posted
Is it always condescension? I mean, we get newbies on Hatrack all the time that go crazy posting pay-attention-to-me threads. That generally calms down as they become more "mature" posters. Is it condescending then to hope that a promising newbie will calm down and figure out the forum?
I reject the premise that thinking someone would be better with some more maturity = condescension.
quote:I almost always view rudeness as an abberation and condescention as a trend. Do you view them differently?
Hmm...only when either is a trend. Everyone is rude sometimes, and practically everyone has an area in which they think they know better. One or two occasions of either doesn't constitute a trend, but several occasions of either would.
Sometimes it's a double-whammy. I have a co-worker who is both rude AND condescending.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
kat, I think we have different takes on what constitutes rudeness. For example, I find condescention incredibly rude, whereas you don't seem to, and my friends and I certainly speak to one another in ways I think you would probably consider rude.
For example, back in university there was a time when we used to make up impromptu dirty limericks about one another, which were invariably quite cutting, but everyone gave as good as they got, and we all found it hilarious.
Added:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I reject the premise that thinking someone would be better with some more maturity = condescension.
I think the premise here is more precise: the assumption that use of profanity implies immaturity = condescention.
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posted
I do think condescension is rude. What I don't believe is that thinking someone is being immature is condescending.
quote:For example, back in university there was a time when we used to make up impromptu dirty limericks about one another, which were invariably quite cutting, but everyone gave as good as they got, and we all found it hilarious.
Yeah, I think we are different. There's absolutely no way I would enjoy that. There are so few cutting remarks in my real life that even the occasional one that's too hilarious to pass up can stop the conversation.
I like it that way. I can take on the world just fine, but in my absolute private sanctum, life is very sweet and friendly and lovely.
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posted
It's strange, but I think the premise that someone thinking profanity implies a sort of immaturity means the person thinking it is condescending is sort of...well, condescending themselves as well.
Both points of view-that profanity implies immaturity, and that thinking that equates to condescension-both stem from a bit of a self-superior view of proper behavior and speaking, don't they? But to some degree, I guess that's true of everything manners-related.
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posted
To clarify, the sweetness comes from the person. Whether or not someone is swearing is not the difference between whether or not someone is rude. Some of the sweetest people I know swear and I don't mind - not steeling myself not to mind, but I really don't, because I know it isn't out of rudeness at all.
I also think there is a difference between swearing around someone and swearing at someone. The second is a great deal more serious than the first, but I think that's because the vehemence and extreme emotions swear words are meant to express are actually directed straight at the listener. Even with spotless language sentiment like that will hurt.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I do think condescension is rude. What I don't believe is that thinking someone is being immature is condescending.
As far as I'm aware, I haven't said that. See my edit above where I attempted to clarify the premise more precisely. The application of the "condescending" label is very context-dependent for me.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I do think condescension is rude.
Ooh, congratulations on using a big word like "condescension"! Now, do you think you can give us an example, for those of us who don't understand what that means?
Posts: 1794 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Dobbie: Ooh, congratulations on using a big word like "condescension"! Now, do you think you can give us an example, for those of us who don't understand what that means?
quote:They are both negative, but while condescension isn't great, thinking someone is immature holds out some hope. Thinking someone is instead rude and inconsiderate obliterates that hope.
You know, this may be why some people don't understand why missionary work is inherently, deeply insulting. If you're used to holding out hope for all those fully-grown "little children" around you, maybe you really don't understand how incredibly offensive that is. I strongly prefer being disliked to being someone's project.
quote:What I don't believe is that thinking someone is being immature is condescending.
Indeed it is. Because the assumption here is that the person involved "has some growing to do," whether that's the case or not.
We condescend to newbies and to children all the time, in this forum and out in the world, but we accept that because it's common knowledge that both children and newbies do have some growing to do. People who swear a lot, though, may have made a fully adult decision to simply disregard certain social mores; the assumption that they would "grow into" your mores is a tacit assumption that a) your mores are superior to theirs and b) they are not fully adult.
That's inherently disrespectful.
quote:I also think there is a difference between swearing around someone and swearing at someone. The second is a great deal more serious than the first...
And here, too, I disagree. Every time I've ever been discomfited by cursing, it's been by someone cursing around me, not at me. People cursing at me are a complete afterthought, since the curses are just symptomatic of the real problem by that point. (One exception: my mother once called me a "son of a b***h." My reaction ensured that she chose her curses more appropriately thereafter.)
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The idea that you know better than someone else how they should behave is, as far as I'm concerned, probably the single most deadly insult you can offer an adult when uninvited. The social distinction between an adult and a child, in fact, is precisely this: whether they're old enough to be assumed to make their own rational choices, and for the world to presume that those choices carry some internal validity.
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"Kids love to swear. Hell, I was swearing before I knew what it meant."
I'm sorry, this is still bothering me. I just wanted to say that kids swearing before they even know what it means is exactly why it is a good idea to refrain from swearing around children. Of course children are going to be exposed to all the dark and light and inbetweens of the world, but I absolutely hate when people use that as an excuse to throw their accountability and consideration of others to the wind.
I remember cussing as a child when i knew it was "bad," but I didn't realize the negative effects it could have on those around me. I've always had a bit of a sailor mouth, but I do my best to rarely if ever cuss in public. It is truly disgusting and disheartening to hear a child using foul language. It is called foul language and cursing for a reason. It is strong and jarring, and usually meant to express bad feelings provocatively, or to negate others.
And using foul language till it is diluted? Well. To me it wouldn't be unlike watching someone stab everyone in their vicinity, multiple times, not because they were truly angry, but because they were apathetic. It's gross. (And of course I do not equate puncturing an organ on the same level as slipping a dirty word, it is just an accessible image.)
I guess I rather miss when it was expected for people to watch their language in public places. It's just a common courtesy, like not smoking in a movie theater, or in a waiting room. We're all going to be around eachother, so why not be at least mildly considerate?
It's all a null point, anyway. Everyone that posts here agreed to these terms in the beginning. Don't enter some hospitable person's home and demand they rearrange their furniture and change their customs. Especially not when you have plenty of other places to go. I daresay no one is homeless on the internet.
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quote:You know, this may be why some people don't understand why missionary work is inherently, deeply insulting.
quote:The idea that you know better than someone else how they should behave is, as far as I'm concerned, probably the single most deadly insult you can offer an adult when uninvited.
Tom, do you think people shouldn't be deeply insulting?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Tom, do you think people shouldn't be deeply insulting?
Now THIS is something I've never said. In fact, I recall having strongly come down in favor of being deeply insulting once or twice. I've even gone to the trouble of drawing a distinction between being uncivil and being impolite, IIRC, and explained why I think both behaviors, while distinct, are perfectly justifiable at times. *grin*
But I do think that being deeply insulting is a graver approach than being astonishingly rude, if only because it implicitly places you in opposition to the listener; rudeness creates a sense of the "other," but does not inherently define that "other" as hostile -- whereas insult does. It's far worse, in other words, to patronize someone than to swear in their presence; the former amounts to a direct challenge of status, and demands response in a way that uncouth behavior, for all that society might frown on it, does not.
I have -- frequently -- chosen to insult and patronize people, and have no doubt that many of my behaviors come across as rude. But there are prices I pay for these choices. For every three newbies we patiently lecture on the "proper" way to interact with Hatrack, I have no doubt that we alienate two -- and, as an ancillary cost, reinforce in our own minds our perception of ourselves as somehow "superior" to the hoi polloi. But provided that we keep that cost in mind, I maintain that the cost is worth it to keep the forum free of the clutter that drags down many other sites out there. Still, the cost is high enough that, at least once a year, the forum turns on itself in some kind of guilty purging ritual, intended subconsciously (I believe) to establish whether or not the regulars are entitled to maintain a sense of superiority.
I know missionaries go through the same kind of regimen, albeit with a slightly different focus, and I don't doubt that Miss Manners often finds herself wondering whether, at the end of the day, anything she bothers writing actually matters to anyone. But I think it's important to keep in mind the fact that "insult" is not the same thing as "offense;" that's why swearing in front of someone who has asked you not to swear is worse than swearing in front of a friend who has never made his preferences known.
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posted
So, should we frequently ask for permission from those who don't want us to swear in front of them in case they change their mind, or should we be safe and assume that they always are going to be against us swearing around them?
My preferences concerning swearing have changed over the years (much to my wife's dismay since she's trying to kick the habit for our new daughter), so I've gotten into the habit of asking old friends where they stand. A few of them have changed as well. So for the time being I'll keep asking over and over again.
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posted
I don't swear. I never have. I live in one of those mystical places where people don't swear (yeah, they exist). I am offended by many swear words, especially those with religious undertones and sexual conotations. It almost killed me when I was a high school freshman and I had to tell the band director exactly what someone had said to me because much of what she had said were swear words that I had never said.
That being said, Happymann, I would appreciate if you not swear around me as I don't think my preferences will change anytime soon. I like this bulletin board because I don't have to worry about running into many curse words or topics with dirty language or ideas and I would like to keep it that way.
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posted
I don't consider anyone rude or immature for having a behavior (cussing, smoking, bathroom talk), but only for continuing a behavior once I've let him know it bothers me. When I am alone or with other adults, if I can leave the presence of what offends me, I will. If I'm with my kids and I can't leave, I will tell the person it bothers me or point out my kids. If the person stops, I say,"thank you" and don't consider him rude or immature. If he doesn't stop, I consider him rude. If he whines and rants or gets passive aggressive about his right to continue a behavior that offends, then I consider him immature.
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quote:People who swear a lot, though, may have made a fully adult decision to simply disregard certain social mores; the assumption that they would "grow into" your mores is a tacit assumption that a) your mores are superior to theirs and b) they are not fully adult.
Okay, I think most people - fairly or not - feel like their social mores are superior to mores that go contrary to theirs. Most people won't say anything about it, but wish others held standards or mores similar to their own - whether it's thinking that "refraining from swearing is the polite way to behave", or whether it's that "people should stop being offended by mere words." The holder of an opinion generally feels it's better than contrary opinions, otherwise they would share the contrary opinion. (It's late; is this making sense?)
As for thinking people should "grow into" your mores - It may be totally inappropriate to think, but it's what the world looks like to me in this situation. To me, learning to be less self-centered and care more about how your behavior affects others is a sign of maturity - because it generally happens as people grow past adolescence into adulthood. It may be inaccurate in my case to use the word "maturity" for people who swear indiscriminately, because I generally don't know the reasons they swear and I base my reaction on assumptions. I generally assume that they need a little consideration for others, which I generally assume comes with maturity. It doesn't always, of course.
I will acknowledge that there are those who decide as adults, after a lifetime of not swearing, that they no longer care what anyone thinks or how they feel or how uncomfortable it makes them, and start swearing. I do not think those persons have gained maturity. They may have gotten that way as they aged, but I wouldn't call it maturity. For adults who have made a conscious choice to swear regardless of how others feel - if immature is the wrong word, I don't know the right word for them, other than I think it's sad that they would "grow" in that direction.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Is it the meaning of the swear words or the sentiment that they are an expression of, or a combination thereof, that is offensive to people? Do you react differently if the nature of the swearing is religious, sexual or scathological? (Are there any other categories?) To what extent is the offense lessened when euphemisms of "real" swear words are used?
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quote:For adults who have made a conscious choice to swear regardless of how others feel - if immature is the wrong word, I don't know the right word for them...
Again, let me suggest "inconsiderate."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I think being astonishingly rude is ALSO deeply insulting. It means you don't respect the person. It means you consider the person to have so little value that it isn't worth being polite. It means that the person and their feelings mean absolutely nothing. That is insulting.
Inconsiderate means selfish and self-centered.
What's funny is that I don't agree that swearing = immature. I think people do it for all sorts of reasons. Some are immature, some are responding to what they see as social norms and are trying to fit in, some are selfish and self-centered, and some draw no distinction between polite and impolite situations, and some don't consider swearing to be impolite. The reason we can't agree on a single motivation is because there isn't a single motivation.
I really wish there was a value-nuetral word for "does not use profanity or swear words." I'm still looking for suggestions if anyone has one.
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Unfortunately, "inconsiderate" does not have the same satisfying eye-rolling potential as "oh, grow up!"
(Yes, I recognize that marks me as condescending. When I hear people swearing a lot in public and they won't stop when they realize they're being offensive, I have a rather immature desire to insult them back. I usually refrain. But I can at least think to myself that I wish they would grow up.)
quote:I really wish there was a value-nuetral word for "does not use profanity or swear words." I'm still looking for suggestions if anyone has one.
I can't think of one, because profanity is not value-neutral. Swearing is only offensive because of the connotations we (society) give those words, either positively or negatively - therefore the words we use to describe one who doesn't use them would either have a positive or negative connotation.
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quote:I think being astonishingly rude is ALSO deeply insulting. It means you don't respect the person.
No, that's actually untrue, which is why there's a distinction at all.
Being inconsiderate -- not considering someone else's feelings when making a decision -- is NOT the same thing as being disrespectful. Respect is not actually consideration, and should not be confused with consideration.
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posted
Being inconsiderate may be self-centered. Assuming that a lack of consideration always stems from simple selfishness, however, makes it harder to deal with people who are inconsiderate for other reasons.
I don't think it's necessarily true that respect is a subset of consideration, either; I know many people who show "consideration" who have no respect for the target of that consideration at all.
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In fact, I recall having strongly come down in favor of being deeply insulting once or twice. I've even gone to the trouble of drawing a distinction between being uncivil and being impolite, IIRC, and explained why I think both behaviors, while distinct, are perfectly justifiable at times. *grin*
