quote:Originally posted by katharina: I'm not married. I don't have sex.
:blinks: Am I reading this correctly that you are still a virgin at thirty-something? I entirely approve, you understand, it's just rather unusual and I'm wondering if I misunderstood you.
I could list at least a dozen of my friends that fit that bill.
Excellent! Wonderful! I can see I shall have to rephrase, though: "Unusual in my experience".
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I'm confused as to the assumption that men pay for food and women pay for pretty.
Are you dating guys in ripped jeans and t-shirts splattered with paint?
When I go out, and for that matter, when my guy friends go out on dates, they're wearing moderate to somewhat expensive clothes, cologne, maybe gel depending on the guy and spend plenty of time making sure they look their best.
Are you buying new clothes for every date? If so, that's pretty ridiculous. And for that matter, to repeat someone else, guys don't go to the gym? I'm there several days a week (well, less lately since I've been busy) and I'd say the genders are almost equally balanced. The only difference is that the women tend to dominate the cardio area and the men dominate the free weights, generally.
Maybe this is just a generational thing since you're a decade or so older than me?
From my perspective, I have to look nice, in much the same way that girls do, and then on top I have to pay for the evening. I like a girl to show up looking nice, but not "I spent hundreds of dollars just for this date" nice.
I think you're vastly underbalancing this equation.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: Saying that a girl shouldn't have to pay for dinner because she pays to make herself look nice is to express complete naivete about how much money men spend to make themselves attractive to women.
QFT I don't mind paying, but I decide what my motivations are for that, not the women I date. (i.e. paying to make herself look nice)
What about the money of gym memberships? If you assume(not saying you are in this specific instance katharina) all men only date women who spend the time to make themselves attractive, you would also have to take into account that men have to put in the money and effort men put into gyms. We have to make ourselves attractive too! So YOU should pay then. EDIT: Dang, lyrhawn beat me to it.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Speed: I've never lived in a place like that. Do people really take the bus on a date?
People take the subway in NYC.
Kat's profile says she lives in Dallas. Do they have a subway there?
If so, do they meet at the restaurant? Or does the guy take the subway to the girl's house and then go back to the subway to get to the restaurant?
I'm really curious how people do this in general, and how Kat does it in particular. I can't imagine her spending a few hundred dollars on hair, clothes and makeup and then waiting at a bus stop or a subway station to get to a restaurant.
Of course, I've never lived in a city with a subway, so I'm prepared to be surprised by some cultural differences.
Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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By the way, I'm with lem. I've been married for 10 years, and I've never once seriously wished I was dating again.
I never dated anyone too high-maintenance, though. Not that I never paid for a dinner, or kept track of exactly who paid more for dates over the course of a relationship. But even when I had the spare cash, after a date or two I started letting the girl pay for some things, just because I wanted to know if she valued my company as much as I valued hers.
There are some that wouldn't do it. That was a pretty good indication that they weren't for me, so I moved on. It was an efficient way for me to find the best wife I could have imagined.
She doesn't wear much (if any) makeup either, which I found very attractive. Some guys didn't, but I guess that helped her weed out the chumps and find me, too. Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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I care about looks, but not in the usual way, and I have severe quirks. I don't like make-up, and it took me a while to realize that I consider chubbiness as a sign of moral weakness, akin to smoking. I have a WONDERFUL girlfriend(and, yes, striking to boot), but she puts up with a lot. This weekend, we bicycled from Chicago to Indiana for an overnight camping trip at the Indiana Dunes. She has come to enjoy our trips, but the first time she came to know that part of being in a relationship with me was exercising together-- just as naturally as cooking together-- she was horrified. She, thankfully, has converted with gusto. I've come to believe and appreciate that women in good health look better without makeup and in sensible shoes. Eating well, exercising, and moisturizing, it seems to me, becomes the women I date more than any cover-up. I also don't have money, and anyone who spends more than five minutes with me knows that I probably won't ever have money, and I hate talking about money. I'm not terribly good-looking. I'm saying all this as a way to say Yes, you can retain a girlfriend for under 10 dollars a week, but I think it'll only work if you steer her to activities in your budget, and if it comes up, say your piece once and clearly. Few classes of people are more tiresome than cheap people who can't stop talking about money.
quote:There are some that wouldn't do it. That was a pretty good indication that they weren't for me, so I moved on. It was an efficient way for me to find the best wife I could have imagined.
She doesn't wear much (if any) makeup either, which I found very attractive. Some guys didn't, but I guess that helped her weed out the chumps and find me, too.
Yep.
quote:I've never lived in a place like that. Do people really take the bus on a date?
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Strict religions? My excuse is the opportunity hasn't presented itself but I'm trying to figure out how to get it to do that!!!! As I am a heathen.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I pay for dates, gifts, etc. because I want to, generally. Relationships where I felt I had to spend when I didn't want to, I walked away from pretty quickly. But it should be noted that, to me, the purpose of excess money is pretty much to make other people - usually ones I like - happy.
Exactly. I've been dating casually since my last relationship, and with the fun of being single comes my expectation that I'd pay for drinks and covers and so on. Now that I'm starting a new relationship, she and I are splitting costs about evenly.
Dates where I'm paying for most of it is, pretty expressly, a way of picking up a girl. If I like one enough to commit to a relationship, it'd better be on equal terms -- otherwise, I might as well be having fun playing the field.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I'm not married. I don't have sex.
:blinks: Am I reading this correctly that you are still a virgin at thirty-something? I entirely approve, you understand, it's just rather unusual and I'm wondering if I misunderstood you.
I could list at least a dozen of my friends that fit that bill.
Excellent! Wonderful! I can see I shall have to rephrase, though: "Unusual in my experience".
This seems pretty unusual to me as well. I did know a couple back when I was frequenting a rather charismatic bible-thumping church, but even there most of the thirty-somethings weren't virgins. Mostly, they just felt bad about that fact.
And for the record, their appearance did not correlate. This is also my personal experience, but it seems to me that people who want sex can find it, whatever they look like.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: In my experience, guys claim not to care about looks, not want someone to get fixed up, spend money and effort on their looks, but those same guys always end up dating the girls who do. I've seen this happen at least two dozen times with guys I'm friends with, over 3 decades. So my opinion is that guys may not realize it at the time, but they're unaware of their own selection criteria.
I've known guys like that as well. I've also known quite a few, including my husband, who really don't like makeup.
Like some others here, the idea that the guy should pay for the date because the woman is paying to doll her self up really disturbs me. I'm not sure why but the idea that this is some sort of fair trade really strikes me as an incredibly unhealthy attitude.
I do sometimes get really dolled up for a special event. It can be fun. But I don't do it to pay my husband for treating me to dinner. I don't do it so men will find me attractive. I do it because sometimes I enjoy being glamorously beautiful. I do it for me, because sometimes its nice to be Cinderella.
And if I felt I had to get really dolled up to be worth someone's attention, I wouldn't find it fun in the least. I really detest the idea that I might have to spend tons of money on my makeup, clothes and hair to be a desirable companion on a date. Anyone that is so shallow they wouldn't enjoy my company unless I'd put hours into improving how I look, isn't someone I'd ever want to date in the first place.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Ten dollars is entirely appropriate to budget for dating a girlfriend, if you're both in junior high.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2009
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I believe that when you take a girl out to dinner you aught to pay for it. Going to the movies, ice skating, going to a concert, or seeing a play is different, the girl should pay for her own ticket.
I do like it when my girlfriend gets all "dolled up", but she rarely does and shes one of those people who looks stunning without make-up. I am very poor, and my current girlfriend is cool with doing cheap things, tho I do take her to the movies all the time....
BTW I'm an ugly person Posts: 1574 | Registered: May 2008
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Omega M, Can I ask how old you are and what you are currently doing? It makes a difference. If you are a relatively young, going to school full time, have little income and are dating women in a similar situation you can get away with spending a lot less without being seen as cheap.
If you are young and poor but can come up with interesting stuff to do with a girl that doesn't cost money (besides sex), there are plenty of young girls who would be happy to be your girl friend.
If on the other hand you are an established professional with a decent salary its quite a bit different.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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I like a certain amount of kohl on the eyes and a nice, flouncy skirt. It doesn't matter to me how much time was spent or how much the skirt cost; in fact, knowing that much time or money was spent is an active turnoff.
What I do want is someone who is bright and engaging. If they can't be bright and engaging without dressing up to give themselves confidence, fine. But I'd prefer otherwise.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by jebus202: I think anyone who says pretty girls don't get more attention is being naive. Equally anyone who says hot guys don't get more attention is also being naive. At least women have a way of faking being attractive.
Nope. Pretty women are more attractive, I agree, but it really doesn't matter what guys look like. So long as you have charisma and personality, you're good to go. I know plenty of knockouts dating fat dudes who can make them laugh.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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T:man -- you're absolutely not ugly. I know that just from reading your post. You're chivalrous because you feel you should provide for your date. You have good judgement because you feel your girlfriend looks stunning without makeup. You appreciate beauty because you like it when she get's "dolled up." You are not materialistic or shallow because you are comfortable with being "poor" and you have the good sense to spend the most precious gift of all -- your time on Earth -- with a woman who is cool with you the way you are. You're not ugly in the least. You may be homely (as am I) but if you were ugly you would be on here saying hurtful or defensive or phoney things.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: [qb] In my experience, guys claim not to care about looks, not want someone to get fixed up, spend money and effort on their looks, but those same guys always end up dating the girls who do. I've seen this happen at least two dozen times with guys I'm friends with, over 3 decades. So my opinion is that guys may not realize it at the time, but they're unaware of their own selection criteria.
I've known guys like that as well. I've also known quite a few, including my husband, who really don't like makeup.
Yeah. I do know guys who are attracted to the heavily made up look, some of whom are aware of it and some of whom aren't. I also know guys (and I'm one of them) who generally prefers how people look without makeup. I'm delighted that my girlfriend rarely wears the stuff.
quote:Like some others here, the idea that the guy should pay for the date because the woman is paying to doll her self up really disturbs me.
It doesn't disturb me, exactly, but I laughed aloud when I read kat's initial post about it, and was surprised when I realized that she wasn't kidding. It's a pretty foreign concept for me.
As for the whole question of paying on dates, I'm absolutely fine with picking up the tab. I'm also absolutely fine with my date doing so. I think that my ideal would be trading off, with one person picking up the tab on one date, and the other person picking it up on the other.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Omega M, Can I ask how old you are and what you are currently doing? It makes a difference. If you are a relatively young, going to school full time, have little income and are dating women in a similar situation you can get away with spending a lot less without being seen as cheap.
If you are young and poor but can come up with interesting stuff to do with a girl that doesn't cost money (besides sex), there are plenty of young girls who would be happy to be your girl friend.
If on the other hand you are an established professional with a decent salary its quite a bit different.
I don't know, that seems kind of soulless. I AM still a student, but even once I'm rich and powerful, the kind of things I like to do simply don't cost much. I like to think that won't change as I grow older... and I like to think the bright and fun girls I date now won't become expensive and boring women come middle age.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I think setting a money limit is a disaster waiting to happen. It isn't a $10 a week type of thing, but it doesn't have to be a $100 a date type of thing either.
When my wife and I started dating, we were both pretty poor and working at restaurants, so while I payed when I could, she carried a bit of it as well. Otherwise we wouldn't have gone out as much.
That being said, she offered to pay for her ticket to the movie the first night out, and I told her I'd pay so there wouldn't be any question if it was a date or as friends. We had known each other for about 9 months as friends/co-workers, and I wanted to be very specific about the fact that I was interested in her. She blushed, then said in a real small voice " O.K.".
If I had been insistent about paying for each date we would have seen a lot less of each other. We found a lot of things to do together that weren't expensive, and I payed when I could.
When she had something specific SHE really wanted to do, she'd make a point of saying " Let's go do xxx, my treat!", and it was cool.
It all depends on the people involved. I know that if she had taken issue with who payed I wouldn't have been interested in her, let alone interested in marrying her. I sure wouldn't expect her to include makeup, fitness, personal trainers or anything else like that as a "cost" of dating me, as I never asked her to do any of that at all. That would all be on her, just like my costs of nice clothes, shoes, and personal hygiene was for me.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ha. I'll spend my days cleaning my shotguns.
My condolences btw, are you the only dude in the house? Feel free to come crash in my pad if the estrogen gets overwhelming.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by jebus202: I think anyone who says pretty girls don't get more attention is being naive. Equally anyone who says hot guys don't get more attention is also being naive. At least women have a way of faking being attractive.
Nope. Pretty women are more attractive, I agree, but it really doesn't matter what guys look like. So long as you have charisma and personality, you're good to go. I know plenty of knockouts dating fat dudes who can make them laugh.
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One aspect of ritualized dating is that adults get to spend time around people of the opposite sex and get ideas about marriage. You see what aspects of people such as neuroses, morals, hygiene, values, likes and dislikes you want in a prospective mate, and which ones are deal-breakers. Even if an adult male is a full time student with big debt and a tight budget, $10 a week doesn't get two movie tickets and two happy meals. Dude, you better look like Brad Pitt and be as witty as Jerry Seinfeld to expect a woman to be happy with $10 a week. Or else, you're just a placeholder. She may date someone like that until something better comes along, or she may really like being with you and may be she's convinced your condition is very temporary. Eventually she or her friends or her parents will say, "Why doesn't that guy bus tables or deliver pizza or mow lawns or carry river rocks or something for 8 hours every Saturday so he can have a whopping 50$ a week with which to 'date'? You know, he doesn't seem very organized, or ambitious, or responsible."
Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2009
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Omega: You pay for experience. You pay because it presents an opportunity for a common experience with someone who may find you attractive in an environment that isn't threatening.
And, whether it's fair or not, you pay because to many women the ability to provide rings the same bells that physical attractiveness does for many men.
I understand the temptation to think of money you spend on a significant other as money that could have been spent on fun, physically material things (like the aforementioned CDs), especially in the wake of a break-up or rejection. But it's losing the battle before it's even started.
Are you such a splendid catch, so charming and courteous and dashing, that a girl should be willing to spend her own money in the process of spending time with you? Especially just when you're getting to know one another?
Enough so to compete with men who are willing to pick up the check?...
Alternatively, are you good enough at planning that you can find things to do together that won't strain your budget and show your significant other that she has your attention and affection even if you didn't put money into the endeavor?
These are not rhetorical questions.
Synesthesia: Based on what you've said alone, I knew a fair number of men in college who would have been thrilled to meet someone like you.
(Whether you would have found any of them attractive is another question, of course.)
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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Just to be clear, I think it's really creepy to talk about any sort of trade off in money spent, as well.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I'm glad I made your day. I hope I didn't just ruin someone else's.....
But seriously, the thing I said to you at 8:10 and the thing I said to anyone who would listen at 8:42 are the exact same things I would say to a son or a brother....
Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Flying Fish: One aspect of ritualized dating is that adults get to spend time around people of the opposite sex and get ideas about marriage. You see what aspects of people such as neuroses, morals, hygiene, values, likes and dislikes you want in a prospective mate, and which ones are deal-breakers. Even if an adult male is a full time student with big debt and a tight budget, $10 a week doesn't get two movie tickets and two happy meals. Dude, you better look like Brad Pitt and be as witty as Jerry Seinfeld to expect a woman to be happy with $10 a week. Or else, you're just a placeholder. She may date someone like that until something better comes along, or she may really like being with you and may be she's convinced your condition is very temporary. Eventually she or her friends or her parents will say, "Why doesn't that guy bus tables or deliver pizza or mow lawns or carry river rocks or something for 8 hours every Saturday so he can have a whopping 50$ a week with which to 'date'? You know, he doesn't seem very organized, or ambitious, or responsible."
Hahahaaa, her parents definetely know my situation. Most of my money is going to pay for classes, and rent (I help my mom with rent). The rest of it goes almost straight to hanging out with her, tho there isn't much left >.>
Posts: 1574 | Registered: May 2008
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paying for classes = ambitious, condition temporary
pays rent before spending "date" money = organized
helps mother with rent = responsible
Also, the kicker: takes care of his mother. Single women, take note. How a man treats his Mother is the single greatest predictor of how he will treat a wife.
T:man, not that you need it from me, but you have my blessings.
And also, if someone else has made the conscious decision that regardless of his circumstances he only wants to invest $10 per week in dating, that man has my blessings, too. He also has my sincere prediction that he faces much disappointment.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Also, the kicker: takes care of his mother. Single women, take note. How a man treats his Mother is the single greatest predictor of how he will treat a wife.
On the other hand, the potential MIL's presence/neediness in everyday life can sometimes be a pretty important red flag.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Flying Fish: Also, the kicker: takes care of his mother. Single women, take note. How a man treats his Mother is the single greatest predictor of how he will treat a wife.
I've been happily married for a decade, my wife will tell you that I treat her very well, and I haven't spoken to my mother since around 2002. Don't put too much faith in rules of thumb.
Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Oh, let me tell you, I am going to laugh and laugh when you have girls. *grin*
You may find Lalo laughable but as a girl I find it insulting that you think that girls as toddlers have any need to be in ridiculously expensive ballet lessons. Be the adult and set some limits for heaven's sake. The people who run the classes are ripping you off: They are the ones who are laughing-- all the way to the bank.
As for the actual topic of the thread:
I don't particularly like being paid for unless I'm paying in return. As for the fact that the men pay for food because the women pretty themselves up, I find that utterly bizarre, like an incredibly mild form of prostitution. If I make an effort to look nice, I expect the person I'm going out with to match my effort.
And I have taken the bus on a date. And the subway, in fact. And I've walked. It's called "being poor". I don't expect someone to break his bank on my behalf (if he insists on paying) and if we're paying mutually or I'm paying I don't think I would ever break mine unless I had a really good reason to (e.g. a proposal).
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:You may find Lalo laughable but as a girl I find it insulting that you think that girls as toddlers have any need to be in ridiculously expensive ballet lessons. Be the adult and set some limits for heaven's sake. The people who run the classes are ripping you off...
*grin* Would you like me to just list the misconceptions you're running with here, or would you like to take a minute to take a deep breath, think about what you know about me and my wife and our kids, and then consider maybe whether you want to rant? Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I find unusual things attractive such as acne scars, different coloured eyes and guys with single lidded eyes and a lot of tattoos that are interesting and non-Nazi. Especially horimono.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:grin* Would you like me to just list the misconceptions you're running with here, or would you like to take a minute to take a deep breath, think about what you know about me and my wife and our kids, and then consider maybe whether you want to rant? [Wink]
1. Your daughter doesn't actually take the lessons in question, you're just saying they do offer lessons 2. She's not a toddler, but they do offer lessons for toddlers, and you pity those parents. 3. Your child is actually some kind of prodigy and you want to give her arthritis at age 25. 4. You didn't correct Lalo because Lalo can get crazy and you're ignoring him. 5. Some parents *are* like this, even if they are very intelligent. Don't even get me started. 6. I'm really tired and explodey. If I explode in the wrong place, I apologise.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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1) Sophie doesn't actually take the lessons in question, but she really, really wants to in the way little girls really, really want things like dogs, ponies, and ballet lessons. This is what I was laughing at Lalo about; the idea that Sophie would accept a dirty stick as a substitute for ballet lessons fundamentally misunderstands why she wants ballet lessons in particular. *grin*
2) Christy and I are okay, now that Sophie's old enough to remember and benefit from more structured lessons, with paying a reasonable amount for structured lessons. And believe it or not, $200 is actually a reasonable, non-ripoff price for 10 lessons around here; "ridiculously expensive" they are not, especially when compared to the actually ridiculous ones. That said, it still seems to us that the biggest advantage of a formal class at this age is just the socialization aspect; I have trouble believing that a professional instructor can teach Sophie $200 more dance steps than I can. So we've opted out so far, although the time will come -- probably in another year or so -- when we opt in.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Well, 1) Not all little girls want ballet lessons that way.
2) Case in point, I cried and wouldn't leave my mothers legs on my first day in Ballet class because I really, really didn't want to go. I think it depends on what you latch on to. Some of us did play with sticks and swings.
I was four or five. I guess that's pretty young. There's no video evidence of me, but there is in later years. Social is right: some kids follow some of the steps... others just sort of stand there and spin. I remember distinctly that one little girl peed on the stage. Not to put you off or anything .
As for the cost, I was assuming eight lessons in two months, which puts the cost over $20 which is more expensive than private piano lessons per hour. How do you get 10 lessons in two months?
EDIT: I had a customer say to me the other day, "Gosh, girls are so expensive, with their little dresses and everything."
I think I see a lot of parents who have more money than sense. If you think you're spending too much on your children's dresses...
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I would have gladly taken the stick over dance classes. My mom enrolled me in classes and I drove teacher nuts for weeks because I refused to participate and would spend the entire hour sitting on my own, perfectly content.
Some of my fondest memories are playing in my yard and mixing weedy flowers and hose water into a faerie potion that I would try to feed to my brothers.
Oh, and I only barely tolerated the family dogs and was terrified of all strange dogs. I also hated horses and only played with the plastic ponies during above-stated dance classes.
Lalo, just do what my mother did. Pray really hard for a girly-girl who loves baking and dance classes, and you'll get a stubborn geeky kid who loves puzzles and make-believe as long as it involves dirt instead of dolls.
Stereotypical ideas about girls is exactly why I hated most of my elementary school teachers.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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It amazed me to discover just how much dance classes cost. The city parks and rec classes here are filled within ten minutes of registration opening. The nearby gym that just opened charged around ten times as much as the city did for classes that sounded extremely similar from the descriptions.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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