posted
I'm interested in what everyone thinks about the differences and similarities of faith vs religion.
My take is that religion is the outward expression of faith.
Those that reap security from the outward acceptance of religious protocol but feel no connection to the God sanctified by the particular religion they are practicing don't qualify (in my book) for truly practicing a religion. They are engaged in a social club that they find comforting.
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posted
This is kind of like drinking vs. drunkeness. Is there really any reason to drink besides getting drunk? Are there folks who actually like the flavor? This is what I always wonder... are there folks who actually like going to church?
I know there are folks who may be there for their family. I dunno.
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posted
So Pooka, which is which? I'm a homebrewer, I happen to love the taste of good beer, but I hate being drunk. If you were to equate one with the other what would it be? I personally would rather profess to have faith but no religion rather than no faith but (practice) a religion.
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posted
I've drunk for the purpose of intoxication like once in the last two years; of course we like the flavor (Bud Light wankers need not apply).
On a completely separate note, yes, I've found I enjoy going to (some) religious events whose actual spiritual contents I find ridiculous.
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posted
I would say that the vast majority of people participating in religious observances do so for the sake of the observance and not for the sake of the religion itself. Witness, for example, the enormous popularity of those Easter and Christmas Eve services that concentrate on carols and chorales.
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posted
But to actively disbelieve it? There's a difference between just being a slacker and fundamentally disagreeing with something.
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posted
I grew up in a family that was nonpracticing christian. Meaning, we "celebrated" christian holidays like christmas and easter, but never inside a church.
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posted
I think that religion is pointless. "Religion" to me means mindless ritualism, rules and guidelines. Rather, faith should reflect in one's relationship to their deity rather than a religion. The word "religious" has become twisted to depict uptight, hypocritical, non-committal parishoners who have faith but do not live it outside of church. Posts: 165 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
"Tom, So you would maintain that many people would profess to be religious but have no faith?"
Yep. Not only that, I maintain that many people profess to be religious but know next to nothing about the tenets of the religion to which they claim to belong.
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posted
I can't really argue with this Tom. My point is that faith dictates your religious affiliation. I can't reconcile a difference between your faith and your professed religion.
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quote:Not only that, I maintain that many people profess to be religious but know next to nothing about the tenets of the religion to which they claim to belong.
Impossible, because a religion is just whatever those who belong to it think it is.
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posted
"My point is that faith dictates your religious affiliation."
Again, you would be well-advised to talk to American Catholics, Culture Mormons, or atheist Jews about this one. Or any Methodist who's moved to a new city and decided to go to the Lutheran church because they liked the people and/or facilities better.
I’ll give you “many.” If you’d said “most” I’d have argued, but I have to agree with “many.”
And you can add people who want to be married in the church because they like the idea of it, but think of the building and the clergy as wedding accessories. Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Ok, Paul so regardless of your personal beliefs your religion will always be Jewish? I'm not ridiculing here I'm trying to clarify
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That thread seems to misuse the term, religion. You are not a part of a religion just by going to religious ceremonies of a given sort.
Maybe, though, to Paul "Jewish" doesn't imply a belief in God - like how "Christian" can mean different things to different Christian denominations.
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posted
Tres- Wrong. Jewish does imply a belief in god, but doesn't mandate it.
Punwit- Yes. I'm jewish by birth, and by judaic law, and by culture, and by the ceremonies I engage in, which include, but are not limited to, observation of all major holidays, keeping many of the dietary laws, saying the shabbat blessings and lighting the candles every week, and observing a good portion of the 613 commandments.
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posted
Tom, I still maintain that if you proclaim that you have no faith in God that assigning a religious appellation to yourself that includes a belief in God is somewhat (to be kind) silly. There may be some rules regarding Judaism that I am unfamiliar with but that doesn't change my perception of faith and religion. It does influence the way I interpret Pauls use of the term tho. So considering Pauls viewpoint I was wrong.
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posted
Judaism doesn't require a belief in God? I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. I'm trying to figure out how you can be the chosen people if there's no one choosing.
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posted
I'm thinking that the fundamental difference here is the definition of religion. I would be sincerely appreciative if Paul or any one else that defines their faith as seperate from their religion would define both and elucidate how they are different. I've already provided an example. To me, faith is the internal commitment associated with the external practice of a specific religion.
I'll be waIting.
Dang I was missing an eye. No wonder eye had a hard time seeing this arguement
posted
If religion is nothing more than a club, then why is it any statement to call snowboarding a religion? The devotion is obviously more what you are calling faith. But I don't know any snowboarders who would say it is a great way to spend time by calling it a "Faith".
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quote: To me, faith is the internal commitment associated with the external practice of a specific religion.
This does seem a bit idealistic. Paul is by no means the first person I've "met" who is Jewish and an Atheist. Atheist Mormons are a bit more rare, but seem to exist. I was one, for a while. That is, I felt it impossible that the God being described in Church existed. This was not what I would call agnosticism, in terms of having a sense that there is a benevolent intentionality in the universe that some might call God.
So I guess the more relevant question is not "What is faith" but "What is Atheism".
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posted
I KNOW this site has many educated religious people. I REALLY want to to know what the party line is concerning faith and religion. Are they flip sides of a coin or are they completely seperate ideas. C'mon I know you guys are there.
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posted
Jewish can describe more than just your religious affiliation. If I told you I was a christian atheist what would your reaction be?
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posted
To answer your earlier question, my reaction would be ho-hum, because such people are pretty common.
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You and I aren't so different. I'm trying to make a point that I think you share and you aren't helping me. Not that you should but I think our veiwpoints are similar.
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posted
In case this helps... a thread on "atheism as religion" from a few months ago. There was a great deal of discussion on a definition of religion that would not include atheism.
Anecdotally, I have many friends who characterize themselves as both Jewish and atheist. I even have one atheist Jewish friend who keeps kosher. I believe she told me that it's to remember the history, suffering, and life of the Jews before her.
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posted
"Judaism doesn't require a belief in God? I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. I'm trying to figure out how you can be the chosen people if there's no one choosing."
It does, but it doesn't. The first commandment, obviously, is rather important to judaism. On the other hand, there are laws concerning who is and who is not jewish... and that IS religion, not just culture.
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posted
[nb: assuming they still wipe threads older than 12 months, I don't think any statement of my religious beliefs appears on these forums]
Ok, let's back up further. The trouble with defining words like "religion" is to be inclusive without losing meaning. Moreover, you can't make a decision and say "that's that" because it's a term that (1) a lot of people want to be identified with who will inevitably hold beliefs just outside your boundaries (2) a lot of people who are inside your boundaries will object to its expansion.
Some resultant conflicts are straightforward, like Lutherans not wanting to accept that Gnostics self-identify as Christian. But it also leads to problematic comparisons even from a neutral POV: atheistic Judaism and, say, Freemasonry are both belief systems that value tradition, culture, moral structures, fellowship among members, etc. but one claims to be a religion and the other does not. Is it possible that both are correct?
Frankly, I don't find the question very interesting. The only people truly interested in its semantics are probably nonprofit tax lawyers. If you think I'm being too dismissive, I'm just the wrong person to ask.
The original religion vs. faith question has more facets, though. Limiting ourselves to religions whose commonly-accepted tenets require some articles of faith, what does it mean for nonbelievers to identify themselves with them? I'm not even sure how I'd answer kat's first question myself, because I think Tom makes a category mistake -- "I would say that the vast majority of people participating in religious observances do so for the sake of the observance and not for the sake of the religion itself" -- the religion is part of the observance, even in the most "sola fide" Protestant circles. This is why notions of identity are the subject of good fiction and long theses.
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posted
Punwit, what do you mean by "feeling a connection to God"? My first reaction would be to say that I feel no such connection. But that's not the same as "believing in God".
(I believe in Canada, but feel no connection to it.)
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posted
My point was that I have a hard time reconciling a difference between faith and religion. On another thread a poster made a distinction between his faith and his religion. His faith was atheism and his religion was jewish. I questioned that. As I said when I started this thread I believe that faith is internal while religion is the outward manifestation of faith.
Perhaps the term connection to God was not the perfect way to phrase it. In my opinion if you have no belief in God, then proclaiming yourself as a practitioner of a religion that worships him seems oxymoronic.
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I suppose there's no further point in me cluttering up the thread, then. I just notice that a lot of people have begun talking about religious faith in emotional terms--I feel this, I feel that. Bah.
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posted
I do agree it's kind of weird to include Judaism on a list of religions that don't require faith. But I'm not sure there's any way to avoid it.
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posted
"On another thread a poster made a distinction between his faith and his religion. His faith was atheism and his religion was jewish....As I said when I started this thread I believe that faith is internal while religion is the outward manifestation of faith."
Well, then, there's no conflict. He has no internal faith, but he chooses to outwardly manifest a religion of a given internal faith that he doesn't actually possess.
I would argue, based on my own experiences and observations, that this is remarkably common in America.
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posted
Tom, are you using "American Catholics" to refer to some specific subset of Catholics in America, or to refer to all of them. If the former, I haven't heard the term used that way. If the latter, I think some qualifier is called for as in your references to Culture Mormons and atheist Jews. There are a LOT of incredibly devout Catholics in this country.
posted
*nod* But even among the really incredibly devout Catholics in this country, the number who genuinely believe (or are aware of) all Catholic dogma is vanishingly small.
Such a minority does exist. But I wouldn't even include a majority of Catholic clergy in its number.
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Or any Methodist who's moved to a new city and decided to go to the Lutheran church because they liked the people and/or facilities better.
