't let it.

What you decry in self-flagellation is what I've also heard from both established authors and pro-publishing WOTF winners with whom I correspond.

Don't be duped by success or the vagaries of the subjective tastes of the market (esp. slushpile readers--many of whom I believe are younger in age than some of my jackets and shirts, though this may suggest I need buy new clothes). [Wink]

We all desire a readership, and many may desire to make writing a paying career. However, I still believe we should write because this is what we do--and enjoy. If a tree falls in the woods, it still makes a sound even if no one hears it.
Though I suspect this may not be comforting if one believes "the sale" alone proves you are an artist.

Keep writing what brings you pleasure.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob [/QB]

I realized I never responded to this note, even though I wanted to.

You do have a point but at the same time I'm not sure if it changes things that much. The end result is still the same. No sign of any improvement in my writing.

Actually, even though a sale would be great what want more is-as I just said-some sign that I am getting better. If David at WotF had given my last story a HM, that would not have been so disappointing. Or if they guys at F&SF would send me the third level rejection, or better still a personal note, instead of saying my story couldn't grab their attentions most of the time, I wouldn't feel so bad.

One or two critiguers have stated they thought that story they did was one of my better ones but other than that there is no evidence I am writing better. Which is why I keep saying I am stuck on the same level, maybe at the bottom of good probably just on the border between good and the level below it.

Posts: 5240 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
snapper
Member
Member # 7299

 - posted      Profile for snapper   Email snapper         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So did anyone receive bad news this week? Are we all still alive? Good.
Posts: 3072 | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2