posted
But it's an interesting point--there are plenty of despicable characters, but Cersei has directed a lot of the real trouble.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Clegane is just mean, that doesn't make him a villain. I can't stand Sansa, so I really don't care what Littlefinger does to her.
Posts: 212 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I don't know by what possible standard Gregor Clegane fails to be a villain.
I actually got my Cleganes mixed up at first, I still wouldn't say he's a villain. He's just isn't that important. He barely rises above the level of nameless mook. Also, most of his vile deeds take place before the books and he doesn't have a huge influence on events in this story, other than his role as Tyrion's champion.
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posted
Thank you, Lyrhawn, for making me want to read this series over again. It's been about 3-4 years and I think it's the time to do it. It will be great to read your remarks as I go.
Posts: 369 | Registered: Apr 2007
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Yeah. However, at least part of it is erroneous. Gregore never becomes Tyrion's champion, for example. But you can still figure some things out from that...
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by prolixshore: Someone should go back and warn Lyr that this thread is no longer spoiler free
Yeah it sort of went off the rails in the last 30 posts or so, but nothing frustrating has really been revealed. Plus I'm more than halfway through, which only leaves half the spoilers in the series available to me.
I might have to start tiptoeing through this thread though until I finish Feast, which is still some days off. But, feel free to discuss as you will, if it so strikes you. It's cool that this thread has morphed into a more general SoIaF appreciation thread so, I'll gladly put blinders on temporarily.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Good lord, how fast are you?! I read through these books over the course of months! Long, glorious months of very wonderful reading... but I was also busy making films during that whole time.
Best I managed was 200 pages in a single day.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Well, I started the second book on September 20, and finished on about September 25. I think it took about four or five days to finish the Game of Thrones. I started the third book the same day (25), and today I'm 200 pages in. I'll probably read some more tonight in between working on homework.
My professor emailed my class earlier to tell us all to cancel half our readings because we were falling behind, and then reminded me that we have a paper due. So I was excited to have a lightened load...but I'd totally forgotten about the paper. Bit of a give and take there.
I'm not good at stretching out reading over long periods, and I'm a very fast reader when reading for fun. I'm too curious. When I sat down for the first time to read Harry Potter, I read the first five books in about three days. I got Deathly Hallows at midnight when it was released, and finished it around noon I think the next day, with a nap in between. On the one hand, I regret blowing through things because you only get that first read once, and then it's gone, though some things are more repeat readable than others. But on the other hand, the impatience of waiting to finish is maddening. At least this series is heavy and emotionally taxing enough to almost demand occasional breaks.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I guess if I had managed my pace of 200 per day for every day, I would have gotten it too. But then I would have done next to nothing for that time period. Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I can't hate Cersei because it's so obvious that she's written to be the shallow conniving stupid slutty one we're all supposed to hate. But she just comes off flat. Same with Joffrey. He was too simple for a story full of so many multifaceted characters. No one's that unequivocably vile.
I think Walder Frey is a good villain.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Nov 2009
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Yes, his single scene in A Game of Thrones showed him to be a rather slippery character. A pity that such minor characters that we don't see again is the extent of true villainy in this story.
However, Cersei is more than a shallow conniving stupid one. She finds it unfair that she was the one who was treated as less than Jamie from an early age. She was married to a man she didn't want, who did actually abuse her and cheat on her constantly.
Her time in the sun is here, she's waited for years to have that power, and she'll be damned to let it slip from her after all this time and all this effort. Would I really be too different? Probably, but I can see where she's coming from.
Furthermore, she has another problem that's a spoiler all on its own. And she's trying to stop it from happening. She's doing a terrible job of it, though.
She makes bad decisions, is paranoid and vindictive, she's blind to her son's problems, or at least in denial. She does love her children, and would never harm them, though her own needs and power comes first, like certain historical queens and empresses. I doubt she'd ever kill her own child, and in that way she's better than some historical royal mothers.
She isn't as shallow as she seems. She's definitely evil, but there are reasons for her being the way she is. Stupid reasons, sometimes, but not every character gets to be a genius.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: Yeah. However, at least part of it is erroneous. Gregore never becomes Tyrion's champion, for example. But you can still figure some things out from that...
Oops, you're right. Gregore was on the other side of that.
Posts: 212 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:That actually kind of saddens me. I'm...beginning to...sort of...like him.
If anyone needs proof that this series is masterfully written, I'd point to the fact that one of the most beloved characters, who is most often mentioned as being the object of crushes by female readers, is the one whose first major scene involved him pushing an eight year old boy out of a window.
That you come around to sympathize with him in a very real way is just amazing.
You can tell Lyrhawn is well on the way. By the end of AFFC I'm sure he'll actually care for the guy.
It's almost like someone challenged Martin to take some of the most despicable acts possible and then get the audience to still like the character who commits them.
Even more so with Tyrion, though thats in reverse. You like him, and then he does the terrible crime.
"Hey man, I bet I can have a male character i his 30s strangle his 16 year old lover to death and then kill his father. The audience will still think of him as a good guy. His brother is also going to intentionally throw an eight year old protagonist out of a window and paralyze him. He'll also end up being a favorite character, especially with my female readers."
"Yeah right. Lay off the drugs George."
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: I know! Me too. I want to see his impression on a few certain events, in particular. I can't wait until he gets there.
Hey Lyr, any hint as to when we should all look for it?
At the pace he is going, he's gotta be about there, right?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: I know! Me too. I want to see his impression on a few certain events, in particular. I can't wait until he gets there.
Hey Lyr, any hint as to when we should all look for it?
Wow, didn't realize more than three people were reading it, or that there was any sort of anticipation.
As it happens I got my ass pretty well kicked this week with home work, but after a solid 48 hours of hammering away at it, I'm finally almost caught up.
You'll likely get another post tonight after I get home from work.
I'm really glad so many people are enjoying it. You should all feel free to comment on the blog (as Megabyte has) with how YOU feel about certain things. Writing down my own reactions is fun, but I'd love to hear how others see things too.
ETA: Big thanks to Xavier by the way, for the Lyr-specific spoiler warning. Much appreciated.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
No problem Lyrhawn. I was obsessed with the series for a few years (only a small exaggeration), so I'd hate someone to have their enjoyment decreased because of me.
I too am following your blog. I'm hesitant to put my thoughts somewhere you will read them though, as its so hard to talk about them without spoiling future events. I actually don't like some of the comments on your blog posts because I fear they reveal too much.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
New post up. It's small, but they'll be coming in their regular 100 page increments at a pace of once every day or so from now on until the end of the book.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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You're in charge of letting me know whether or not the comments that other people leave on my blog are spoilerific or not.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Gotcha. I've seen a few spoilers, but I'll warn you. Just look for Anthony's comments first, as that's me, okay?
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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New post up, and yeah, I think I reached that big moment that people were talking about, at least, it was one of the big moments. It had to be.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Dang it. I just can't win it seems. (points down to the post below me.)
Don't read the comments on the site, Lyr. Sigh.
I guess I can sum it up like this:
Congradulations! You've encountered the worst. Welcome to the club. But take heart. There's still a lot worth rooting for. I can't wait to see what you think.
posted
See now, I'd consider that post chock full of spoilers. I'd list the things it reveals to make my point, but that'd just make it worse.
I guess if Lyrhawn is comfortable with that level of information, its not my business to butt in.
Anyway, as for "Jaime Lannister sends his regards", if I remember correctly Jaime tells Roose to give his regards to Robb when they released Roose.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
I already edited it. Though the damage may have been done.
I've just been waiting so long for him to reach that point where I don't have to keep that secret, that I honestly guess a whole lot of information crept out I didn't intend.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Xavier: Anyway, as for "Jaime Lannister sends his regards", if I remember correctly Jaime tells Roose to give his regards to Robb when they released Roose.
Right, when Jaime and Steelshanks are riding to King's Landing, and Roose is riding north, Jaime tells Roose to give Robb his regards. I didn't notice this my first read-through either.
Also, Lyr, it's Myrcella who is in Sunspear. Tommen is still in King's Landing.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: I already edited it. Though the damage may have been done.
I've just been waiting so long for him to reach that point where I don't have to keep that secret, that I honestly guess a whole lot of information crept out I didn't intend.
Take heart. I was at class all night and never saw whatever it is that you deleted.
Dan Frank -
Oh yeah I got them mixed up. I remember now that it was a treacherous journey by sea and Tommen was sent off somewhere else and intercepted by Tyrion before being returned. But man, that would have been sweet if Tommen had been to the south. Tommen replacing Joffrey would be interesting in a number of ways, because he's so much kinder a spirit, but he's also probably too young for that to really matter. Cersei would be in far more control, as well, perhaps, as whoever they get to marry her. That's assuming Stannis, the only other king left, doesn't do something to make Tommen irrelevant.
I actually kind of want to see a full version of the Rains of Castamere, and I'll be interests to hear what it sounds like when the forthcoming TV show on HBO gets around to it, as they'll have to. I think it could be pretty powerful, if sad.
I think what's interesting in my own transformation as a reader is that I'm far less connected with a lot of the characters than I was when I first started. It was all so visceral then, and I wanted certain people to win and lose like rooting for a sports team. But I'm far less interested in the master plot than I was before. I still really like certain characters, like Bran and Jon, and I'm really fascinated by Jaime and Tyrion, even if I don't like then per se, but I don't really care if any of them win, I'm just fascinated by their journeys of development.
Don't get me wrong though. I still have a list, just like Arya's, of people I want to die. And not just die, but suffer.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I still really like certain characters, like Bran and Jon, and I'm really fascinated by Jaime and Tyrion, even if I don't like then per se, but I don't really care if any of them win, I'm just fascinated by their journeys of development.
I'm sort of boggled by how many of the characters I find I really like, despite some of them having done some pretty morally heinous things.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I think the difference for me is, I like a lot of them as characters, but I don't like them as people. In other words, they're fantastic, but I'm not going to sit down and have a beer with them.
Not yet anyway. I'm still leaving room open for redemption, but that's not exactly a watchword in these books.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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And as much as I complained that I didn't want to hear the Rains of Cantamere... of course I want to hear it! It's just going to be so painful.
Anyway, having beers with these characters... no. I'm too different, I wouldn't work within their culture. Samwise, maybe, but I'm so unlike what's desired in a person in Westeros that even the people I'd like wouldn't like me.
Also? I want to see a lot of people die too.
Freaking Frey, man. I wish so hard that he doesn't die of natural causes. So very hard.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Well, to be fair, the Red Wedding is such a terrible thing that it's easy to get biased, and hate everything the people who probably caused it do.
They are doing bad things, after doing worse things. Why should he give them the benefit of the doubt?
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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