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I agreed with OSC on something! *giggles* I should probably mark it on the calendar and celebrate it as a holiday. I'm referring to this article (the Sexism part):
Seriously, I'm usually puzzled by his taste in movies, and generally avoid the political discussions (When people ask me if I'm conservative or liberal, or Democrat/Republican, I usually describe my political leanings by sticking my fingers in my ears and humming. I mean, I take WAAAAAY too long just to pick out shampoo. I try to become reasonably informed before elections. I vote. Then I spend the rest of time praying that JackAss A will screw with my life less than Jackass B. Sort of like the psychological phenomenon known as Learned Helplessness translated to politica terms. But I digress. )
Men can't win. They can't. Someone will be pissed at them whatever they do. I'll quote to make this easier...
quote: On E.R. last Thursday the writers ruined an otherwise pretty good episode, because you know what? I have a hard time enjoying mean-spirited male-bashing.
It came along with a double standard so egregious that even the most deliberately-blind politically correct ideologue would have to admit that I'm right about this.
You see, there's this group of Catholic school girls who chase after a flasher who always runs off before the police can get there. They beat him up and he winds up in the hospital -- at the same time as one of the girls who pounded on him.
In another plotline, a pervert hits on Sherry Stringfield's character. It seems he has a thing about hugging pregnant women. When her boyfriend (naturally, this being the zero decade -- the zips -- they aren't married or even engaged) comes out of the restroom and the pervert persists, the boyfriend decks him.
Naturally, the Catholic girls are heroes for beating up a pervert -- in fact, the writers loved their actions so much they got to do it again before the end of the show. But the boyfriend was a typical idiotic male lout for hitting the guy. Sure, he thought he was protecting her (rather the way the Catholic girls had wanted the police to protect them), but because the pervert threatened to sue, the only way to pacify him was to let him hug Stringfield.
So all the women in the E.R., including Stringfield, blamed him for the fact that she "had" to give in to the pervert's demand. And the writers had him tag along after her, whining for forgiveness, completely humiliated. "Baby, please, I am sorry. Listen, please, come on, don't be like that. Who knew that guy was such a wack?"
And as they go out the door, still begging, he says, "How does a guy like that get to be such a freak?"
"Born with a Y chromosome?" answers Stringfield.
"Oh, so all men are twisted?"
"You said it."
"You hate men?"
"If it weren't for sperm and heavy lifting, you'd all be useless."
My, how funny.
See what the message is? Women can be as violent as they like, and whatever man they pulverize deserves it. But if a man dares to violently defend the woman who says she loves him, then he's a complete fool. Not only that, the boyfriend is not only blamed for what he did, he is also blamed, as a "man," for what the pervert did.
In fact, it seems that whatever a man does, it's wrong. Unless it's exactly what a woman needed him to guess that she wanted him to do.
Truth be told, I DID laugh when I read the "sperm and heavy lifting" remark. I know that to a lot of women, that sort of thing is funny because it seems true. It doesn't seem true to me in my experience, but I still found myself amused by it.
That really scares me, because I have SONS-- two sweet little boys who love me and their daddy and each other (despite the odd bedtime mooning, or the like). These are sensitive kids who get a lot of 'girl power' messages in the media, even though we don't have cable or watch TV (other than PBS or the occassional WB cartoon) unless we are visiting relatives or something.
Why is it that some women want to paint all men as brutes? Nature made them bigger and stronger, not just so women could ogle them but so they could defend and protect their families. That's the way things should be, IMO.
I have nothing against women being able to protect themselves. I just started kickboxing, and I love it. I like to see stories where femmes kick butt-- I was a Buffy fan, and I'd even sneak to watch Charlies Angels or Wonder Woman as a kid.
But that doesn't mean that men shouldn't be men. Yes, some men are unnecessarily violent, some men are rapists or murderers. But a REAL man-- like my wonderful Ron-- use their size and strength to defend the weak, protect their families and store their favorite snacks on the top shelf where no one else can reach them. The occassional heavy lifting or yardwork is a plus, but in no way a measure of their manhood.
When society shows kids crap like that bit on ER, what can it do but make boys defensive, and angry? Why can't men and women value each other for their strengths, instead of mocking percieved deficiencies? If we work together, we compliment each other so well.
It's unfair to the kind, strong men out there who really are good men, and it is also unfair to the next generation of men and women. The temptation is there (I felt it when I was still a sweet young thang) for girls to treat boys like a lifestyle accessory instead of a potential partner in life. It's just so twisted and insidious.
And it really pisses me off.
Some of you have read some of the novel I'm working on, but this kind of thing is central to the frustrations that prompted me to start the story. Such casual sexism only leads BOTH sides into underestimating the other half of the world's population.
I want to know what you guys think. Have you ever faced sexism like that (men or women)?
Once back in college, this idiot I knew (WenchCon I attendees may remember my E. Roy stories) was going on and on about calling the Civil War the War Between the States or not. Now, he obviously had a very thin grasp of the debate, having read a few articles on the subject. That is the sort of potato potahto argument that has always really annoyed me. I was always much mor interested in the details of history (or literature, even) than the labels people come up with to stick on them. Yes, I understood the implications of the different titles, but to me the bruhaha only served to continue the hostilities it described (certainly in a small way, but a continuation nonetheless).
So I finally called him on it, basically saying the same thing I just wrote. He reponded, "Well, what would you like to talk about, Olivia? Buy anything interesting at the store today?"
People laughed!! I couldn't believe it. I was a frugal girl. I hadn't done any 'shopping' in the girly-girl sense in my life. But I was pretty and perky-looking and active socially, so I must be a mall-stomping pinhead. Gggggrrrrrrr! I got the last laugh when they posted the names of all the 4.0's that first semester, though. I was on it, and Eroy was on academic probation.
Anyone else want to comment, share a story or just vent?
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Funny how this really hits home when you're Mom to a boy.
That thing you said in the other thread about how single moms of boys tend to get married oftener than single moms of girls... That felt true. I know that part of my eagerness to get remarried was so my son could have a good male rolemodel. It takes all my energy to be a good woman, so I don't even pretend to be a good man. Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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You know, this kind of thing is one of the reasons I get very upset with my mom and, by extension, many self-identified feminists. See, I think of myself as a feminist, because I believe that women are equal and deserve equal rights, and I conduct my life accordingly. I probably get this attitude from my mom, who is a very strong woman and managed to do a good job raising me and my brother alone while still owning and operating her own business. But very often I feel like her attitudes are extremely anti-male and the older I get the more this bothers me.
I understand where it comes from, because I know that she has had a lot of obstacles as a woman who owns a business. She has told me several times about how hard it was for her to get her first business loan, despite the fact that she is very good at what she does (and she is). I can understand how this would cause a certain amount of bitterness. And I don't believe that even today women really are on an equal footing with men, although I do think things are getting better. But what she and, in my opinion, rather a lot of "feminists" fail to internalize, to really believe and live, is that advancing your own cause is not the same as antagonizing the opposing side. Making it about "sides" in the first place is just not the right way to go.
This is one of my hot button issues, if you couldn't guess.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I agree with saxon75, and it's one of the main benefits of hatrack in my opinion, that we can hang out with folks and most the time it doesn't matter what gender they are.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Bull. Men in general suck. There are a few men, who as individuals, don't suck.
But Card makes it seem like everyone is bashing men all the time. I'd love to see a study where they compare/contrast the usage of bashing men vs. the usage of objectifying women/or making female cliché jokes.
Oh, and by the way, Sherry Stringfield's character married the guy in Vegas. When they got back, they got divorced and kept dating.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I don't think all men suck. There's the same variations in character as there are among all humans. I think male-bashing comes from a sense of vulnerability, and/or really, really crappy experiences.
But...
quote: I'd love to see a study where they compare/contrast the usage of bashing men vs. the usage of objectifying women/or making female cliché jokes.
I agree with this completely. There's too much of both.
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If I recall correctly, Kayla, you're an equal opportunity hater, no? So why spare the women the glory of your scorn? Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:I agree with this completely. There's too much of both.
kat, I think her point was that the amount of male-bashing would be way smaller than the amount of female objectification/cliche jokes, and (if I may extrapolate a bit) that therefore it's not significant. I have no data on the relative amounts, but I have noticed that TV commercials tend to portray men as incompetent or stupid at least as often as they portray women as sex objects.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I don't like male bashing any better than female bashing. To me both kinds of bashing denigrate both sexes.
Tv is often like that, though. It's often really offensive. I'm so much happier since I stopped watching it. Have I said that before? Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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Oh, don't get me wrong. Women, in general, suck, too.
I'm nothing if not equal opportunity.
And, I'd like to say for the record that I absolutely hate Everybody Loves Raymond. That show is nothing more than, "What idiotic thing did Raymond do this week?" Male bashing isn't cool. But men whining about being bashed is pathetic, too. It's that whole double standard I can't stand. They can dish it out for several millennia, but they can't take it for a couple of decades.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I hate that show, Kayla! It gets on my nerves. See, television is what sucks. It simplifies things. People are complicated! There's a whole spectrum of people out there! Burly men, butchy women, girly looking women who hate shopping, femmy men who love to shop. All types! But on most sitcoms you get stupid incompetent men like Raymond who won't spend time with their kids and their shrill wives whine constantly and say, "When will you fix this, that and the other, what are you doing hanging out with that girl? You never clean up after yourself." Which makes it seem like women are ANNOYING nagging, shrill obnoxious STREWS! Like that woman on Whatever that show is called with the fat guy and the skinny chick and the guy who's always yelling. She's a major irratating female dog! And her husband is dopey... Most men on television swing beer, watch sports for hours upon end and act like jackasses. Most women nag the men for sitting on the couch watching sports and drinking beer. It's television, it has NOTHING to do with real life. With real women and men. I'm TIRED of stereotypes. I don't even fit them. I hate shopping, I wear sloggy clothes. I PLAY VIDEO GAMES for crying out loud. Women on television NEVER play video games. They complain at the men about playing video games.
You have to admit that some of the complaining about men's antics (some men, not all!) is not so much as bashing, it's true. A lot of men, too many men act like brutish idiots thinking that THIS is what it means to be a man. Like on the Sopranos. Does Tony skank and cheat because all the men around him skank and cheat? Because he wants to prove that he is a man? Do men even HAVE to prove that? It's pretty obvious...
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My little brother is my reminder of how great guys can be. He's so cool. I'm going to get him to start posting in the forum so he can read this.
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You know, two shows that stand out in my mind are Yes, Dear and Still Standing. (BTW, Syn, the show you are thinking of is King of Queens.) On Yes, Dear, rather than it being nagging, shrill wife and dopey husbands, it's one dopey couple and one nagging couple. Both the women and the men screw up, both couples love their kids, both couples are occasionally right. It's a pretty balanced show. Still Standing has a dopey husband, and a nagging wife, but they admit that they are dopey and nagging and work together. They love their kids, but they aren't quite grow-up themselves. They are good parents, in a bad way.
Anyway, women are bashed at least as much as men, though I believe the women would actually come out on top if a study was done about who is actually bashed more. Women are an easier target because they've always been the target.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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This is true. Women seem to be seen as- Sex objects (I could find a lewder, colourful way to say that) Shrill nagging wives Obnoxious girlfriends
It's just annoying and insulting. Men and women should complain about it. They should say, I'm not going to put up with this anymore.
Like these magazines or Xmas and Mothers and Father's Day ads. Why is it assumed that only MEN like cool machines like MP3 players and Playstation 2s while women just want lacy silky dresses and washing machines? Drives me up a tree...
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Commercials are among the most un-PC things on televison. I guess the advertisers believe in the stereotypes, because they believe that's what sells.
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Here's another example- TV networks are ALWAYS trying to get the attention of males ages 18-35 thinking that they spend the largest amount of money on beer and gadgets. To try to attract them they put shows with the lowest common denominator on. Shows like The Help or Surreal Life. Now how sexist is this? Assuming that all young men LIKE trashy shows with cheap stupid women and inane plots! Even worse is assuming that women ages 18-35 don't buy gadgets or having spending power. Statistically, women buy more things for their families, right? I could be wrong about that. But why use such stupid tactics to gain audiences? It's so outmoded. They need to get with the program.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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My favorite is any commercial about cleaning a bathroom. Is it ever a man cleaning the toilet? Then not long ago I saw a commercial with a man cleaning a toilet. But I think there was some catch to it. Can't remember.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Yeah, his wife called up and said, "Did you clean the toilet?" And he says, yes dear and uses a disposable toilet brush that foams. You never see men mopping the floor and talking to bald men as they do it.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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If it helps, OSC also despises I Love Lucy for the gender bashing as well.
Kayla said:
quote:They can dish it out for several millennia, but they can't take it for a couple of decades.
I don't know about you, but I haven't been around for one millenium, let alone several. Men who are alive now are not responsible for the actions of the men that came before. They are responsible for their actions now, as are we women.
Male bashing is as gender racist and evil as telling a woman she can't be something because she is a girl. I would rather base my behavior on what is good and kind than getting even.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Commercials are among the most un-PC things on televison. I guess the advertisers believe in the stereotypes, because they believe that's what sells.
Given the gazillions of dollars that these advertizers make, I'd say that most of us are falling for it.
Posts: 1996 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I agree with just about everything you said, I have a boy too.
But mostly I say I love you because you reminded me of the E. Roy stories, and that is just priceless. Thank you for bringing them back to mind. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I'm completely on-board on the male-bashing element to our culture, but while I agree that radical feminists bear some of the blame for it, I think OSC is ignoring the biggest source of this feeling, especially in the media (TV) that he's talking about: Housewives.
The worst offenders for the "men can't do anything right and they are just bigger children and whatever women want is the right thing" on TV are sit-coms. Well, and commercials, but I'm sticking with sit-coms. The exemplar for this as far as I'm concerned is Home Improvement, although, from what I've been told, Everybody Loves Raymond is vying for the top spot. Feminists and the sort of career oriented women that people slightly to the right of OSC think are sinning against nature don't watch these shows. Let's face it, feminists are in something like year 60 of their humor strike. The target audience for these shows, the people who love them because of the anti-male stance that they take, are largely women who are either stay-at-home or have jobs that aren't of the fast-track, jet-setting type. You know, the sort of people who tend to be aggressively anti-feminist.
Humor of the sort that turns the powerful figure into a bumbling fool dependent on the subordinate figure has been around as long as one group was holding power over another. American culture has really latched onto it because it sells really well. If you want to really look into the sources of male-bashing on television, yes, feminists have their influence, but I think that of women who are still being oppressed (and I'm not trying to claim that all housewives are oppressed. I'm big into the feminism means choice idea.) by the patriarchal elements of our culture have an even stronger one.
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Of course, the shows that the yuppies watch aren't exactly overflowing with positive male role models either. NBC hasn't had a man worthy of the name on a sit-com, except maybe the non-flaming gay guy on Will and Grace, ever since Friends taught them that effeminate, bitchy men sell really well.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Um, I like you Mr.Squicky, and you make some valid points I think (though I have not sat through a sitcom other than the Simpsons or Futurama for literally years). But I just have to say, I HATE the term "Housewives". <cringe> I am not married to a @%#! HOUSE!
Plus, I am an educated woman-- I made great money when I was working, but I gave it up so that I could be there for my kids while they were small. It took some time, but I no-longer feel subordinated by that choice. It was our CHOICE, Ron's and mine. We didn't want to pay strangers to raise our kids, and if that meant giving up the biweekly manicures and chi-chi power suits, I'm okay with that, because my kids were more important. Thing is, if I had been happier or more ambitious with my carreer, Ron would probably have been the one to stay home. He wanted to, I think, but I hated my job and he knew I always wanted to write.
Anyway, I resent the stereotype, even though I know there wouldn't be stereotypes and cliches if they weren't true at least SOME of the time.
Belle, Thank you sweetie! I love you , too. How're the toes? I'll try to call you this weekend, okay?
Kayla, Syn, I sympathize completely with what you're saying. I just think the male-bashing only continues the antipathy between the genders. It doesn't help things.
I remember, for the longest time, thinking I was less than a woman because I had less than an A cup (until after the babies and the added poundage). I remember that story of the missionary woman who had prayed and prayed for blue eyes when she was a girl, but then when she was older, she was able to rescue children while wearing a veil, and blue eyes would have given her away as a foriegner.
For years I thought I'd have to impersonate a man at some point in 'God's plan for my life'. Heh. I was pretty. Guys wanted to get to know me or whatever, but I always felt deficient.
But when I had Robert, and breast fed him... It was just so miraculous to realize that my breasts were exactly as they were meant to be, doing what they were meant to do. (And Ron had always found them fascinating, though I had convinced myself his attentions were only construed to make me feel better. LOL. I was wrong. But I don't want to slip into TMI territory. )
I would love to live in a world where breasts are exalted for the pleasure and nourishment they give, and for the wonderful variety of shapes and sizes they come in. I hate to see something so beautiful depicted as a narrow ideal and plastered over bilboards to sell beer.
But I would also like to live in a world where young boys have some decent role models in popular culture. I don't see much TV, but I do rent some shows on DVD, so I have seen maybe the first 8 shows of the first season of Smallville. I think that the young Superman and his friends show the decency that I would like my sons to imitate. Standing up for the fat girl when somebody teases her, acting unselfishly to protect and rescue even those who are mean to them. (And Lex Luthor is really hot )
It's one reason I let my boys watch Princess Mononoke, even though it has violence and blood-- because Ashitaka uses his strength to help people, and his intellect to try to bring two sides of the conflict together. To see with eyes unclouded. I WANT my boys to admire Ashitaka.
I would like to live in a world where people are valued for their strengths, not dismissed as "Isn't that just like a man (or woman)!"
That said, Ron, the boys and I had a fun time at the zoo trying to figure out which Panda was the male. The boys assumed it was the one who scratched its butt for five minutes straight (and turned out they were right). Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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a) I agree with what you said about breasts. I think it is unfair that when it gets hot (in this culture) women still have to cover them up while men can run around topless. But that is the CA nudist coming out in me.
b)This is why we pretty much only watch Bravo, the BBC, the home improvement, history and discovery channels and sports on TV anymore.
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Yeah but isn't it even colder there in the winter than Chicago? I'm barely making it through the winters here. I'm actually wondering if I have SADD or something.
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You know, not nearly enough women take advantage of the equal opportunity topless laws. It gets pretty hot and really humid in southern ontario, lord knows I spend much of my time with my shirt off (much to the horror and chagrin of all, I'm sure). I just don't want all those poor women to suffer needlessly!
quote:Commercials are among the most un-PC things on televison. I guess the advertisers believe in the stereotypes, because they believe that's what sells.
quote:Assuming that all young men LIKE trashy shows with cheap stupid women and inane plots! Even worse is assuming that women ages 18-35 don't buy gadgets or having spending power.
There's a real chicken-and-egg problem here. On the one hand there's a very valid argument that things like commercials and product marketing shapes our cultural tendencies. That is, men are told they are supposed to like beer and gadgets and women are told they are supposed to like clothes and things for the home, and so both do.
The problem is that marketing is based on market research. Companies spend millions of dollars to try to find out who will buy their product before telling the advertising people how to make the commercials. Beer and gadget commercials are geared toward men because market research shows very conclusively that the overwhelming majority of beer and gadgetry is consumed by men. Moreover, the style of advertisement and the shows in which they are placed are also determined by market research. The Nielson company makes tons of money finding out who watches what shows. This is the driving force behind television: the demographics of the audience. So if commercials aimed at men are put in "trashy" shows, it's because it's been shown that lots of men watch those programs.
So, we are shaped by our media, but our media is shaped by us. It's quite the vicious cycle.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Seasonal Affective Disorder, I think. Something like that, but I don't know what the other D is for. Seasonal Affective Deppressive Disorder?
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Seasonal something depressive disorder.... ok mack what's the right ackronym then since I'm sure you know!
It's not so much that I'm mentally depressed is that physically my energy levels drop like in hibernation. And I'm always cold, to the point where I'm the butt of jokes at work. But I am that cold. Normally just putting my cold hand on somone's arm is enough to make them jump. I can't very well apologize for something that is just me.
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mack, I will try to email later, but about 1/2 an hour ago, I took two Benedryl and a Premarin in attempt to induce sleep, as I have a solid screaming Friday night at the ER ahead.
The antihistamines are working, and I don't think I'll make it upt he stairs. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Yeah but isn't it even colder there in the winter than Chicago?
According to USA Today (temps in °F) and this page (temps in °C), the avg temp in January in Toronto is between 30.2 °F and 15.8 °F, while the avg temp in January in Chicago is between 29 °F and 15 °F.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Banna, I’ve always seen it as SAD – Seasonal Affective Disorder. And mine pretty much went away after I got a Sunrise alarm clock. Marvelous device – the lamp starts fading up ½ hour before the alarm goes off, so when it does beep your room is at full brightness and your body thinks it’s morning, even when the real sun isn’t due for another three hours (or isn’t planning on making an appearance at all). Full spectrum lighting helps too.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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