posted
I was thinking about tipping a bit more and wondered: is there any other occupation where the price for a service is not agreed upon up front and where one party to the transaction is legally free to unilaterally decide how much (or even if) he wants to pay for a service already rendered?
Another thought: is it not so that the overly generous tippers are basically subsidizing those people who refuse to tip what the service is actually worth?
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quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: Solo, I apologize if I characterized Canadian tipping culture in error. It was the only explanation I've ever been given why Canadians (in particular those from Quebec) generally don't tip as well as US Citizens. It's been the reason given to me by Canadians, too, which is why assumed it to be true.
Having no direct experience with Canadian culture, I have to apologize and plead ignorance.
No need to appologize. You might actually be right about Quebec. They are a pretty different culture than the rest of the country.
Posts: 1336 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Then the server can concentrate on tables that will be paying them, and get to you when they get to you, if they serve you at all.
But, see, that's NOT the implied contract. Ask any restaurant manager if he thinks that a server, told in advance that he won't be getting a tip, has the right to ignore or underserve that customer.
And just to clear up any possible misconceptions: I have been both a waiter, a pizza delivery guy, AND a chain restaurant manager. I know quite well the economics of tipping -- from a variety of angles.
Tipping is, in a very real sense, like blackjack. It's gambling, but it's possible to "win" if you've studied the house long enough. And people who've learned to game the system can make slightly more than an average server's wage at any given restaurant bracket; people who have not struggle by, waiting for the one or two big scores a week. This goes for tippERs, too; clever tippers -- and this is especially true for bars -- tend to cultivate favorite places and servers, and expect benefits to accrue to them as a consequence of that financial largesse.
But servers are NOT third-party contractors. If they were, you could pick up the Yellow Pages and hire someone to be your bartender for the night, accompanying you from bar to bar and pouring drinks just the way you like them. They're employees, and they're underpaid employees, and businesses profit from exploiting those employees by making them feel like it's their responsibility to bring in a living wage through what is essentially a reliance on the charity of customers.
And lest you think it's NOT charity, consider what we're hearing from the servers on this thread: that you HAVE to tip, that you're practically a criminal if you DON'T tip, and that it's downright rude to walk into a restaurant and expect service without paying an additional unspecified amount tied inexplicably to the total cost of your meal. Tipping, they point out, is a social function on which servers rely; they couldn't make ends meet without it.
And if that's your motivation for tipping, it's charity.
Heck, I generally tip 20%, for all that I think it's odious -- and that's because I've been a server and I know servers are otherwise underpaid. Charity, in other words. Do I think someone deserves $10 for bringing four drinks and three plates to my $50 meal, and asking twice behind a fake smile over the course of forty-five minutes if everything tastes all right? Of course not. That's simply not what that service is worth. But we provide an extra amount above and beyond the actual value of the service out of the kindness of our hearts: charity.
And remember, I don't get to detail the extent of my appreciation of that service, either. If someone goes the extra mile, warns me away from a particularly awful version of a dish and steers me to something good, has to clean up a spill from my toddler and manages to get all the food out just before a large order jams up the kitchen for an hour, do I write him a receipt for each of those or do I leave him an extra five bucks? Ten bucks? What WERE those things worth to me, and what did they actually cost him in time and effort?
There's no real mechanism by which the value of service can be reflected or measured by tips. Anyone who claims that there's an implied contract needs to first explain how that's possible when absolutely no element of that contract is explicit, besides the "flat" expectation of 15% (becoming 20% nowadays, thanks largely to a flat minimum wage) which simply represents the amount we all acknowledge that restaurants underpay their waitstaff.
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All [5] of the restaurant managers I have worked for actually would have understood giving minimal service to a customer who declares (or is a known) non-tipper. [I know this for a fact in 3 cases, but I'm pretty sure in the other 2 as well.] That is, I would have been told to be polite, get the food out there, and concentrate my extra service elsewhere.
You couldn't be foul-mouthed or ignore them completely, but the managers knew we were working on tips. And my restaurant experience ranges from Showbiz Pizza to one of the oldest country clubs in the south US.
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They'd have "understood" it, sure. But consider what you just listed as the bare minimum: be polite, and get the food out there.
What else does a server have to actually DO? A server is polite and gets the food out. To do LESS than that is not to be a server. And yet that's practically the definition of good service.
So to make your displeasure noticed, you're going to have to do one of two things: be LESS polite, or get the food out more slowly or less accurately. Don't give refills. Avoid the table, even when they're trying to get your attention.
And at that point, you're not being polite or getting the food out. Which means you aren't actually serving the table anymore.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Ask any restaurant manager if he thinks that a server, told in advance that he won't be getting a tip, has the right to ignore or underserve that customer.
To the customer, they'll probably say "of course not, that's terrible!" but to another manager they'll probably say "that guy's asking for trouble, don't worry about it if he complains."
Most managers were once servers. They understand that the waiter is working for tips. They also understand that if someone is going to make it known up front that they aren't going to tip, they likely aren't going to order much. Cheapness begets cheapness.
quote:is there any other occupation where the price for a service is not agreed upon up front and where one party to the transaction is legally free to unilaterally decide how much (or even if) he wants to pay for a service already rendered?
Street performers, maybe? But I would say a similar social contract applies there, too. If you don't want to give them money, just keep walking. If you stop and watch for a half an hour, and then don't give anything, that's pretty inconsiderate.
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quote: And remember, I don't get to detail the extent of my appreciation of that service, either. If someone goes the extra mile, warns me away from a particularly awful version of a dish and steers me to something good, has to clean up a spill from my toddler and manages to get all the food out just before a large order jams up the kitchen for an hour, do I write him a receipt for each of those or do I leave him an extra five bucks? Ten bucks? What WERE those things worth to me, and what did they actually cost him in time and effort?
This is where I ask to speak to the manager or leave a detailed comment card, or write a letter if time at the moment did not permit. I'm not saying it is necessary to do so, but it can be good policy to practice positive reinforcement in the world. (Even if the effect can get diluted out, I still think it may make a difference. Did and does for me, even though I wish I was beyond that. I still need a "hey, good job!" every so often to keep the batteries recharged.)
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:They understand that the waiter is working for tips.
Which you agree is a poor state of affairs?
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quote:This is where I ask to speak to the manager or leave a detailed comment card, or write a letter if time at the moment did not permit.
And yet, consider: this is not going to get that employee a raise. It might at best be considered when it's time for a promotion. Without also tipping an extra amount, the time you spend talking to that employee's manager actually winds up costing the restaurant money for no net benefit to the employee.
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quote:What else does a server have to actually DO? A server is polite and gets the food out. To do LESS than that is not to be a server. And yet that's practically the definition of good service.
The "be polite and get the food out there" also means that if there's another table's food up at the same time, the nontipper can wait. If you're swamped, get to the tipping customers and don't worry about that guy as much. If he waits an extra five minutes or more, don't worry about it. As long as he gets the food, and you get the money for the check.
I've let bad tippers sit before. The first two or three times I saw them, they left less than 10%, so the next times I saw them I didn't bother rushing. They got frustrated, kept trying to get my attention, and I smiled and said I'd be right with them, then promptly did other work I needed to do. By the end of the night, they're frustrated, didn't have a good experience, and.... left the same bad tip they left the first two times with good service.
I've seen waiters repeatedly go to bad tipping tables asking if they need anything, then ignoring whatever they ask for. Sometimes they send other waiters over to "check up" who then promptly forget what was asked for.
And that's when waiters are being kind. I've seen the horror stories about what can be done to food between the kitchen and the table for problem customers.
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quote:I smiled and said I'd be right with them, then promptly did other work I needed to do.... And that's when waiters are being kind. I've seen the horror stories about what can be done to food between the kitchen and the table for problem customers.
Oh, I'm not disputing the fact that servers can be petty and immature when their misplaced anger at being underpaid finds a target in a customer rather than their employer.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: They'd have "understood" it, sure. But consider what you just listed as the bare minimum: be polite, and get the food out there.
What else does a server have to actually DO? A server is polite and gets the food out. To do LESS than that is not to be a server. And yet that's practically the definition of good service.
So to make your displeasure noticed, you're going to have to do one of two things: be LESS polite, or get the food out more slowly or less accurately. Don't give refills. Avoid the table, even when they're trying to get your attention.
And at that point, you're not being polite or getting the food out. Which means you aren't actually serving the table anymore.
1. Refilling water 2. Checking back to ask if the food is okay 3. Anticipating when someone will need something extra and providing it unobtrusively 4. Getting the food out as soon as it hits the hotplate 5. Hounding the kitchen if need be to get the food out onto the hotplate 6. Again unobtrusively, being just present/visible enough to catch needs (or dash in to clean up a customer spill, what have you) without hovering 7. There's more, but I'm not fully awake
The service I provided at the country club was far different from the service I provided at the pizza joint. This was because of extensive training -- it took a lot of thought and practice to be seamless, to make the tending so unobtrusive as to seem not even there. The goal was to avoid being noticed as being helpful, but rather to make it seem as if there were no problems. Mind you, the clientele were savvy enough to tell the difference, for the most part -- i.e., they could recognize good service even when it didn't walk up and slap them in the face. But then that was the point.
Now the service I provided at the country club in itself differed markedly between when I was doing poolside service and when I was black-tie waitstaff or working a special event. This was dictated by where and what I was doing, how much background support I had, how many tables assigned and where, priorities of the kitchen, etc.
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quote:And that's when waiters are being kind. I've seen the horror stories about what can be done to food between the kitchen and the table for problem customers.
Any system propped up by the implicit blackmail in such stories needs to be changed.
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posted
I'll grant you #1, #3 and #6 (although will point out that refilling paid drinks is not an optional component of service). #2's not particularly useful, but managers will insist on it. Getting the food out quickly and hounding the kitchen are actually as beneficial to the server as to the customer, and so a server who neglects to do either is only hurting himself.
But it's also worth noting that, in general, only the best servers manage to do #3 and #6 anyway, and most servers of that quality wind up working in places where someone else does #1 for them (often for a tiny share of the final tip).
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posted
I'm giving them what they're paying for. I don't see how that's immature.
I've been told "I'm sorry, but I don't see prompt service as being something worthwhile for me to pay extra for" so I respond with "Okay, then I'll give you the level of service you've shown me you're willing to pay for."
The thing is, most servers make a fair compensation from most customers. Bad tippers are outliers and not usually the norm (depending on area). So, when someone deviates from the norm of the social contract in terms of tipping, it is only understandable that the server would respond with commensurate deviation.
Whether or not you think it's "right" or "fair", leaving no tip is insulting and degrading, and you shouldn't be surprised when you trigger negative behavior in response.
You can call them immature for not playing step and fetchit to a low/no-tipping customer, but I can call you naive for expecting them to.
And it's odd, but I get the distinct feeling (and I may be pulling this out of the air) that Tom is a good tipper in practice. I think he rarely gets what he considers "bad" service, and therefore rarely tips below a standard amount (I'm going to put him on 18% or so, but I could be wrong). It's my impression that the "I shouldn't have to tip" stance is rhetorical in nature and is more of a theoretical/intellectual exercise. I'm pretty confident that if I waited on him ever, I'd have gotten 18-20% or so.
Of course, I could be totally off base.
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quote:Whether or not you think it's "right" or "fair", leaving no tip is insulting and degrading
And this is precisely the perception that needs to change. If you believe that being underpaid for quality service is degrading, why not confront your employer about his willingness to underpay you for providing quality service? Why insult the customer, whose contract is with your employer and not you?
Do you tip the guy giving you an oil change?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:And yet, consider: this is not going to get that employee a raise. It might at best be considered when it's time for a promotion. Without also tipping an extra amount, the time you spend talking to that employee's manager actually winds up costing the restaurant money for no net benefit to the employee. [/QB]
That was not my experience as an employee, and it has not been my experience as a customer. (Again, I'm not saying it is necessary to do this, just relating my own policy and experience with where I go.) About 1 out of 5 times I hear back from the manager, often with specific information about how that affects this employee (and with a free appetizer or drink comp card, but that is beside the point). The managers have always (although they could well have been lying! ) told me to my face that it was a relief and a pleasure to field a compliment rather than a criticism, as usually they only got the latter. (Mind you, I don't ask for the manager at busy times, only if things seem fairly slow and I have the time.) And then I've had waitstaff tell me specifically that it was helpful when they recognized me again (sometimes weeks later, but usually where I was a semi-regular at the time) -- of course, they too could have been lying, I suppose.
I think the real benefit is just the emotional boost of being appreciated for doing good work in an underappreciated market. And I like knowing there is something good in the waitstaffer's file to balance out a possible complaint from a jerk that shouldn't be there.
I don't do this a lot, though. For me, this is for service above and beyond, but it's pretty consistently always for service that is above and beyond. Many times, though, I don't want the responsibility for being a guest/client, so I will hang out at a cafe or cook at home. It's also so much cheaper and healthier.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: #2's not particularly useful, but managers will insist on it. Getting the food out quickly and hounding the kitchen are actually as beneficial to the server as to the customer, and so a server who neglects to do either is only hurting himself.
This wasn't my experience, but I understand that YMMV. When we hit crunch times, it would have been a great relief to have clear prioritization in my mind for my tables.
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Edited to add:
quote:And it's odd, but I get the distinct feeling (and I may be pulling this out of the air) that Tom is a good tipper in practice. I think he rarely gets what he considers "bad" service, and therefore rarely tips below a standard amount (I'm going to put him on 18% or so, but I could be wrong). It's my impression that the "I shouldn't have to tip" stance is rhetorical in nature and is more of a theoretical/intellectual exercise. I'm pretty confident that if I waited on him ever, I'd have gotten 18-20% or so.
I've had the pleasure of dining out with Tom & his family many times, and I would certainly agree with you.
I don't like the current system, by the way, regardless of the fact that I tip well. I still think that waitstaff should be paid at least minimum wage up front, and that the system should be such that gratuities are a nice gravy but not expected.
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posted
I'm also not convinced that the "social contract" being spoken of here is being accurately described. It would be just as valid to say that the tipping convention exists so that the average salary of a server works out high enough that people want to be servers under those terms while allowing customers to contribute what they think fair to this effort.
For example, when complaining about Atlanta's low tipping, why don't you characterize it as the local variation of this social contract?
(For the record, I'm an excellent tipper - 20% rounded up to make the amount even is about as low as I go, barring never getting any water refills. It's gone much higher.)
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:And this is precisely the perception that needs to change. If you believe that being underpaid for quality service is degrading, why not confront your employer about his willingness to underpay you for providing quality service? Why insult the customer, whose contract is with your employer and not you?
Because it works?
Say I have three tables. Table A is a regular who gives a good tip (20%) ordinarily. Table B is a repeat customer who's given low tips (under 10% three times). Table C is a new customer.
Table C will get the lion's share of my attention. Table A will get most of my remaining attention. Table B will get any attention I can spare to get out the basics of rudimentary service (take order, bring food, check once, bring check).
Table C is a variable. I always give my best service to variables, because they could be that middle group who actually tips according to service.
Table A is consistant, and I try to do as much as I can for them. They are people I want to keep coming back - and people who I want telling their friends about the restaurant.
Table B is consistant in the opposite sense. They detract from the value of my tables, and they won't give a good tip even with great service (because I know the first time I ever saw them I went above and beyond, and likely the second time, too).
As a server, my time was valuable. I wanted to spend it in places that were profitable. That's common sense.
To take it to another level, as a server you don't want bad tippers coming back. You want those seats filled with average or better tippers (the majority of the population). If a bad tipper has a bad experience, maybe they'll choose a different restaurant next time. If they do, and give up on a store completely, all servers' profits increase.
This is assuming, of course, that they tip poorly regardless of service. These people exist, and it is to the server's benefit if they stopped eating out entirely.
quote:Do you tip the guy giving you an oil change?
Having worked at in the service department of a Saturn during college, I know full well what they get for oil changes. If you're going to compare mechanic's wages to server's wages, I don't think we can have any sort of meaningful conversation on the topic.
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quote: I think the real benefit is just the emotional boost of being appreciated for doing good work in an underappreciated market.
But, then, why not just leave out the tip entirely and thank the server for a job well done?
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quote: Say I have three tables. Table A is a regular who gives a good tip (20%) ordinarily. Table B is a repeat customer who's given low tips (under 10% three times). Table C is a new customer.
Now imagine that you are working at a hypothetical restaurant which does not permit tips. Waiting all three of these tables will net you the same amount of money. How does your service change?
quote:If you're going to compare mechanic's wages to server's wages, I don't think we can have any sort of meaningful conversation on the topic.
Ah. So you concede that tipping constitutes charity?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: I think the real benefit is just the emotional boost of being appreciated for doing good work in an underappreciated market.
But, then, why not just leave out the tip entirely and thank the server for a job well done?
I am a woman of drama and surprises. I like the cumulative effect. Plus one feeds the belly, the other feeds the soul -- and rarely the two shall mix.
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Edited to clear up formatting and add:
me: speak to waiter directly + make known to management = waiter: mainly psychological boost, maybe improve workplace environment cumulatively (as per Dagonee above, also via being willing to cut a good waiter some slack on a bad day, general "my boss is glad to see me because I am so guuuud", etc)
me: bigger tip = waiter: makes life easier financially (even if only a little bit), e.g., can get him/herself something they don't have to cook on way home from work -> don't have to do dishes tonight after long shift -> more time to spend on college essay, etc. and also less likely to burn self on stove because too tired + psychological boost too
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I carry my own set of Sara scales in my head to keep track of whether I am making the universe on par a better or worse place, in my judgment. It is a tedious yet awesome responsibility, thus (in part) the general air of distraction. I'm trying not to die in one of the downswings, and I'm trying to make the general trend upwards just in case.
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In an ideal world, though, the financial benefit of a big tip could be achieved more efficiently (and in a long-term, amplified way) by complimenting the employee to the manager, eventually resulting in a salary increase for the employee.
Tipping as a mechanism makes this scenario impossible.
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quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: I've let bad tippers sit before. The first two or three times I saw them, they left less than 10%, so the next times I saw them I didn't bother rushing. They got frustrated, kept trying to get my attention, and I smiled and said I'd be right with them, then promptly did other work I needed to do. By the end of the night, they're frustrated, didn't have a good experience, and.... left the same bad tip they left the first two times with good service.
Letting a customer "sit" does not always have to do with knowledge of their tipping history. I've been made to sit in restaurants where I have never been before (therefore, the waitstaff do not know how I tip) while parties who were seated after me get served. My policy is that if those who were seated after me get initial service before I do...menus, drinks...I walk out of the restaurant. I've done that a few times.
I've noticed that being made to sit often correlates with the makeup of the party, that parties of exclusively women often get slower, shoddier service than parties containing all men or mixed men and women. Perhaps it is assumed that men tip better than women do. I'm afraid that waitstaff that makes that assumption and provides variable service based on it are not doing their job correctly, and might well be losing business for themselves and their bosses. And more than just my business, because I am a great believer in word of mouth and will tell my friends if I got bad service at a restaurant.
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posted
What I hate about tipping is the inherent unfairness of it.
Given the same circumstances, an attractive waiter/waitress will always get more than un-attractive waiter/waitress.
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posted
I just leave a big nugget of gold on the table for good servers and a dead possum for the bad ones.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: Wow, Osty. There so much I take exception to in your post that I don't know where to start.
First the idea of applied risk. Either you haven't read anything anyone's said about a social contract and acting contrary to reasonable social expectations, or you've ignored it. Either way, I'm not repeating it here. Scroll back.
Second, don't compare being a substitute teacher to being a server. I've done both for about equal parts of my life (almost two years of each), and they are in no way similar, or have anything close to the same amount of financial risk.
A substitute teacher's pay is not based on quality of service, at all (though it's a testament to you doing your job properly that you think it is, so I'll commend you on a job well done). For every sub who actually does their job and follows the lesson plans, there's another who sits in the room with a newspaper ignoring the lesson plans completely and getting the same pay. If you're registered in a large school district, they'll need people almost every day - if you're not, then you can register in several school districts and accept or decline jobs as you like.
Also, no matter what happens in the classroom to make life more difficult (lack of lesson plans, student behavior, assemblies, fire drills, bomb scares, etc), you still make the same wage. The only "applied risk" a sub has is school cancellation, due to weather for instance.
quote:That being said, I also would like to approach the fact of the statement of so many things being out of the control of the wait staff. That is totally false.
This makes me think more that it wasn't that you didn't read the social contract comments, but ignored them. Because you also seem to be ignoring (actually directly contradicting) the comments from hatrackers who wait tables (and have waited tables) with direct experience telling you otherwise.
Are you calling us all liars, or do you think you somehow know better than people who have actually done the job?
First let me say it is an implied risk. The wait staff took the job knowing the salary and the implied assumption that they would make at least minimum wage from tips. Any service person that does not believe this has their head stuck in the clouds. And I was not compairing being a substitute teacher directly to being a service person, but I was using it to clearly explain how implied risk works. But I will say, my work does depend on the job I do that day. Teacher here can request the substitute they get and often do, so the bad ones do not get work and eventually fall off the system. Just as tipping should work for bad servers, they won't make enough off their tips and will stop working as a server.
Finally, not only have I worked as a server and a delivery person. I know what it is like to grow up depending on my mother making tips. However, my mothers outlook on it was amazingly different. She know some of those people who left a quarter on here table for $10.00 service thought they were tipping very high. She was happy for every little cent she got to put into her tip jar because she knew she earned it by doing good service. She taught that to me and when I became a server, I felt the same way.
So be a little careful before you assume when you read something you know exactly what you read. Attacking me for not knowing the service industry was not the right move flyingcow, because to me when you say I come from a long line of something, it means you are experienced in that line too other wise you are the end of that long line!
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posted
I would also like to take a moment to say that tipping is a social contract would be totally incorrect. Since a contract is upholdable by law, tipping can not be considered a social contract. Maybe a social expectation, but not a contract. I would love to see the service people get laughed out of court for suing someone for not tipping them.
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quote:Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source Main Entry: so·cial contract Function: noun : an actual or hypothetical agreement among individuals forming an organized society or between the community and the ruler that defines and limits the rights and duties of each
A social contract is not necessarily enforcable by law.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Do you tip the guy giving you an oil change?
No but then, most mechanics make better than minimum wage. In fact, many mechanics make much better than minimum wage.
I do, however, tip: 1)Cab Drivers 2)Bell Hops 3)Movers 4)The Newspaper Guy 5)My Postal Carrier (at Christmas) 6)Various and sundry delivery type people
There are probably more, but I'm sick and I'm having trouble thinking.
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quote:That being said, I also would like to approach the fact of the statement of so many things being out of the control of the wait staff. That is totally false.
quote:Finally, not only have I worked as a server and a delivery person.
So, having worked as a server, you also say that it is "totally false" that many things are out of the control of the waitstaff?
I'm curious in what environment you worked that 100% of all things that happened in the restaurant to negatively impact a customer's experience were direclty controlled by the server.
quote:So be a little careful before you assume when you read something you know exactly what you read.
I'd take a little of your own advice. Ask yourself where in your post you ever mentioned anything about working as a server, and read your own comments to see they are all from a customer's perspective.
quote: Attacking me for not knowing the service industry was not the right move flyingcow
When you directly contradict my own personal experience, as well as the personal experience of others who wait tables on this board, I certainly will question your knowledge of the service industry.
Especially when you make comments like food was too cold because it sat too long - which is actually the opposite of reality in most larger establishments. Food ordinarily gets too hot and dried out if it sits too long, because it's sitting in the server window under heat lamps.
If two astronomers are talking, and one mentions the planet Gurgleblat, the other is certainly going to question the first's experience and credentials.
quote:And I was not compairing being a substitute teacher directly to being a service person, but I was using it to clearly explain how implied risk works.
Comparing them at all, directly or indirectly, is about as absurd as Tom's comparison between servers and mechanics. You might as well compare a union carpenter with a street performer.
quote:But I will say, my work does depend on the job I do that day.
I'm curious where you work that subs are in such abundant supply that a given teacher can always get the person they ask for and that there are always enough subs to go around.
In my experience (two years as a sub, and three years as a full time teacher) good subs are as rare as hen's teeth, and subs in general are always in short supply. Teachers cover absent coworkers' classes on their off periods almost as often as there's an actual sub available.
For a sub to find work in my area, they need 60 credits, a clean criminal record, and a pulse. Barring a lack of one of those three things, they'll make their guaranteed per diem even if they just hand out word searches in every class while doing a crossword puzzle.
Granted, your area may not suffer from these problems. I'm curious, though, where that area is.
I'm also curious, as mentioned above, what sort of dining environment you served in that deviated so far from the environments others on this board have served in.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:No but then, most mechanics make better than minimum wage.
Like I said: charity. If you tip servers because they don't make enough money, if the distinction between servers and mechanics is that mechanics are paid more than minimum wage already, tipping is charity.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
It hasn't been mentioned at all in this thread, so i'm guessing what i heard was only a rumor; that is, that servers out in california ARE paid minimum wage. I was told this by a number of people over the last couple of years....not true?
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
1. I worked in a dinner that was individual ran, not warming lights in the kitchen. An order came up you grabbed it and got it out or it did not. But my point about the plate, if the place was cold there server knew the food was cold and they are in control of that.
Servers are in control of what happens if they know how to do their job flying cow. I often told the chef I would not serve something because it did not look right or was not satisfactory to be taken to the floor. I never said that things were in %100 control of the server, but I said a server has more control that you are leaving this board to think. If you don't then your resturant experience is different that mine. Sorry but I am sure different places run differently, or maybe I could read people better when I was waiting. I dunno.
2. I am not comparing the job between what a waitress does and a substitute teacher. I am explaining implied risk. Both jobs are infact taking in an implied risk. If you do not believe that wait staffing is an applied risk, then you were not aware of the job when you took it. Because if someone offers you 2.30 and hour, one would say but that is not minimum wage. But wait people do not, they go yeah but I will be getting tips. They take on the risk that they will be getting tips. And mine is a larger risk than that of a wait staff. If that phone doesn't ring, I don't work and I get no money. If wait staff are scheduled to work and do not make 8% of the gross reciepts from the restaurant in tips, the restaurant is required to make the difference up. (That is IRS law). That is not 8% of that wait person's clients. That is 8% of the entire gross take of the restaurant that shift.
I love the arguement that Tom brings up about the mechanic because everybodies reply is I know how much they make. Well then shouldn't you tip the Walmart worker? They make minimum wage. Where as most resturant workers I know, make $8-9 an hour with their tips even when they have to deal with bad tippers.
And yes, where I live there is an abudance of subs. On average, %15 of the subs fall off the list every year because they do not get enough work. So if you are not doing a good job, you more than likely will not work. I do not know a sub on the list that can afford to sit at a desk and read the paper or do puzzles.
I do love the statement of the waiter who went to the people place of work and harrassed them, because to me that shows that that waiter was unknowledged about his job. If he recieved no tips that night, by Federal law he is required to receive 8% of the gross income the restaurant made that night from the restaurant. And I as an employee of that business would have had the cops called and him arrested for harassment. That waiter had no right to go and harass those people. It may have felt good, but it was still legally wrong. What those in the resturant did, was just ethically wrong.
But my argument is not against tipping. If you go back and read the posts, you will see I said I tip. But for it to be a tip, I must decide what I will tip. Once that power is taken from me it is no longer gratuity. That is my problem with any resturant adding a 20% gratuity onto a bill.
Posts: 224 | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:Restaurateurs said they were particularly disappointed that the minimum wage jump would mainly help sometimes well-paid waiters rather than hourly kitchen workers, who generally earn wages that are above the minimum. The California Restaurant Assn. had advocated that hourly wages be frozen at $6.75 for the 400,000 tipped employees, who earn on average $25 to $35 an hour in tips, said association President Jot Condie.
quote:Originally posted by Leonide: It hasn't been mentioned at all in this thread, so i'm guessing what i heard was only a rumor; that is, that servers out in california ARE paid minimum wage. I was told this by a number of people over the last couple of years....not true?
I've been mentioning it. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:I do love the statement of the waiter who went to the people place of work and harrassed them, because to me that shows that that waiter was unknowledged about his job. If he recieved no tips that night, by Federal law he is required to receive 8% of the gross income the restaurant made that night from the restaurant.
Not at all true. As long as his weekly wage came out to higher than 8%, the restaurant needs to do nothing. It's not on a night by night basis. That's like telling a restaurant "I didn't get a table this hour, so you need to pay me my extra $3".
quote:Servers are in control of what happens if they know how to do their job flying cow.
I'm glad you can control the weather and whether outside sections are open, and whether there is a long wait for a seat, or whether the restaurant is very loud or if there's a crying child at the next table, or whether a person gets sat in a section near the bathroom, or whether someone gets sat in a section near a leaky roof when all other tables are filled, or whether the chef puts salt in a dish with a request of no salt clearly written, or whether the bartender puts Smirnoff in a drink intsead of Grey Goose (or Razmatazz instead of Chambord).
I'm glad you can control getting four parties sat all at once and can still give each the same service you would normally, and that you can taste all the drinks before you give them to your tables so you can make sure they're made properly. I'm glad you can control the speed food comes out of the kitchen when the restaurant is slammed, and that you never have to wait for a bartender with a backlog of drink orders.
I'm further glad the computer order taking system doesn't ever go down, or that the printers in the kitchen run out of paper, or that the credit card machine jams or runs out of paper, or that tickets printed off the machine don't get stuck together or lost in the kitchen.
I'm certainly glad all of these factors have always been under your control. Or do you think that they are just so rare as to be negligible?
I could be wrong, but it sounds like you've worked in a very small establishment where one server (or two) run a small room. That is a very, ver different world than a large restaurant with 15-20 servers, 2-3 food runners, several kitchen stations, and a computer system designed to allow them all to communicate.
And further, I've never said that nothing is within the server's control. I was hoping to get people to think about why a certain dining experience was less than expected (and whether or not such factors were within or without the server's control) before deciding on tip.
[Can't write any more now, because I have to run out. I'll try to post more later, specifically to address the "all jobs should be treated the same way, mechanic or server or otherwise" line of thinking)
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
It's also worth pointing out that, given the whole list of things out of the server's control, tipping a server to guarantee a pleasant experience seems to be an impractical option.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
1. You stated, that I must tip a waiter/waitress because I know they are not making enough money. Yet, I know if nobody tipped in a restaurant at all, that Wait person will still earn 8% of the restaurants gross income for that pay period. So your argument stands no ground. Also, if your argument is that a wait person does not make minimum wage, why should I be force to tip more than $5.15. I would have paid that person the minimum wage for the hour I was in that restaurant. Again I state, I know that the person in Wal-mart is only making minimum wage, so I should have to tip them to make up the difference in their salary too. But wait, a doctor makes more then I do so they should have to tip me to make that even out. If tipping was about standards of pay, then a tip would not be standardized as a percentage but rather a straight amount.
2. I again state, I know that servers are not 100% in control of everything, but servers have more control than what you are leading this board believe. Your stament of what you have control over basically states all you can control is that the food is taken to the table. I keep in mind what is in the servers control when I tip, I agree everyone should.
3. A tip (gratuity) is no longer a tip when it is forced, it is a service charge. (The main argument of this topic. See the opening statement and article!)
4. It is funny that anywhere I search the words tip or gratuity, it is a gift.
MSN Encarta: gratuity - money given in appreciation: a small gift, usually of money, given to somebody such as a waiter as thanks for service given
Dictionary.com: 1. a gift of money, over and above payment due for service, as to a waiter or bellhop; tip. 2. something given without claim or demand
So I would say somewhere, you expectation of a tip got skewed to think that it was granted to you. To me a gift is not a requirement. Otherwise I am out many required gifts over my lifetime and I guess I should just start demanding those people give them to me!
Posts: 224 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Forgive me, I skipped a couple pages (this thread has gotten away from me a bit).
Tom -
Barring your serverless restaurant idea, what's your solution to end tipping? Raise food prices and pay servers a fair wage? I'm not knocking the idea, just attempting to clarify.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: ... 400,000 tipped employees, who earn on average $25 to $35 an hour in tips...
[/QUOTE]
So I guess the arguments that our servers deserve tips because they are badly paid are a bit unfounded. A much better target for our charity (at least in North America) would seem to be people who make minimum wage (with no tips) than servers.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Servers make $2.65 where I work, not $6.75. Things are too different on a state by state basis for data like that to be useful in a broad discussion on the subject, imo.
And everything is more expensive in California. Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:And everything is more expensive in California.
Yes; consider that a good starting point for an actual living wage for, say, a single mom with a kid who has a mother willing to watch the kid for free while she works so she doesn't have to pay for childcare, just food, rent, gas, clothes, etc., is probably, oh, about $13-$14/hour.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:1. You stated, that I must tip a waiter/waitress because I know they are not making enough money.
No, I'm not saying you must do anything. Before you make comments criticizing reading comprehension ("So be a little careful before you assume when you read something you know exactly what you read.") you might want to pay closer attention.
I'm not advocating a mandatory tip. In fact, I've said on several occasions in this thread that you're not required to tip at all. However, the consequences of that are possibly being labeled as a "jerk" (or far worse). Refusing to tip is not a socially considerate thing to do, and is in fact behavior that deviates significantly from the norm. It is taken by many servers as an insult and, to some, worthy of retaliation. "Bad tipping" such as less than 10% is also a departure from the norm and also not socially considerate.
quote:Yet, I know if nobody tipped in a restaurant at all, that Wait person will still earn 8% of the restaurants gross income for that pay period. So your argument stands no ground.
You don't seem to understand this law. The waitperson may earn 8% of their total sales, but not 8% of the restaurant's gross income. I'm also not clear what argument stands no ground because of this statement. Do you mean my argument that low/no tipping is inconsiderate and deviating from social norms (a sort of social contract)? Or my argument that you shouldn't blame your servers for things that are beyond their control?
Find me what argument you're trying to refute, please, because I don't think I ever said that servers don't make enough money. I made plenty of money serving - but I still feel that those who left low/no tips are selfish and/or ignorant.
quote:Also, if your argument is that a wait person does not make minimum wage, why should I be force to tip more than $5.15. I would have paid that person the minimum wage for the hour I was in that restaurant.
Servers get paid a lower-than-minimum wage with the understanding that tips will cover more than the difference. Not the hope, but the understanding. If it was a hope, such as "I hope I win the lottery", then no one would do it. It's an understanding that the average server makes better than minimum wage and makes an average of 15% or so in tips.
Servers don't do a job with that much work and stress for minimum wage. The understanding of the job, which I don't think is arguable in the United States, is that you will make a small wage and have an average (15% or so) amount of tips. Based on that understanding, people take the job.
And quite honestly, as I'm sure you know from your experience, most servers make an average of 15% or more. I don't think I've ever argued that they don't, or that they're underpaid (edit: that is, after tips are included). I have argued that given an average/expected quality of service, customers that tip above are considered generous, those who tip below are considered cheap - and that unless the service was truly atrocious, you should at least leave something.
quote:Again I state, I know that the person in Wal-mart is only making minimum wage, so I should have to tip them to make up the difference in their salary too. But wait, a doctor makes more then I do so they should have to tip me to make that even out. If tipping was about standards of pay, then a tip would not be standardized as a percentage but rather a straight amount.
Never said it was. It's about a social understanding that when you walk into a restaurant and sit down at a table, you are expected to leave some sort of tip/compensation for the server's efforts. If you're arguing that that is not standard social understanding, then you're telling me that's not what usually happens 99/100 times or more.
When you walk into Walmart, you have a different set of expectations (that is, if you walk into Walmart at all, which I don't, but that's a whole different thread). When you go to the doctor, you have a different set of expectations. I still need to get into that in my response to Tom, so I'm not going to address it here yet.
quote:2. I again state, I know that servers are not 100% in control of everything, but servers have more control than what you are leading this board believe. Your stament of what you have control over basically states all you can control is that the food is taken to the table. I keep in mind what is in the servers control when I tip, I agree everyone should.
Your last sentence is spot on, and all I'm trying to say. Keep in mind what is in the server's control when you tip. For instance, if you are sat too close to the noisy tables near the bar? Blame your host, not your server.
The larger the restaurant, the more control is taken from the individual server's hands. In a small environment where there is a single chef and you work both bar and tables and the patrons seat themselves, you have a *lot* of control over the environment. In this situation, most of what goes wrong short of the food's quality itself is the server's responsibility.
However, in a larger environment with 15-20 servers on duty, four or more chefs, three hosts, two floor managers, three bartenders, and several runners, bussers, and expediters, more and more is taken from the server's control. If you're not making the drinks yourself, you have to trust in your bartender. If you're not bussing the tables yourself, you have to trust in your bussers. If you're not running the food yourself, you have to trust in your food runners.
Normally in these environments, there are also computer systems to take into consideration and all the technical problems that come along with them.
Even so, I'd say 95% of the time things go great and you get at least an average experience. However, when the system breaks down, there are many more links in the chain that could be responsible in a larger restaurant than in a small one.
In a large restaurant, the service a waiter provides a table is affected in large part by his support staff's job performance. In a small restaurant, a waiter has few if any support staff that affect his service quality.
quote:3. A tip (gratuity) is no longer a tip when it is forced, it is a service charge. (The main argument of this topic. See the opening statement and article!)
I agree with the first sentence, but your parenthetical is way off.
I posted the first post and started this thread, and nowhere in that post did I argue that all restaurants should adopt a 20% forced gratuity. I simply posted an article I found interesting and asked for the board's opinion. In fact, I said I didn't think I would support such a move in my second post and offered the alternative of placing info cards on tables.
So, it's not the main argument of this topic, especially not when you reference the opening statement as proof that it is.
Again, throwing reading comprehension stones doesn't suit your glass house.
quote:4. It is funny that anywhere I search the words tip or gratuity, it is a gift.... So I would say somewhere, you expectation of a tip got skewed to think that it was granted to you.
See the Santa comparison.
Nowhere is it necessary or required that a person dressed up in a Santa suit with a bag full of wrapped gifts visiting an orphanage *has* to give out any gifts. It's not required. As you say, they're gifts after all.
However, by his actions, he has set up an expectation. By acting counter to that expectation, he is being at best inconsiderate and at worst being a word I can't say on a family forum.
Based on a massive, nonquantifiable amount of examples, customers in restaurants in the USA leave tips. It has become custom and common practice - though it is by no means mandatory. By the weight of such a massive amount of previous example events, customers who sit down at a table in a restaurant and order food are expected to follow suit.
Pavlov learned that past experience sets up future expectation. It's a natural process. More and more experience that aligns with expectation reinforces that expectation.
When you introduce yourself to someone, they acknowledge you in some way - it's an expectation based on past experience that they will. When they ignore you completely and give no response, you note their deviation from social norms and likely label them as rude or inconsiderate.
Sitting in a restaurant sets up a social expectation that you are well aware of. Acting counter to that expecttion will likely label you as rude or inconsiderate.
I don't see how that's so hard to grasp.
I'll get to Tom in my next post. Spent way too long on this one this morning and need to do some work.
I promise it is coming, though!
(And, based on previous experience, you are perfectly within your rights to expect a reply, and to think me inconsiderate if I don't give one.)
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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