posted
I usually tip 20% because I usually eat with a three year old who not infrequently makes a bit of a mess. I may tip less if the service is particularly poor.
I don't agree with a mandatory gratuity unless there's a large party, where in makes sense from both sides (the waiter or waitress doesn't get skimped for backbreaking work, and the party doesn't have to fiddle with calculations if the check is being split up in weird ways.)
Then again, it wouldn't break my heart to see restaurants just pay their staff a living wage. I visited some people in Germany a few years ago and tipping customs came up in conversation; the locals thought the American customs were insane.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
They dont' tip in Hong Kong either. Well the foreigners do, but the waiters/waitresses are not docked pay if they get tipped, its VERY hard to tip in Mainland China or Taiwan, accepting monetary gifts is a very touchy subject, but if you learn the nuances I've never had more fun tipping. Its so nice to tip when the waiter is genuinely convinced his good service is not worthy of such excess.
Patrons often yell at each other (good naturely) about how embarassed they are that somebody presumed to pay the bill without consulting them, arguements about who GETS to pay the bill prevail most of the time.
The Chinese are completely amazed when a crafty American excuses themselves to the bathroom and takes a waiter aside saying (before anyone has even ordered) "If you make sure <b>I</b> pay the bill, I will tip you VERY well"
The look of consternation when the waiter responds to bill requests, "Mr So and So has already paid." is priceless
I love arguing about being allowed to be generous much more than I like arguing about how much I am obligated to tip.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
About 12 years ago, when I was out with my friends, and the bill came, we pooled our money and ended up with way too much money.
These days, with a different group of friends, that are about 8 years younger on average than my previous group, the problem is making sure everyone pays enough.
Posts: 454 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:I am not paying him more out of my salary than I make.
This is a pretty selfish statement for him to make - and if that's his attitude, I would hope he'd only ever eat at restaurants well within his means.
I mean, say he makes $15 per hour and he goes out to a fancy restaurant with his significant other for his anniversary - ordering drinks, and a bottle of champagne to celebrate. Let's say they eat for an hour, and the bill comes to $150. Does he only give $15 (10%)?
What if it was a double date and the tip came to $300, again, does he still only put in $15 (5%)?
Does that waiter deserve to make $45 an hour? And on the other side- does the waitress working at IHOP late shift with one or two tables really deserve to only make like $4 an hour? (And I have been to IHOP with friends were 15% would work out to be that little and the restaurant was completely empty- we ended up tipping like 50% then).
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Perhaps most of the people in this thread really do tip based on what their service was like, I don't know. I do know, based on my experience waiting tables, that the majority of the population does not do this. Good tippers almost always tip well, and a server has to be awful in order for them to tip less. Bad tippers always tip badly and pretty much never increase what they leave.
Frankly, people who live on a budget and can't afford to tip, shouldn't go to restaurants where they are expected to.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
If someone says they are on a budget and can only tip x amount, the waiter still has made x more than he would have had the person not come in.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Most of the people in this thread have been saying that they shouldn't be responsible for paying their server at a restaurant because that is the restaurant's responsibility. Let's try looking at it from another angle.
If you enter a restaurant where you will have a server, we can assume that you know that server lives on the tips that he or she makes waiting tables. As such, knowing that what you "pay" the server is essential to their ability to pay bills, rent etc. you are entering into a contract with the server that you will pay them for their services. If you go to a restaurant, eat a meal and then leave either no tip or a very small tip because you "cannot afford" to leave a better tip, then depending on the time of day, you may or may not have helped the server.
If you are eating at a time of day when the restaurant is relatively empty and the server probably wouldn't have had another table in your place, then yes, you have increased what the server would have made for the day if you weren't there. However, if you are eating at a time when there is a wait, and the server could have had another table in your place, one that might have paid or paid better, then you have taken money from the server's pocket.
If you really can't "afford" to tip, then you probably also can't "afford" to eat at a restaurant. I almost never ate out during the year when I waited tables. The few times I did, I went with my roommate who dragged me out with her by agreeing to pay because I couldn't afford to. Why didn't I go out? Because, I couldn't afford to tip the server at the restaurant where I would be eating and since that person lived (at least in part) on what I would be leaving for them it wasn't fair of me to take their time if I couldn't pay them for it.
Habitually poor tippers aren't going to get the best service either. Despite what most poor tippers think, servers do remember what you look like. Some servers will refuse to wait on habitually poor tippers. I know that, while I was never deliberately rude to a poor tipper and I never deliberatly screwed up a habitually poor tipper's order, I wasn't as attentive with a habitually poor tipper as I was with a customer that I knew would tip well, or with a customer that I had never served before. It's a cycle. If I know that you won't tip me, or won't tip me well even if I do my best for you, and another customer whom I have either never served before or whom I know to be a good tipper is sat at another table in my section, I am going to pay more attention to them than I will to you.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:As such, knowing that what you "pay" the server is essential to their ability to pay bills, rent etc. you are entering into a contract with the server that you will pay them for their services.
That's not remotely true. There's no implied contract for service; the server is not MY employee. If I hired someone to follow me from restaurant to restaurant and deliver food from kitchens to my table, THAT would be my responsibility. In the normal situation, though, the server is an employee of the restaurant, and I am not remotely obligated to him for anything.
My knowledge of the server's financial situation does not mean I'm obligated to tip; it merely means that I am made acutely aware that my tip is in fact charity that props up an exploitative situation.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
My point (which was specifically directed toward the "cannot afford to tip" argument in case I didn't make that clear) is that if you go into a restaurant knowing that the server lives on their tips, and also knowing before you sit down to eat that you are not going to tip the server you should not eat there.
If you do not agree with the current way that gratuity works then don't eat at restaurants where servers work on gratuity. If you had crummy service and choose not to tip for that reason, then that's fine, but don't go into a restaurant where tipping is how the servers get paid (and as my post on page 2 states, most servers get just enough in their paychecks to cover the taxes on their tips plus a meal at McDonalds) planning on not tipping your server. And if you don't tip simply because you don't believe in tipping, don't act shocked when you get bad service from servers at restaurants you frequent. No server is going to work their best for you if they know you aren't going to tip them. It's just a fact.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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This is why I hate the entire system of tipping -- there's an "understood" agreement, but because it's just understood, it's very easy for the two parties to not agree on what the agreement is.
Tell me how much it costs for me to eat your food in your restaurant, and let me choose to purchase it or not.
Come to Australia.
(I find the idea of tipping very alien, and this discussion fascinating.)
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I think tipping should be worked into higher education.
Take professor's salaries out of our tuition and allow us to tip professors according to how we think our class went. If it sucks, I'll tip them low, and it'll encourage them to teach better in the future. If the class was phenomenal, then I'll tip better, but probably not, since I'm a poor college student .
I think a 15% tip automatically added onto the bill, or built into the price of the food, is fair. Whatever you want to tip above that is your business, but other than raising the price of food by a fair percentage and funneling that money to server paychecks, I don't see how you solve the problem.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: The trick here is not that customers can pay more or less, but that they can pay nothing.
They can, essentially, jump out of a cab without paying because they didn't like the driver's hat. The cabbie did the work, put their bags in the trunk, drove where they wanted, and obeyed all traffic laws - shouldn't he be guaranteed some compensation for his service? Of course, and he is.
The problem with this analogy is that most cabbies, unless they are working for themselves, are in much the same position as servers -- a large chunk of their pay is the tip. (In this country, at least. In other countries, just as tipping waitstaff is unusual, so is tipping cabbies, In Israel, cabbies expect to give you back change -- even if it's a small amount. Here, the cabbies assume you're just tipping them, unless you ask for change.)
I think their base rate may be higher than a server's but even so, most of the fare does NOT go to the driver. So jumping out of the cab without paying anything is analogous to stiffing not only the server, but the restaurant.
I tip cabbies (with the notable exception of the horrifying one I have described elsewhere) -- in Israel as well as here. I tip waitstaff and other service providers too (manicurists, for example). As it happens, I was always taught that 15% is appropriate for reasonable service, and so I usually tip just over that. I would not like having an automatic 20% gratuity added to the bill -- for 20% I want above-average service. (And when I have gotten it, I have tipped accordingly.)
But just like Porter, I would prefer if tipping were eliminated, and the true price of the food were reflected on the menu and bill.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I don't go to restaurants all that often, and when I do, I like to make it a new experience. So, I rarely went to any restaurant often enough for my tipping habits to have an effect.
However, the place where I lived before here had a fantastic sushi restaurant that I'm still trying to replace. I would go about once every two weeks, and I noticed that they were happy to see me. It was such a weird experience.
However, I didn't like it. It wasn't a friendship - I don't want a relationship with my server. I don't want the obligations of it. I just want sushi. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I want the relationship. I like it when I have not only a favorite restaurant, but a favorite meal at that restaurant. Along with a favorite server.
I like ordering 'the usual'. It makes me feel safe and accepted.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I find the familiarity comforting. Plus, people who know me like me better than people meeting me for the first time. And it's nice to be liked.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:If someone says they are on a budget and can only tip x amount, the waiter still has made x more than he would have had the person not come in.
Only if the restaurant was dead, and the table would have been empty otherwise. If there was another party that could have sat at that table, the waiter has less than he would have made had the person not come in.
quote:I think their base rate may be higher than a server's but even so, most of the fare does NOT go to the driver. So jumping out of the cab without paying anything is analogous to stiffing not only the server, but the restaurant.
I lived with a cabbie in Atlanta. He had to turn over an amount of money based on his recorded trips and mileage at the end of the night. A good chunk of his money was tips, a small chunk of his money were trips he made off the books, and a smaller part of his money was his wage.
(Granted, he owned his own cab and worked as an affiliate to a company - I'm sure cabbies who rent cab time have a harder time making ends meet.)
Servers don't get that second (albeit unethical) option, of course. Though people who skip out on tabs (or cabs) have the cost of that service come out of their server's (or cabbie's) pocket, more often than not.
quote:Come to Australia.
(I find the idea of tipping very alien, and this discussion fascinating.)
This was the same in Ireland (and to a large extent, England and Scotland) - there was no tipping culture. Servers and bartenders got paid a standard wage, and you paid the price of the food/drink and that was that. Some american's tipped, but they got funny looks when they did. The most an Irish person would leave would be whatever small coins they didn't want to stuff into their pockets.
It was the reason I took office work instead of bar work when I worked over there. I knew I couldn't both live and travel on a bar/server salary - whereas I could (barely) working as a bartender at home (but not really as a server).
quote:My knowledge of the server's financial situation does not mean I'm obligated to tip; it merely means that I am made acutely aware that my tip is in fact charity that props up an exploitative situation.
This attitude is part of the reason I gave up bartending/serving. Customers that think that tipping is some sort of charity, and that they're doing the server a favor. That the tip is bonus above and beyond their standard salary, and that servers need to go above and beyond for any tip at all.
Tipping is a server's salary (or at least 85% of it) and not any sort of charity or bonus - even at standard/expected tips of 15%, a server is likely only doing slightly better than minimum wage. While tipping is not a requirement by law, to give no tip (or to tip 10% or less) is either incredibly ignorant or incredibly selfish, and those that habitually do so should simply stop patronizing restaurants that use servers.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:I find the familiarity comforting. Plus, people who know me like me better than people meeting me for the first time. And it's nice to be liked.
I enjoy both situations--there are nice things about having a restaurant where the cook starts putting together a meal for you when she sees you, and then comes over to chat for a bit while you're eating, and the server brings you tea in a chipped mug that doesn't match the ones they serve to ordinary customers, but is better insulated and holds about five times as much liquid.
There are also nice things about being a stranger and being left alone.
Which one I seek out depends on my mood at the time.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Hmm...in restaurants, I always prefer to be left alone. If I'm by myself, then I'm thinking or reading, and if I'm with someone, I want to talk to them. I go to restaurants because I can't make sushi at home and I like being served, but I don't want to sociable when I'm thinking about something else.
I'm friendly, I swear. I make friends somewhat easily and I really like people. I like being social. It's like I'm either ready for it or I'm not, though, and if I am, I don't generally seek friends for whom I'm responsible for paying a salary. It makes me kind of uncomfortable.
Thank heavens I don't have a life where I have a nanny or gardeners or a housekeeper. To avoid being a terrible boss I'd probably have to adjust the above mindset.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
That's the thing: I don't want to associate with people I'm paying to do things for me. If they're providing me an essential paid service, they are by definition not my friends.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I don't know if that's "by definition" - but I can understand keeping a certain difference between friends and people you are paying.
I think I can be friends with developers I freelance for. And by the same token, I feel that I can ask friends to freelance write for products I am developing.
I have gone to restaurants where friends have waited tables or tended bar, and I have had friends come to restaurants I've worked at.
I don't think friendship and payment for service is mutually exclusive.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I have had friends as my servers before, but they were my friends first. And, to be honest, it was a little awkward for me. When I was a leader for the Young Women one of our girls was a waitress at a local restaurant, and we always left a humongous tip - 50% or more. She was saving for college!
That wasn't quite a friendship, though - I was the adult. It wasn't give and take like a real friendship is, and I think introducing money into that give and take makes things sticky.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Tipping is only starting to become standard in the higher priced restaurants and hotels here. Unfortunately, for some places, the gratuity is written into the bill.
I say unfortunately because it's an unknown for anyone new to the restaurant or who hasn't eaten there in a while. It's not mentioned upfront. I also say unfortunately because service here almost universally sucks. The best service here is on par with among the worst service I've received in Canada. Complaints on anything are met with scorn and hostility, never with change or adjusted bills or better food or better service.
I'm appalled at the level of service I've received here. Had it been Canada, I probably would have done a LOT of yelling - it was that bad. But here, it only makes matters worse.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I have, and have had for the last few years, good friends who are bartenders. Typically, I tip more or less than my normal amount depending on what courtesies they extend me because of our friendship. In other words, if they hook me up with free drinks, I leave a large tip (like, on the order of the price of the drinks). If they give me no special treatment, then I tip them as I would a regular bartender (which is pretty good).
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
See, quid, that's why I think all tipping customs/policies/expecatations should be written and available at all tables in the restaurant - or at worst, on each menu.
If a restaurant is just a standard, run of the mill one, there should be a disclaimer saying:
"Minimum wage for a server in this state is XXX. Your server's salary is XXX. Servers in this establishment rely on tips as their primary income, so please take this into consideration. It is customary to leave at least 15% gratuity, and 18% gratuity may be added for parties of 6 or more."
If a restaurant wants to go above and beyond, they could change the numbers involved, or add other "tip education" pointers.
I think I would support legislation that required restaurants to publish the wage they pay their servers. Maybe it would force them to start paying something closer to a fair wage if people kept reading that their servers were paid $2.18 or $2.30 per hour.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Here, well, everyone's paid crap wages, but restaurants that pad gratuity onto the bill pay the servers the same wage they normally would with or without tips. I'm not actually convinced that in those cases the tip would even go to the server. But things here are seriously messed up anyway.
Personally, I'm all for restaurants paying ALL their staff a living wage and hike up the bills accordingly, leaving tips to be rewards for good service, but not expected or demanded.
In Canada, servers have the same minimum wage rate apply to them as it does to every single other industry. Tips are a bonus. That makes more sense to me.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
They're drinks that I don't pay for, hence 'free'. There is no profit on free drinks, so the bartender can't pocket it.
Buybacks are common at most bars, especially for regulars and big tippers/spenders. This is just like that, except the bartender substitutes personal knowledge of me for time invested sitting at the bar, because he knows I'll give that money back both to him and to the bar.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:In other words, if they hook me up with free drinks, I leave a large tip (like, on the order of the price of the drinks).
Those aren't free drinks. They're drinks for which the bartender pockets the entire profit.
That is kind of true. When I give/have gotten free drinks it is understood that it's not being rung up, but payment is still expected in the tip. Even with a table that doesn't know the server, if you get something for free, you should agknowledge that in the tip.
quote:My knowledge of the server's financial situation does not mean I'm obligated to tip; it merely means that I am made acutely aware that my tip is in fact charity that props up an exploitative situation.
This kind of attitude is frustrating to no end. It is not, in any way, charity. These are not destitute people with their hands out. They have a job, a job that includes tips as a large majority of the income. They are working for you and restaurant to earn money. To equate servers with the guy on the corner washing your windsheild for quarters is, frankly, very insulting.
Also, I love being a regular at a restaurant or bar. Knowing the people that work there and being friends with them is great. It's like Cheers. I have no problems being friends with people that I'm paying. I also have no problems being friends with people that pay me. I don't think there should be a social barrier between people, just because they are serving you. It's not like they are "the help" and not to be fraternized with. They're people too, often nice people, and it can be viewed as very rude if a person is curt with a person that has served them once every two weeks for the past year. That's just me though.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:But you ARE paying for them, if you're tipping the price of the drinks.
Yes, but the difference is I'm not obligated to. I do it because I'm a nice guy. If I didn't do, that wouldn't substantially change the quantity of free drinks that I got.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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This I like. This is the best reason to tip well, regardless of the service. Why should you tip well? Because it's the nice thing to do. If the server did something that makes you not want to be nice to them, well, ok. But I like people being nice to me, and I find that when I'm nice, people are nice back. It perpetuates a healthy cycle.
It may not be the biggest reason (because servers need the money to live and that is their job so you should pay them), but I believe it is the best. Most of you are nice people and I assume that you tip well most of the time based on that. If you don't tip well, I'm not saying you're being mean, just not really nice. And I like nice people. Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Huh? How is it charity if it's required? Are you being sarcastic and I'm just dense? Dictionary.com only talks about "something given" and "generous acts" for "people in need" and the "poor, ill or helpless."
Paying tips doesn't fall under any of these, as far as I can tell. I suppose it would be charitable if you tipped far more than is customary or necessary.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:While tipping is not a requirement by law, to give no tip (or to tip 10% or less) is either incredibly ignorant or incredibly selfish, and those that habitually do so should simply stop patronizing restaurants that use servers.
No, it's not necessary to tip, but if you don't (and have any understanding of the system), you're a selfish freeloader.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I haven't been to a salon in ages due to lack of time and money, but my (subtle, but present) roots were almost two inches long, so I decided to go to the salon on Pennsylvania avenue near the Library. I had my lunch hour, and I thought it would take maybe slightly longer than that - about an hour and a half, tops.
Oh my stars, but the time we hit an hour and a half he had barely finished putting the foil in my hair. I watched in envy as the stylist across the salon managed to cycle two customers with highlights through while he was still doing mine. Also, I don't think the highlights were dramatic enough - they aren't really what I wanted.
At about the hour and forty-five minute mark he asked me if my work was flexible. "Not really." AAAA!!!
Two hours and fifteen minutes later, I'm paying the check and debating the tip amount. On the one hand, holy crap. On the other, a crappy tip would mean that the two+ hours he spent with me would be worth even less. It's awkward at work and I need to stay later, but my pay isn't affected. So, this thread had an influence. Whether or not it was an influence for good depends, I suppose, on whether you view tips as incentives or transfers of labor costs.
I can tell you, though, that I'm not going back. I viewed him giving me his card at the end as an adorably quixotic act.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:No, it's not necessary to tip, but if you don't (and have any understanding of the system), you're a selfish freeloader.
Or you refuse to support a system that you want to die.
I'm gonna go with both in this case.
Edit to add: I'm gonna go ahead and repost this, with emphasis:
quote: And for those who say that the burden of compensating the servers should not be on the customer, but on the employer, I completely agree. Restaurants should have to pay their servers more, so that you don't have to. It would be great if in a semi-fine dining restaurant a server makes a blanket $12 and hour, and you can tip a couple bucks if you want. That would be ideal. But, unfortunately, that isn't the way it works. I can't change that, you can't change that by not tipping, the server certainly can't change it, so it really doesn't matter.
quote:Or you refuse to support a system that you want to die.
No, see, if you refused to support the system, you'd stop eating out.
Eating out and not tipping continues to support the system, and in fact abuses the system for your own benefit, making you a selfish freeloader. The restaurant doesn't see any loss by that course of action - only the server, who has no power to do anything about it.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Again, I'm not quite understand how it constitutes "freeloading" if a) I'm paying for the service and b) I'm perfectly willing to go get the food myself. The server is providing a service I consider absolutely unnecessary.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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People boycotting tipping is exactly what it'll take to change the system. Once it gets widespread enough, servers will no longer make enough money (since they'll have to rely on their wages, which we all know suck). When servers can't support themselves without tips, they'll find new lines of work. Which will then force owners to either abandon the tipping system altogether or retool the entire restaurant industry to run without servers.
posted
In the meantime, yay! People working to serve us for free! I am sure that exploiting labor is the most efficient engine of change.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
The only more efficient way I can think of would be to get servers to strike. And since that would involve them not working, and not getting paid, and not supporting their families, that would be very hard to do.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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