quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: This infuriates me whenever I hear it. ...My reaction is based on the disgust of the idea of entitlement that drives people to not tip, because it invariably leads to them tipping lower as a habit.
What infuriates me is the restaurant owner who feels entitled to take a huge markup on the food his or her establishment serves and then feels entitled to make his or her customers pay his waitstaff's wages so that he or she doesn't have to do so.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: So instead of arguing in favor of forcing consumers to pay a 20% tip, why not argue in favor of forcing employers to pay a minimum wage?
I've worked in sales (and to a lesser extent customer service) my entire life, and the idea that the salesperson is ENTITLED (to turn your word around) to higher pay because they have kids to feed is downright laughable. I've typically made a crap wage with a commission, and commission is the ONLY way I sell. You have a bad day? You don't get paid that day, and that's the way it should be. Your job, as a waiter and as a salesperson is to never have a bad day. Ever. And if you do, your pay gets docked accordingly. You don't like it? Find another industry to work in. The line that waiting is the standard way for unskilled laborers to make enough money to support a family is a crock.
Your idea of fair is to complain to a manager for terrible service instead of docking a tip? It's brutally obvious you've never worked in the service industry; instead of leading to lower wages, that leads to lost jobs. How will the kids eat when mommy or daddy gets fired?
Try running a business, where you don't GET a wage and your entire income is based on salesmanship and quality service. Then revisit this issue.
You complain about people losing a job in a service industry, and then you talk about running a business? Two completely different things, since the food service industry is not modeled the same as a product or trade services model. Don't question my credentials right after you have made absurd equivocations.
The point is that no one is entitled to anything. However, the point of gratuity is not to pay for something someone is entitled to. But let's take your ridiculous equivocation and put it in proper context. A food server, or wait-staff, are not an employee of the restaurant in the same manner as a chef or cook. The wait-staff is working commission, but unlike a sales commission a food server gets commission for mitigating between the chef or cook and the customer for the restaurant. You tip food servers to pay for the convenience of having someone order, track, and deliver your food to your table. They are playing the part of a middle-man in the dealing between the customer and the restaurant, but the customer is not there to be convinced to eat there. The customer who has been seated has already decided to eat there. There are absolutely responsibilities for the server in attending the customer's needs. However, the final check you get at the end of the meal is not being paid to the server, it is being paid to the restaurant.
Yes, if a person repeatedly provides poor service, they are going to get fired and not make any more money from that position. Employment laws in most states do not allow for a business to fire an employee without providing a modicum of justification, and if you have such an inflated sense of importance that you believe your complaint is worth that much weight- "yes, sir, ersomniac was displeased with the service, so you must be fired" -then this discussion is really going to go nowhere. Most businesses have a requirement of at least two, but usually three, instances of poor performance with a repremand after the first instance (and the second, if applicable). If a person is a repeatedly poor service person, then they should reevaluate their place in such an environment. So, to answer your challenge of running a business, it is fairly obvious you have never had to deal with having employees or you would have never made such a poor argument. Things don't work the way your scenario plays out unless there is a chronic problem, at which point that becomes an issue between the restaurant and the server. Not paying a tip results in the poor service never coming to the attention of the restaurant, which means you are allowing the problem to continue instead of doing something positive. So, unless you are actually telling the food server why you are not tipping or tipping so poorly, then you are just shrugging off the behavior to others.
The point is that people who even have to consider whether to tip are not are displaying a parsimonious self-righteousnesness. Whether they did a poor job or spectacular job, they are still doing a job. Stiffing them on the check is not going to stop it, and is one of those dozens of little selfish habits that people have that propagates the inflated sense of entitlement in popular culture.
Tom, "serve yourself" restaurants would never work in anything but the niches where they already exist. The selection of the dishes would become stunted, and any art to food preparation would be essentially be relegated only to the wealthy and a few street vendors. We already have all-you-can-eat buffets for the people who don't care about being able to specify exactly how they want their meal prepared for themselves. We already have fast food joints for a quick and easy grab-and-go meal. Just because you consider yourself happy enough, smart enough, savvy enough, or whatever enough to prefer such a model doesn't necessarily make it the most pragmatic.
quote:Originally posted by littlemissattitude: What infuriates me is the restaurant owner who feels entitled to take a huge markup on the food his or her establishment serves and then feels entitled to make his or her customers pay his waitstaff's wages so that he or she doesn't have to do so.
That kind of ticks me off, too. Stiffing the food servers is not going to scratch that itch.
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Speaking as one who once waited tables (I worked for the Cracker Barrel), I have to say, that quality of service is not represented by tips. Some of the worst members of our waitstaff made the largest tips. (Men also make better money than women, go figure.) The restaurant paid me $2.18/hr, base salary. Essentially, as someone who actually declared all of my tips, I made just enough money from the restaurant to cover my taxes on what I had earned plus about enough for a lunch at McDonalds every week.
On a Saturday or a Sunday I could earn about $10/hour in tips so I tried to work 12 hour shifts on both days whenever possible. I made the majority of my money on the weekends. If I worked both Sat. and Sun. 12 hours both days, I walked away with approximately $240, sometimes more, sometimes less. Monday thru Thursday were crummy days to work, I often left the restaurant with as little as $20 in my pocket. Friday nights could go either way. If it was a holiday weekend we'd make good money, if not it was up for grabs. So, if you assume that I worked Saturday and Sunday plus a couple more days a week, I was earning approximately $300/week after tax, totalling at $1200/month.
In a way though, I was lucky. At the Cracker Barrel, wait staff don't carry a register in their apron. For those who have never waited a table let me clarify. At most restaurants (pretty much any place where a member of the wait staff picks the check up from the table, runs the card or gives you your change) the server carries a register in their apron. At the end of the night the manager prints out a receipt and says, "You sold $xxx.xx of food today, pay up." The server has to hand over receipts and cash totalling that amount. Anything left over is theirs. That means that if someone leaves without paying, the server pays for it out of their tips. I also didn't have to tip out the hostess or the bar. Many restaurants also employ tip sharing, the bartender and host/hostess get a percentage of each servers tips.
I had regulars that often tipped well and asked to be seated in my section. There were people who I could order for before they sat at the table. There were other regulars I hated, people who never tipped, no matter how hard you worked for them.
$1200 per month isn't much money, even for a single woman with a roommate. Servers don't make enough money, and if a restaurant isn't going to pay their servers minimum wage before tips then gratuity should be included in their checks.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Don't know if anyone's mentioned it, but the restaurant I worked at for 2 years is an Italian chain called Fazoli's (in between fast food and sit-down). They bring around free breadsticks and USED to have 2 runners bring food to all the tables--very hectic.
Just when I started, they had changed to the buzzer system, where guests order up front (fast-food style) and get buzzed when their food's ready. The results were incredibly streamlined and much more guest-friendly. Instead of having two runners moving frantically around the dining area, the two runners became "service leaders" (waiters without the title) which actually improved the restaurant's image (allowing corporate to jack up prices, etc.)
Forced tipping is criminal.
Even more criminal though--people who tip less than 15%
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Yes, if a person repeatedly provides poor service, they are going to get fired and not make any more money from that position. Employment laws in most states do not allow for a business to fire an employee without providing a modicum of justification, and if you have such an inflated sense of importance that you believe your complaint is worth that much weight- "yes, sir, ersomniac was displeased with the service, so you must be fired" -then this discussion is really going to go nowhere.
Wow, here in South Carolina (and in Virginia where I lived previously) we have At Will Employment. You can be fired at anytime, no reason provided.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: Forced tipping is criminal.
Not really. Lots of really expensive restaurants include gratuity here in the US. In most countries in Europe, gratuity is included in the check and servers expect you to leave them money over and above the specified amount.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:The point is that no one is entitled to anything. However, the point of gratuity is not to pay for something someone is entitled to. But let's take your ridiculous equivocation and put it in proper context. A food server, or wait-staff, are not an employee of the restaurant in the same manner as a chef or cook. The wait-staff is working commission, but unlike a sales commission a food server gets commission for mitigating between the chef or cook and the customer for the restaurant. You tip food servers to pay for the convenience of having someone order, track, and deliver your food to your table. They are playing the part of a middle-man in the dealing between the customer and the restaurant, but the customer is not there to be convinced to eat there. The customer who has been seated has already decided to eat there. There are absolutely responsibilities for the server in attending the customer's needs. However, the final check you get at the end of the meal is not being paid to the server, it is being paid to the restaurant.
Do you understand the commissioned salesman model? I don't think you do, at all, since you dodged my repeated comparisons to sales, choosing instead to focus on my parting shot as though it were the point of my post. The above demonstrates a marked lack of the aforementioned understanding.
quote:Yes, if a person repeatedly provides poor service, they are going to get fired and not make any more money from that position. Employment laws in most states do not allow for a business to fire an employee without providing a modicum of justification, and if you have such an inflated sense of importance that you believe your complaint is worth that much weight- "yes, sir, ersomniac was displeased with the service, so you must be fired" -then this discussion is really going to go nowhere.
Having been in a position both to make the complaints (and watch them work, often with hilarious consequences) and help make decisions on continued employment, I can assure you it very often takes as little as one or two complaints to end a job.
You clearly don't know how to effectively communicate with management, owners, and decision makers. It's very, very easy to have a measurable negative OR positive effect on most service-related employees you encounter. It doesn't require a deluded sense of self-importance on the part of the customer.
Because guess what? We're in America. "The customer is always right" isn't completely accurate, but it's definitely the general mindset behind capitalist business. If you can demonstrate to an employer that it is worth more to him to get rid of an employee than to keep him, you can bet your sweet butt that most of the time, the employee will be gone.
quote:So, to answer your challenge of running a business, it is fairly obvious you have never had to deal with having employees or you would have never made such a poor argument.
quote:Not paying a tip results in the poor service never coming to the attention of the restaurant, which means you are allowing the problem to continue instead of doing something positive. So, unless you are actually telling the food server why you are not tipping or tipping so poorly, then you are just shrugging off the behavior to others.
And encouraging a 20% automatic gratuity HELPS? Guaranteeing that EVERY SERVER, regardless of ability, will get the same tips is going to improve (or even maintain) the level of service?
I also like how you assume that people who decide to penalize a server will leave no tip. Did you read the responses in this thread, where several people pointed out that when they tip "badly," they're still tipping as high as 10-15%?
Seriously, what planet are you on?
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Even more criminal though--people who tip less than 15%
Please tell me you're not advocating tipping 15% at a place like Fazolis.
When did 20% become the standard tip? Hatrack is the first place I've ever heard that. It's been 15% as long as I've been eating out and I haven't heard anywhere else that it's changed.
Regarding forced gratuities, you don't have to pay the gratuity even if it's already tacked onto your bill. It is a gratuity and if you feel the service was so lousy that you refuse to pay it, talk to the manager. The one time I did, it was a pain, but the service for our group was horrible and I was not going to pay 18% for service that bad.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Forget tipping. Raise the prices of the food, and if the service is absolutely extraordinary, tip 5% in cash.
What is happening here is wages rising without the restaurants wanting to raise their prices. The reason the rate for tipping has gone up is precisely because minimum wage hasn't been budged in over a decade. If we eliminate tipping and have the wages reflect the actual cost of labor, there wouldn't be this.
I hate the idea of low tipping for bad service because it isn't negotiated up front. If I go into a restaurant, then the experience is a crapshoot. We've already committed to each other to be together for the duration of the meal, so low tipping at the end of it is stiffing the waitstaff.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Forget tipping. Raise the prices of the food, and if the service is absolutely extraordinary, tip 5% in cash.
What is happening here is wages rising without the restaurants wanting to raise their prices. The reason the rate for tipping has gone up is precisely because minimum wage hasn't been budged in over a decade. If we eliminate tipping and have the wages reflect the actual cost of labor, there wouldn't be this.
quote:I hate the idea of low tipping for bad service because it isn't negotiated up front. If I go into a restaurant, then the experience is a crapshoot. We've already committed to each other to be together for the duration of the meal, so low tipping at the end of it is stiffing the waitstaff.
But if the waitstaff gives you bad service, wouldn't you consider that you had been stiffed. I don't think it needs to be negotiated. It's already assumed that bad service will get a bad tip and exemplary service will get a great tip.
BTW, Florida's minimum wage has gone up, so maybe that's why 15% is still the norm. Servers in Florida get a minimum of $3.13/hr.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:You have a bad day? You don't get paid that day, and that's the way it should be. Your job, as a waiter and as a salesperson is to never have a bad day. Ever. And if you do, your pay gets docked accordingly.
I don't think it's necessary to never have a bad day. I do think it's essential to not let it affect your work disposition, which is a useful skill in any profession.
ADA = Americans with Disabilities Act ESL = English as a Second Language
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I was thinking of an incident when my nephew came to USA visiting from Germany and decided to order a large Pizza. The pizza guy delivered it and my nephew gave him a tip for 1 American dollar, he was fillig generous. His cousin run after the pizza guy and gave him extra tip for the delivery. My nephew could not understand why his cousin was doing that since in Germany they don’t feel obligated to tip, so needless to say he found it quite strange that we are paying someone to just deliver our food. When we went to Germany my nephew told me that waiters love Americans since they tip well.I have visited Germany and England and we are not required to leave a tip let alone add that to the bill automatically. The same goes also for restaurants. I am the kind of person that will tip at least 25% if the waiter is good. All I require is that they fill my glass with water as many times as I need and bring the food to me warm. Is that so much to ask? I find myself sometimes thirsty and not able to get the waiters attention to get me some water. I consider that a very bad service and I will tip accordingly. In situations like that I will only tip 10 to max 15% are you to tell me that no matter how crappy the service is the waiter is still going to get 20%. I don’t see how the industry is going to better themselves when there is no incentive. I am completely against the tip being added to the bill, I would rather decide how much a waiter gets on tips by their service. I am for advocating that they have an increase in their base pay from the owner of the restaurant but that is as far as it goes. This is just my two cents
Posts: 69 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by FlyingCow: Have you ever watched the train wreck that is self-checkout at grocery stores? Sometimes the simplest things can be utterly baffling to a good chunk of the population - especially when you add technology to the mix. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Um, I've never seen them working any way other than smoothly. They're great, and I love them.
I love them, too. But only if there isn't a line. I've stood in lines for self-checkout and wanted to just take the food from the people and do it myself. And it boggles the mind when someone starts checking out there with obviously more food than will fit on the weight-sensitive platform in bags, and needs to call a manager to override the system to let them continue checking out. Just dumb people. Trust me, they're out there.
quote:Please tell me you're not advocating tipping 15% at a place like Fazolis.
I don't know Fazolis. I looked it up on the web, and it appears to be like a Chilis, Macaroni Grill, Olive Garden, ChiChis, etc sort of place.
And yes, you should be tipping at least 15% there, as well. What would make you think that you shouldn't?
If anything, I tend to tip more at a place like that, because the cost of my meal is a lot lower, and I know that 15% of a cheap meal is a lot less in the server's pocket than 15% of an expensive one - for essentially the same amount of time, effort, and service.
quote:When did 20% become the standard tip? Hatrack is the first place I've ever heard that. It's been 15% as long as I've been eating out and I haven't heard anywhere else that it's changed.
I'm going to assume here that you don't have any friends who have waited tables in the last 5 - 10 years. The sentiment among servers I've worked with is that less than 15% is a cheapskate, 15% is adequate but also "bare minimum", 17-18% is standard, 20% is good, and more than 20% is very good.
When I said the 15% "to the penny" line, I really meant that on a $37.50 check, someone would leave $5.63 on their credit card - not even rounding that up to $6 (which is 16%)
On a related note:
I know if my girlfriend and I are sitting at a four person table in a family-style chain restaurant, and we order cheaper meals - let's say $12 or so per entree - and sodas, that the bill is only going to come to $28-30 or so - which, at 20% comes to an $6 tip ($4 at 15%). If the average meal cost in the restaurant is $20, and that four person table were filled, the check would come to closer to $90 ($18 at 20%, $14 at 15%). Our sitting at that table for a standard length of time (instead of that server getting four people seated) is costing the waiter between $10-12 dollars. If we linger, taking up a large amount of time and preventing that table from being used again until we leave, we're costing the waiter a lot more than that.
In such a situation, I figure out 20%, then throw a couple more dollars on top. If I'm lingering at a table, I'll throw a few more dollars on top of that, essentially for "renting" that space.
There's nothing worse than having two campers at a 4-top table who finish their meal just as the dinner rush starts, then linger over the last drops of soda in their glasses talking for an hour while the dinner rush comes and goes. That's potentially two seatings lost on that one table, for a possible loss of $40-$60 in tips. Then to have that same table leave only 15% on their already cheap meal?
quote:Do you understand the commissioned salesman model?
I preface this by saying that I don't think I fully understand the commissioned salesman model, but that I feel there are distinct differences between that and the tip model.
A commissioned salesman knows what percent commission he will get if he sells something, but there's no guarantee he'll sell something when he has a customer. A waiter does not know what percent he will get off his sales, but has a guarantee that he'll sell something to every customer he has.
That's a pretty big difference, to me. Enough not to be able to meaningfully compare the two models.
quote:And encouraging a 20% automatic gratuity HELPS? Guaranteeing that EVERY SERVER, regardless of ability, will get the same tips is going to improve (or even maintain) the level of service?
Not defending the auto-tip here, but that happens already. Every server, regardless of ability, gets essentially the same tips. Good tippers (20% or more) will leave good tips regardless of service, and bad tippers (less than 15%) will leave bad tips regardless of service. Service may swing that number 2-3% (at most 5%), but that's not really significant.
The average customer who routinely tips 10% will not suddenly tip 20% for good service. The average customer who routinely tips 20% will not suddently tip 10% for bad service.
The best server in the world can have a string of stingy tippers and make very little money, and the worst server in the world can have a string of businessmen on expense accounts and make a killing.
Tip amount has far, far more to do with the customer than it does with the quality of service.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:But if the waitstaff gives you bad service, wouldn't you consider that you had been stiffed. I don't think it needs to be negotiated. It's already assumed that bad service will get a bad tip and exemplary service will get a great tip.
You may assume that.
Waitstaff does not. Too much experience with exemplary service receiving bad tips and bad service getting a great tip has shown to servers that there is very little parity between service quality and tip amount.
While the customer may think that, it is not true in the least. Bad tippers leave bad tips. Good tippers leave good tips. The small percentage of "conditional tippers" who vary their tip amount is not significant at the end of the night - leading to maybe a net difference of a few dollars.
Here's an idea:
What if there was a "tip counter" on the table, and every five minutes you could either bump it up a percent or down a percent? It could start at 18% at the start of the meal - then if people don't want to tip that much, they can lower it to 15% (or lower) during the course of the meal or raise it to 20% (or higher) during the course of the meal.
The reading at the end of the meal is automatically added to the bill, though customers could always go higher (but not lower).
That would allow the server to know when a table is unhappy (tip starts going down near the middle or end of the meal). It would also let the servers know what tables are the cheapskates up front, so they wouldn't have to bust their hump for a table that will give them only 10% no matter what.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:But if the waitstaff gives you bad service, wouldn't you consider that you had been stiffed.
yeah, but that's part of the risk anytime I decide to conduct a transaction. If I decide to buy tickets to a play and the acting is bad, I don't get my money back. So, I read reviews and listen to reccomendations and try to judicious in my decisions of which play to go to.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Fazolis is not like Chilis, etc. It's more like BackYard Burger. You order your food at a counter, get your own drink and any refills, get your own utensils, napkins, etc. and put your garbage in the trash on the way out. The only difference between Fazolis and a typical fast food place is that they bring you breadsticks during the meal and I believe they bring out your food when it's ready.
I see your point about 2 people taking up a 4-person table, but generally, the customers don't get to choose the table. I never linger at a table, especially when it's crowded, but why should I pay more for the same service because I wasn't seated at a 2-person table. I understand that the waiter loses money, but I'm on a budget too.
The 15% that's in my head is based on what I see on menus. I live in Orlando - the tourist mecca of America. Because many foreigners aren't familiar with tipping, many restaurants in Orlando include a statement that says that tipping is customary and what the percentage should be. I'll look the next time I'm out, but I'm pretty sure they say 15%.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote: What if there was a "tip counter" on the table, and every five minutes you could either bump it up a percent or down a percent? It could start at 18% at the start of the meal - then if people don't want to tip that much, they can lower it to 15% (or lower) during the course of the meal or raise it to 20% (or higher) during the course of the meal.
I actually like that idea. But of course, the cheapskates would set it at 20% near the beginning and then drop it right at the end of the meal.
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quote:The best server in the world can have a string of stingy tippers and make very little money, and the worst server in the world can have a string of businessmen on expense accounts and make a killing.
Tip amount has far, far more to do with the customer than it does with the quality of service.
If the servers believe this is true, then the assumed contract between server and servee is already broken. If so, why should I tip at all?
If it's so that the server earns enough money, well, that's between the server and their employer.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Would you stop going out to eat if restaurants automatically added 20% to the check for gratuity?
I would still go, just as long as they lowered the menu prices at the restaurant 20% accordingly.
But seriously, adding an automatic tip is just asneaky way to raise prices otherwise. If a restaurant thinks servers should automatically get more money, they should pay them more in salary, and raise their prices to compensate. Don't put one price on the menu, but then expect us to pay 20% more than that price, automatically.
The entire point of a tip is to reward good service above bad service. That's why the customer is given the option of tipping more or less. But if it is no longer about service, then I don't think it makes sense to have an extra hidden cost that customers have to pay for a meal. A better practice, if we truly don't care about rewarding good service, might be to (1) legally ban giving tips, (2) force restaurants to pay higher wages to compensate. That way, the menu is clear in telling the customer exactly what he will pay for a meal, and the server is clear on exactly what he will be paid for serving that meal.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Don't put one price on the menu, but then expect us to pay 20% more than that price, automatically.
I think the same thing should be true of sales tax. Give me a single price, and I'll decide if I want to pay it or not.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:If the servers believe this is true, then the assumed contract between server and servee is already broken. If so, why should I tip at all?
The servers believe that they'll get *something*. It's very rare that you get stiffed entirely.
But the servers also generate their own table prejudices and can "call" the percent of a table before they even approach it. I've seen friendly pools (no money involved) on just how bad or how good a tip would be from a table - and most people were not far off. There were very few surprises.
I will say that as much as good service does not generate good tips, good/bad tips will generate good/bad service.
If I had a customer that I remembered as being a good tipper, they would get a greater percentage of my time. If I had a customer that I remembered as a lousy tipper, they would get a lower percentage of my time.
For business lunches with six guys in suits? You bend over backwards, because likely the entire meal is on an expense account including the tip, and the guy paying wants to look generous to the others at the table.
For a group of three women dressed up to go to the club right after dinner, I learned not to expect much no matter how much I bent over backwards. They were already calculating the money they'd be spending later, and tipped a lot lower than average.
quote:The entire point of a tip is to reward good service above bad service.
In the mind of the customer.
In reality, the point of a tip is to pay for your service as a separate expense from your food. The restaurant is not paying the servers a fair wage for their efforts, assuming they will get tips. So, the service provided by the waitstaff is not included in the cost of the meal. The server is being paid directly by the customer for their efforts through tips.
If you choose not to tip at all, you are essentially stealing the services/time of your server - like jumping out of a cab without paying. If you tip the standard amount (whatever it is in your area), you are compensating your server for their time and efforts (giving them their fair wage). If you tip well, you are compensating your server for their time and giving them a bonus for their efforts.
quote:A better practice, if we truly don't care about rewarding good service, might be to (1) legally ban giving tips, (2) force restaurants to pay higher wages to compensate. That way, the menu is clear in telling the customer exactly what he will pay for a meal, and the server is clear on exactly what he will be paid for serving that meal.
I don't have a problem with a "no tip" policy. In fact, I've worked as a bartender for parties that didn't allow tipping (it was made clear up front to the guests). My wage was negotiated ahead of time, that I would be paid X for Y hours of service.
It's all about customer awareness, though.
If a restaurant wanted to pay its servers $14 per hour, and raise the cost of the meal accordingly, they would have to publicize that and let every table know that tips were *not* expected, because the waiters were making $14 per hour instead of the standard $2.30 per hour (or whatever it is in your state).
By the same token, though, restaurants should be required to say just how much they're paying their waitstaff per hour (say, $2.30/hr) and make it clear that the restaurant is paying for pre-shift setup/washdown/duties and not for actual food service -- that cost is the burden of the customer.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I have tons of plans for opening a restaurant that eliminates a lot of the service problems that I see currently plaguing the service industry in general.
The main thrust of the plan is to pay my waitstaff on the order of 9 bucks an hour while only hiring the very best waiters. I'll pay them more, but make it clear to them that customer service is priority #1.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:I understand that the waiter loses money, but I'm on a budget too.
Just wanted to respond to this, too, and I don't want this to sound like an attack, because it isn't.
This statement frustrates me to no end.
Far too many people who are "on a budget" go out to restaurants and shortchange their servers. It is not the server's fault that these people shouldn't be eating in a restaurant if they aren't prepared and able to compensate him for his service.
This was the case in Atlanta. The people we'd get into the restaurant were from lower-income areas of the town who came to Buckhead to party, and they really didn't have the money to be eating out. They would pay for the food, try to get as many "extras" as they could, try to get as much food comped as they could, then would leave a tiny tip (8-12%) or none at all.
(Many would buy drinks at the bar, then try to sit at a table in your section - ordering nothing, and tipping nothing, but taking up your seats. Others would sit in your section while waiting for friends to arrive for the club down the block, and order one drink among the four of them - and then wouldn't tip.)
I understand that the tip was probably low because they couldn't afford more. But, if you can't afford to eat out, don't. Why should the server be penalized because he gets customers who can't afford to pay for his time, when that table could just as easily have been sat with customers who were more economically capable.
If someone goes out to eat, they should expect to tip their server at least 15% - otherwise, they should get take-out or go to the grocery store.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:The main thrust of the plan is to pay my waitstaff on the order of 9 bucks an hour while only hiring the very best waiters.
Would they also be making the same tips, or would their wage just be $9/hr? And where would this be located? In NJ, even making 12% tips, you're probably making better than $9 per hour. I made roughly 20% in tips up here, and pulled closer to $18 an hour - and that was in a Macaroni Grill. Still, though, waiters don't usually work a 40 hour week, so that's not as great as it seems.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Says who? When I go out to eat, the restaurant doesn't pay me enough to be responsible for the wages of the serving staff.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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When you go out to eat, you're benefiting from lowered food costs because the restaurant isn't taking responsibility for the wages of the serving staff.
So, yes, you're saving money, because the cost of service has been moved onto your shoulders.
If you want the restaurant to pay their cusomters an adequate wage, be prepared to pay (at least) 20% more for every food item.
But, then, that's what a mandatory 20% tip would do anyway.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I'm posting without reading every post in the thread again...
But I just wanted to say manditory 20% tipping wouldn't make me stop going to restaurants... But the bad service from people who didn't care how they treated you because they were going to get their pound of flesh anyway just might.
In any event, 20% is less than I normally tip (for good/average service) anyway so it would actually cut how much the wait staff gets from me. The only people who benefitted from this would be the people who wait 30 min to take my order and then bring me cold food an hour later.
quote:Would they also be making the same tips, or would their wage just be $9/hr? And where would this be located? In NJ, even making 12% tips, you're probably making better than $9 per hour. I made roughly 20% in tips up here, and pulled closer to $18 an hour - and that was in a Macaroni Grill. Still, though, waiters don't usually work a 40 hour week, so that's not as great as it seems.
This would be in a place in Louisiana that has a very low cost of living, and where no waiters make even 5 bucks an hour. They could also still receive tips, though I would put out a sign that said tips were not necessary. I imagine that the majority of diners would still tip anyway, as it's so ingrained it'd be hard to just stop.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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It's amazing, too, because the truly good waiters, who have learned the art of food service, generally work in restaurants that even 10% of the meal would astounding.
For instance, at Per Se in Manhattan, an average meal per person is $210 I think, with an automatic 20% gratuity. That's not including wine. For a table of 4, that's $168 - not including wine. And that's per table, per night.
My friend just went there with his wife and her law firm coworkers, ten people total. The server made over $500 on that one group. If it were 10% tip, he'd still have made over $250.
Servers at that level don't worry about tips so much. It's the single mother of two working in a Chili's that worries most about percent.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote: Far too many people who are "on a budget" go out to restaurants and shortchange their servers. It is not the server's fault that these people shouldn't be eating in a restaurant if they aren't prepared and able to compensate him for his service.
I just wanted to make sure you knew I was only speaking about the instance you brought up regarding 2 people at a 4-person table and paying a higher tip because of it. I completely agree that if you can't afford the meal and the tip, you shouldn't be eating there.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I'm surprised that more restaurants aren't self-service, considering that a poor service experience is actually one of the most common complaints about restaurants. What does having a waitstaff actually bring to the experience, besides complimentary breadsticks and a heaping load of guilt?
I fall into the strongly disagree with forcing me to pay as if I had been served well. My tipping is completely based on service not at all on food quality.
Completely agree with Tom, I actually go to restaurants on occasion because I don't HAVE to tip anybody, I'm broke, what can I say?
I honestly do not feel it is important to have anybody serve me. There is a restaurant in Utah where every table has a phone and you simply phone in your order and they call you back once your food is done. You get up and go collect it, add condiments as desired. If you want a free refill, get up go back to the counter and they will pour it for you.
I am a generous tipper, but I am just as happy to avoid paying a waiter as I am more then willing to pick up my own food, or even make several trips and pick up everybody at the table's food.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:I am a generous tipper, but I am just as happy to avoid paying a waiter as I am more then willing to pick up my own food, or even make several trips and pick up everybody at the table's food.
And there are restaurants that accomodate your wishes - McDonald's is one, buffets are another. I'm sure there are several more. I just don't agree with Tom that *all* restaurants could operate this way, because they can't.
Though, I'd love to see customers set fire to their own crepe suzette, of course.
quote:I just wanted to make sure you knew I was only speaking about the instance you brought up regarding 2 people at a 4-person table and paying a higher tip because of it. I completely agree that if you can't afford the meal and the tip, you shouldn't be eating there.
I understand that. It's just something I do, having worked as a server for a few years. If I know that, through my actions/ordering/etc, I am becoming a low-spending table and decreasing a server's table value, I'll tip slightly more.
That's just courtesy, in my mind, not anything that I would try to enforce as common practice.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by littlemissattitude: What infuriates me is the restaurant owner who feels entitled to take a huge markup on the food his or her establishment serves and then feels entitled to make his or her customers pay his waitstaff's wages so that he or she doesn't have to do so.
That kind of ticks me off, too. Stiffing the food servers is not going to scratch that itch.
Um.....who said I was "stiffing the food servers"? I believe that I posted earlier that I tip based on the service I get. If I don't get good service, I don't tip very much; if I do get good service I tip quite well, thanks. I fail to see why I am obligated to give a good tip when service is subpar.
Someone (I'm sorry that I can't recall who it was) gave the example of an individual having a bad day, and implying that their tips shouldn't suffer because of that. But, you know, when I was in school, there were times that I did poorly on exams because I was having a bad day. That didn't mean - I don't think - that I should have been given free points on those exams. I did how I did and got rewarded (with a grade, good or bad) according to that, not according to how well I would have done if I was having a good day.
I've never waited tables, but I have worked in retail, and part of what I was being paid (badly, I might add) for was to be pleasant to the customers and to carry out my job duties competently and efficiently, no matter what kind of a day I was having personally.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I hate forced tipping. My base tip is 20%, I add more for good service, subtract for bad service. For truly terrible service even after I've let the server know I was unhappy, I have on rare occasions tipped nothing.
It never ocurred to me that anyone might tip based on food quality. The server doesn't control that.
I also don't care if the server makes a mistake. Bringing me Coke when I ordered Dr Pepper -- everyone makes mistakes. It's when they don't try that I get bothered. When I finished my drink and can't eat any more until I get more beverage, and they haven't checked back in 15 minutes. When they bring the food but no silverware, and take 5 full minutes to come back with it. When they know we're unhappy and they've screwed up, and make no effort to not keep on making mistakes, showing their almost complete inattention.
Forced tipping is just a dishonest tax. With sales tax, it might be nice to have the "real" price up front, but it's the government forcing the business to add tax, why should they include the tax in the price if others don't? It'll make their prices seem higher. And if they did include it, and we all got used to it, the gov't would probably decide to just raise taxes, since it would be a lot more transparent to the consumer; it'd just look like stores raised their prices.
But with forced tipping, the restaurant is just playing a shell game with your money. They say dinner costs $20, but it really costs $33. If you're going to include the tip, then just raise prices and eliminate tipping.
Many restaurants I've been to say they will include gratuity on the bill for parties of 6 or more. I don't think that's ever happened to me.
I'll tell you though, I wouldn't feel the least bit immoral leaving a lower tip and just walking out. Let them try to arrest me. If I *have* to pay it, if it's not a gratutity (root definition, free gift!), then they are advertising their prices falsely. Let 'em sue.
If the service was not terrible, then I'd pay the gratuity, but not a penny over. Which would be them shooting themselves in the foot, since I normally tip above their "forced tip."
But yeah, I probably wouldn't want to eat out as much.
The whole reason to go out is the experience. If the server makes it unhappy for me, and I have to pay them even though I didn't get anything close to what I was led to expect, I'll snap and break up the place. Not really, but lowering my tip is what I do instead of getting up and talking to the manager. Which I don't want to do since confrontation makes me unhappy as well.
So if I really have no choice but to tip no matter what the service is like, then I would consider the restaurants dishonest with their advertised prices and not want to go there. Or I'd take a pen and just start crossing out their prices on the menu and writing the real ones.
If servers give me lousy service because they think "it doesn't matter, good tippers tip, bad tippers don't, what I do won't change it" then they are just fulfilling their own prophecy. Which is a shame, because I would much, much rather tip well and receive good service.
Posts: 454 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I think that some of you who haven't waited tables are judging your servers too harshly. If your thirsty and want your fourth refill of water, but can't find the server, you call that bad service and dock the tip. Never mind that that server is refilling 3 cokes and two shirley temples at another table, getting a bear and margarita from the bar for yet another table, checking to see if your food and every other meal is ready to run, seating a table and checking out another table. Sure, that's not your fault, but that's not the server's fault either.
Your food came out cold? That sucks, dock tip, right? It doesn't matter that your food came up right after the food for a 10 top that the server has to run. Ooops, then there was something wrong with one or more of those meals, and they need refills, and lemons, oh and maybe a couple more napki- doh! One of them knocked over a drink! This could take a while. But they do finally bring your food out, which makes something the other tables are waiting for late, which makes them tip less. But, again, not your fault, but not the server's either. But your still gonna tip 10% percent because you didn't get your refill and your food was cold. It's ok, the other table is only gonna tip 7% because the server took so long to help them.
Again, I realize you should not be punished for this, but does that mean the server should? They are working they're collective buts off to do the best they can, but they still get screwed. Obviously, not every server is a good one, and some just don't care, but that is not, by far, the majority. Most servers do care, and try to do a good job, and don't deserve to make less money because the restaurant was busy that night and one of the servers called in sick, so they have to take more tables than they can handle.
And the kinds of things I'm talking about are absolutely NOT abnormal. This is the kind of thing a server deals with every single night. Just because your dining experience wasn't perfect, or wasn't even up to par, does not mean that the server is not working hard, or hasn't earned the tip they should recieve.
Edit: And for those who say that the burden of compensating the servers should not be on the customer, but on the employer, I completely agree. Restaurants should have to pay their servers more, so that you don't have to. It would be great if in a semi-fine dining restaurant a server makes a blanket $12 and hour, and you can tip a couple bucks if you want. That would be ideal. But, unfortunately, that isn't the way it works. I can't change that, you can't change that by not tipping, the server certainly can't change it, so it really doesn't matter.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
If the restaurants can decide to charge everyone a mandatory tip, then they can decide to do away with tipping and pay a fair wage.
Some say it would eat the profits of the restaurant. With tipping, it is forcing the employees to take on the risk of no customers instead of the owner of the establishment. Tipping doesn't eliminate risk but instead puts it on the employees.
The reason this is sustainable at all is because sometimes the risk pays off in a big way. WIth no tipping, no wait staff would come home with $600 in cash from a night.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:If your thirsty and want your fourth refill of water, but can't find the server, you call that bad service and dock the tip.
When I am paying $2.20 for 50 cents worth of Dr Pepper, it's because I expect to actually receive it. When I tell the server ahead of time "I drink a lot of soda, so you might want to bring more than one and save yourself some time" and they not only don't do it but don't even check back, yeah, that's a problem. When I *tell* them, and they don't come back, and I'm left unable to eat another bite of my meal for 5 full minutes because I can't even *see* my server, that's a problem. If they have too much else to do, maybe that's not their fault but it sure isn't mine. Fact is I'm not getting what I paid for.
quote:Your food came out cold? That sucks, dock tip, right?
Why would I dock tip for that? Do I expect the server to stick their finger in my food and check the temperature? I suppose the server could have just left it sitting there for 10 minutes so it got cold, but I wouldn't assume that. I'd send it back, but if the server was friendly and no surly, I certainly wouldn't dock tip.
quote:Again, I realize you should not be punished for this, but does that mean the server should?
If I am led to expect a level of service and don't get it, I can either tip less or talk to the manager. If it's the server's fault, I tip less. If I'm wrong, they can try talking to the manager themselves: "we're getting low tips because you're overworking us! Hire another server!"
The vast majority of the time the *only* problems I have at restaurants are inattentive or surly waitstaff. So yeah, my protest is in the form of the tip.
quote:They are working they're collective buts off to do the best they can
No, they are *not*. I don't dock tip for people working to do the best they can. I dock tip for those who could do better but don't make the effort.
quote:I think that some of you who haven't waited tables are judging your servers too harshly.
I think you're projecting your preconceived notions onto me. I'd say straw man fallacy but it clearly wasn't intentional.
Posts: 454 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:And for those who say that the burden of compensating the servers should not be on the customer, but on the employer, I completely agree. Restaurants should have to pay their servers more, so that you don't have to. It would be great if in a semi-fine dining restaurant a server makes a blanket $12 and hour, and you can tip a couple bucks if you want. That would be ideal. But, unfortunately, that isn't the way it works. I can't change that, you can't change that by not tipping, the server certainly can't change it, so it really doesn't matter.
Hear hear. Very well said, and I'm in complete agreement.
I do like my tip meter, though. To respond to zgator's "drop it right at the end" it would have a lockout that you can only change it by a single percentage point every five minutes. So, you can't bump it up 5% immediately (even though you can always tip on top of the counter), but you can't drop it 5% without doing it five times over 25 minutes.
So, for a forty minute meal, the lowest a person could conceivably tip their waiter would be 10% - if they timed it so they dropped it a percent every 5 minutes. And then, the waiter would know after the first 15-20 min that this customer isn't planning on tipping even the standard rate, and could focus their attentions on other tables.
It would be great, too, because the tip could be more reactive. Say the person had a great personality and made you all laugh as you sat down - up 1%. Say the waiter came back with an incorrectly entered order after a long wait - down 1% (or 2%, depending on how long the wait was). Say the waiter then was absent for five minutes while someone was waiting for a refill of their drink - down 1%. Maybe then the waiter brought the manager over to apologize for the incorrect order and to offer the table a free dessert - up 1%.
As positive or negative things happened that were server-based, the customer could adjust the tip amount. And even better, the server can respond to lower tip indicators (bringing the manager over).
[Edit: Also, tables with lower tips shown can draw the attention of managers, who can approach the table and ask why they weren't happy - possibly fixing the problem, but also letting them know which servers consistently aren't performing well]
The more I think about that system, the more I like it.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
There are some things that are the server's fault, and other things that aren't. For instance:
- Server has too many tables: Host's fault - Food comes out incorrectly: possibly server, possibly kitchen. - Server disappears for a time: possibly server, possibly management. - Not checking back after specific request: server's fault (also possibly host's fault or no one's fault if the restaurant is jam packed) - Drink made incorrectly/badly/weak: Bartender's fault. - Food cold: possibly server, kitchen, or expediter's fault - Dirty glass/silverware: dishwasher's fault. - Table not clean when you're seated: mostly busboy's fault, part host's fault. - Rudeness: totally server's fault.
I know most people take all of this into account - meaning whether or not their unahppy experience was the server's fault or not - but a good portion of people dock the server's tip for all things that go wrong in their night. That's not fair, and I think that's what vonk was getting at.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
The thing that gets me is that I go to a lot of effort to try to tip servers above average for only average service, but then if I try to dock tip for poor service that is only the server's fault, people will PREJUDGE and assume I must be a cheapskate or unjust.
So I don't labor under the illusion that my tipping choice will even influence the server to do better in the future. It might, but I figure it most likely won't. They'll assume I'm the bad guy instead of them.
But at least I'll save some money.
But I'd rather spend it and have a better experience.
Posts: 454 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: There are some things that are the server's fault, and other things that aren't. For instance:
- Server has too many tables: Host's fault - Food comes out incorrectly: possibly server, possibly kitchen. - Server disappears for a time: possibly server, possibly management. - Not checking back after specific request: server's fault (also possibly host's fault or no one's fault if the restaurant is jam packed) - Drink made incorrectly/badly/weak: Bartender's fault. - Food cold: possibly server, kitchen, or expediter's fault - Dirty glass/silverware: dishwasher's fault. - Table not clean when you're seated: mostly busboy's fault, part host's fault. - Rudeness: totally server's fault.
I know most people take all of this into account - meaning whether or not their unahppy experience was the server's fault or not - but a good portion of people dock the server's tip for all things that go wrong in their night. That's not fair, and I think that's what vonk was getting at.
The problem is that regardless of whose fault those problems are, they're ultimately the server's responsibility. It's unfortunate, but that's the way the system is built. You'll get informed/empathetic people who will understand that many problems are not the waiter's fault, but by and large people are going to logically associate blame with the person whose job it is to visibly interact with the customers. Anyone who's worked in a call center can relate to being blamed for problems you have ZERO control over.
That's just part of the job.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
That's the risk. Servers take on the risk of all that happening. In return for the risk is the chance for higher compensation. Restaurant owners pass on the risk of employement to the servers. In return for passing on that risk, they can/do charge less and therefore take in less money. If tipping were eliminated, restaurants would not charge 20% more. They would charge 30% more because they'll have to pay servers whether or not customers come in. These increased prices would reflect the reallocation of risk.
In a restaurant, every empty table and every table for four filled with two lingerers costs opportunity. The servers pay that - they earn that much less than they could have otherwise.
I'm not troubled by tipping rates going up - my salary is higher now than the same job earned 15 years ago too, and food prices have not gone up nearly as fast. If I'm troubled by anything, it's by the practice of restaurants passing on the risk and opportunity cost of restaurant ownership to their employees.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:The problem is that regardless of whose fault those problems are, they're ultimately the server's responsibility.
Not really. It's the responsibility of the bartender to make the right drink, and the busboy to clear the tables. The server faces the *consequences* of any errors, but those errors may or may not be their responsibility.
A server will take a lower tip because the patron is in a bad mood and got caught out in the rain... suffering the consequences of something that was totally not their responsibility.
My post was meant to illustrate that a great number of factors can affect service - even for the best server - and the server is not always responsible for the mistake. A server won't know if the order they put into the bar for a Stoli Cosmo actually gets Stoli instead of some other vodka - but the customer likely will.
If a customer complains, a good server will track down the problem, reorder the drink, and possibly have the manager comp it so the customer doesn't have to pay. That's deserving of extra tip, but the drink mistake is not deserving of lower tip, imho. The server took repsonsibility for *fixing* a problem they were not ultimately responsible for creating, which is to their credit.
I understand that the server takes grief for things out of his or her control (as do call center people) - but wouldn't it be a better world if people were educated as to what is and is not the fault of the server (or call center operator)? Those people take the heat due to the ignorance of the consumer regarding the complexities of a given situation - perhaps education about those complexities would lessen that heat.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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No, it's not. Serving the customer, completing sidework and obeying company policy are parts of the job. Being the recipient of complaints, whether well founded or not, is not part of the servers job. That is part of the managers job. If you have a complaint about any part of your dining experience, you tell the manager. They will apologize profusely, probably offer a discount or comp item and promptly forget all about you. They can explain to you the reasons behind what went wrogn. They can tell you if it's the hostess to blame, or the capacity or the restaurant, or a server called in sick. Or they can say that your right, that is not how they do business and you can be confirmed that it was, in fact your server doing lousy job. If that is the case, then by all means, you have every right to tip less. But there is no way to know this without talking to the manager. It is their job to explain it to you. So, no, it isn't part of the servers job at all to recieve criticism or punishment based on an initial complaint.
And for those that say that talking to a manager will result in the server losing their job: I would hate to work there, and have never heard of anyone who does. It usually takes many complaints over a long period of time to lose a job waiting tables. There are many steps to the disciplining process, including extra sidework, bad shifts, bad sections, stern talking to's, and docked shifts. All of these are effective ways of increasing the performance of a server. But there is no way the server will get any better if you don't tell the manager about your problems.
So, in conclusion, I would suggest talking to the manager when you have a problem with your meal in order to find out why that problem happened, so you can make decisions regarding tip and your chances of return business.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Not really. It's the responsibility of the bartender to make the right drink, and the busboy to clear the tables. The server faces the *consequences* of any errors, but those errors may or may not be their responsibility.
All responsibility IS is accepting the consequences, ne?
quote:I understand that the server takes grief for things out of his or her control (as do call center people) - but wouldn't it be a better world if people were educated as to what is and is not the fault of the server (or call center operator)?
Sure. But it's not the case now - and I don't have enough faith in people to hope that it ever will be.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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This is why I hate the entire system of tipping -- there's an "understood" agreement, but because it's just understood, it's very easy for the two parties to not agree on what the agreement is.
Tell me how much it costs for me to eat your food in your restaurant, and let me choose to purchase it or not.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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This is why I hate the entire system of tipping -- there's an "understood" agreement, but because it's just understood, it's very easy for the two parties to not agree on what the agreement is.
Tell me how much it costs for me to eat your food in your restaurant, and let me choose to purchase it or not.
Dinner for two at Pie In the Sky Diner?
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:No, it's not. Serving the customer, completing sidework and obeying company policy are parts of the job. Being the recipient of complaints, whether well founded or not, is not part of the servers job.
Yes. Yes, it is. As the primary liason between customer and everyone else in the restaurant, it is the waiter's responsibility to bear the brunt of complaints. It is the waiter's responsibility to bring a manager into the situation, not the customer's. Your ONLY JOB is to be a liason between customer and restaurant. That job is extensive, and includes a whoooole lotta things, but that's what it comes down to.
Shrugging off this responsibility doesn't make it any less yours, since you will continue to suffer the consequences as though it were.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Not by any definition of the word responsible found on dictionary.com, eros.
Sure, someone can be *held* responsible for something that is not their responsibility. For instance, one can say that the Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world. One can even take action based on that perceived responsibility.
That doesn't, however, make the the Jews ultimately responsible for all the wars in the world (much to Mel Gibson's chagrin).
You can *say* that the server is ultimately responsible for all ills that befall you whilst in a restaurant, but that does not make it so. You can, however, take action based on that incorrect perception of responsibility, forcing the server to suffer consequences for something they had no hand in causing (aka, were not responsbile for).
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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