posted
It's way late - 'cause I'm on the road for work and just got to my comp - but... I'll venture out there to say that I swear, cuss, say bad words in real person. I do it with my friends, I do it with work folk, I even do it around family. That said - I really enjoy coming here and just stepping back from it all for a while.
I like the way this forum is with minimal 'bad words' and I really do notice when they come out. I mean, makes me read the sentence twice.
I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be flagged at all times, I'm just saying that personally I like when people come up with some more descriptive, non-common words to convey the way they're feeling, what they're going through, how they feel about a person than the same old, over-used words.
That's all I've got...
*oh! and fart-eater remains my favorite*
Posts: 1355 | Registered: Jul 2006
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I don't really have time for forums these days, but hatrack is still definitely a buoy in a dark sticky sea.
I had to research window tint for the comic store i work at, and was directed to a help forum about all things window and tinting. Window tinting, people. I was expecting DIY network meets industrial geek. I got TLR meets bar bathroom wall.
Sad little adults. Sad little tinted windows.
Posts: 3936 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by PUNJABEE: No offense to anyone, but is everyone here surfing the net in math class or something? I thought a lot of us here were beyond the age of gradeschool.
It may not be all that glamorous, but adults do use profanity.
From time to time.
You do need to keep in mind, however, that "a lot of us here" is not all of us here. I'm not in gradeschool, as your example points out, but I am still a kid. And I'm not the only kid.
Granted, profanity doesn't really bother me. I hear far worse every day at school. Still, the point that I'm trying to make is that your point that "Oh no! We're all in grade school! BAD WORDS!", while in jest, isn't all that far from the truth. There are at least half a dozen minors who actively post on this forum, and potentially many more who lurk for each member who posts.
Also, your comment that "Boobs crap boobs. Hell damn fart." provides a nice illustration that there are in fact people here that lack the maturity to handle profanity.
Also, you mis-conjugated the verb "damn". It should be "damns", since Hell isn't plural. Fart should probably be pluralized as well. Posts: 1466 | Registered: Jan 2003
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And really, whether or not there are actual kids here and how mature they are is not the point. The point is that we didn't make the website, we just use it. As parents everywhere say, "My house, my rules." The Cards' website, their rules. We all agreed to the rules when we signed up; if we can't follow the rules, we should refrain from posting or be prepared to be barred from posting.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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1) As ElJay (and others) have pointed out, playing by the Card's rules is part of the agreement you (and all of us made) when we joined.
2) The site is intended to be "friendly" to any of Card's fans. Because at least some of his works deliberately have been written and marketed to pre-teen and young teen audiences there are a fair number of such people who come here. Precocious though they may be, I personally would not want to be the one instructing them on swear word usage -- even proper swear word usage.
3) Among the adults here, there are some who (for a variety of reasons) find some, most or even all of the common swear words offensive. And not just mildly offensive, but horribly so. Granted, there may not be many of those people, but if the aim here is discussion, it seems incredibly hostile to ignore their feelings entirely -- even to the extent of using swear words "appropriately." I mean, if you found out that a particular word was a particular slur hateful to Jews, would you continue to use it and insist on it being harmless, despite the fact that you are posting on a site frequented by several Jews? What about a word you learn is hateful to Mormons (oops, I mean members of the Church of Latter Day Saints)? It really does come down to a question of manners and how you wish to be perceived.
4) Notice how people here have reacted to you. You have essentially said that a number of us are suffering from cranial/colonic insertion (see, creativity can be fun) and yet not a single put-down, not a single "shut up," and no swear words back at you. So far anyway. I submit that it isn't because the rest of us are better than you -- I can't really gauge that -- but that the rest of us have decided that we LIKE and RESPECT the rules we collectively live under here at Hatrack.
In other words...it's not just the initial wishes of the Cards', but the entire community of real people built up around the framework they provided.
Hatrack works because the community does what its members agree is best.
Now...you have a choice.
You can be considered part of the community, or you can brand yourself an outsider. Either way, obviously, we'll still treat you with respect. But on the one hand, you can help to build and maintain something that many find value in. On the other hand, you can be the "rebel" hoping to shake the trees. Maybe conformity is just too boring and awful a fate for you right now. Hey...I've been there. In which case, depending on how far you decide to go, you'll either be the annoying nit who everyone tries hard to help into a better posting style, or you'll be one of the people who the Card's reluctantly had to ban from the site.
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Funny: You do need to keep in mind, however, that "a lot of us here" is not all of us here. I'm not in gradeschool, as your example points out, but I am still a kid. And I'm not the only kid.
Granted, profanity doesn't really bother me. I hear far worse every day at school. Still, the point that I'm trying to make is that your point that "Oh no! We're all in grade school! BAD WORDS!", while in jest, isn't all that far from the truth. There are at least half a dozen minors who actively post on this forum, and potentially many more who lurk for each member who posts.
Also, your comment that "Boobs crap boobs. Hell damn fart." provides a nice illustration that there are in fact people here that lack the maturity to handle profanity.
Also, you mis-conjugated the verb "damn". It should be "damns", since Hell isn't plural. Fart should probably be pluralized as well.
"boobs crap boobs, hell damn fart" is a Simpsons quote, nimrod.
Posts: 317 | Registered: Feb 2005
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And yet even those of us who knew that didn't leap to your defense, perhaps because we didn't consider that factoid relevant to any estimate of maturity.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:But 'bloody' can be relatively harmless in america, in Great Brittian it's deemed as bad as the F word
Really? Who told you that one? I bet they're laughing now. That might have been the case in the distant (or so) past, or in some small communities, but I assure you, it's not widely the case. Also, that's terrible spelling. Terrible. Terrible.
quote:2) The site is intended to be "friendly" to any of Card's fans. Because at least some of his works deliberately have been written and marketed to pre-teen and young teen audiences there are a fair number of such people who come here. Precocious though they may be, I personally would not want to be the one instructing them on swear word usage -- even proper swear word usage.
While you might be dead on with resepect to PUNJABEE, I've always wondered about this sort of thing. Where is this mystical land where children haven't already compiled a nice large list of swearwords by approximately 8. Or if you're a bit slow, then say 13 at the outside? Kids love to swear. Hell, I was swearing before I knew what it meant. It's pretty much a fact of life. This doesn't neccessarily apply to the homeschooled of course. (Or the "deprived of a proper school social environment" as I prefer to know them.)
p.s. If you are unable to find ways to express yourself without swearing, then you do have a limited vocabulary. There's plenty of replacements for every rude word. They might not be as apt, but they're certainly there. And this comes from someone with a style of speech that would not make it past any censor.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: And yet even those of us who knew that didn't leap to your defense, perhaps because we didn't consider that factoid relevant to any estimate of maturity.
I suppose at this point you expect me to say that I was hoping some people would let little jimmy spanksalot know it was a Simpsons quote.
quote:Kids love to swear. Hell, I was swearing before I knew what it meant. It's pretty much a fact of life.
It isn't. I heard it all my life, but I can remember the first time I ever swore. I was sixteen, and I said "hell." I was horrified at myself and didn't swear again for years.
I'm not alone in this.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: It isn't. I heard it all my life, but I can remember the first time I ever swore. I was sixteen, and I said "hell." I was horrified at myself and didn't swear again for years.
I'm not alone in this.
Sorry but I call BS on that.
Posts: 317 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Andrew W: Where is this mystical land where children haven't already compiled a nice large list of swearwords by approximately 8. Or if you're a bit slow, then say 13 at the outside?
My house. And my parents' house. And that of many, many people I know.
All of whom, like Katie's parents (I assume), refrained from swearing in front of their kids, and didn't allow swearing in their home.
And I know that I am not alone in this. There are many on this forum with homes that are like mine in this regard. We live in this world where swearing is "pretty much a fact of life" to so many, so we know the words. We simply choose not to use them (at least not without EXTREME provocation).
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:While you might be dead on with resepect to PUNJABEE, I've always wondered about this sort of thing. Where is this mystical land where children haven't already compiled a nice large list of swearwords by approximately 8. Or if you're a bit slow, then say 13 at the outside? Kids love to swear. Hell, I was swearing before I knew what it meant. It's pretty much a fact of life. This doesn't neccessarily apply to the homeschooled of course. (Or the "deprived of a proper school social environment" as I prefer to know them.)
I hadn't by age 8, and I was never homeschooled. So this mystical land might be called 'my childhood' of just 10-15 years ago, where I didn't swear before I knew what it meant and I didn't use profanity frequently as a child.
It also puts into a better perspective your arrogant and dismissive attitude towards the homeschooled. I was not near as controlled about it as Katharina, but not on your extreme of the spectrum either. Her end of the spectrum is, in my experience, pretty extreme too...but then, she does not seem as casually dismissive and head-in-the-sand about hers as you do about yours.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Katharina has vastly more credibility on this subject than you do, PUNJABEE. Your call of BS isn't worth very much.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I'm another one of the liars. I grew up around a fair amount of cussing (my dad and his dad were sailors after all ), but was taught from an early age [EDIT: not] to use it or be prepared for some punishment. Similarly, my parents rarely swore at me or my siblings, though the arguments they had at times! I'm sure at a young age I asked what they meant and was told not to repeat them, of course, but I can't remember.
It wasn't until high school, maybe sophomore year, that I started swearing (though I don't think I ever took the Lord's name in vain), and I over-compensated, being the teen that I was. Over time, however, I have fallen back on PG swears ("Geezum Crow"s and "Gosh darnit"s... Really). I don't have a huge problem with people I know swearing, but they just don't come to me, I have to really conciously decide to do it.
It actually is possible to hear swear words, even understand them, without using them.
quote:All of whom, like Katie's parents (I assume), refrained from swearing in front of their kids, and didn't allow swearing in their home.
Are you saying my mother might have sworn when I wasn't in earshot? *insert blown-away smiley*
I know it's hilarious, but that possibility has never occurred to me before. I really don't think she did. Surely there would have been some evidence of it, and my (non-Mormon) aunts don't swear at all either.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I wasn't homeschooled, nor was I raised in particularly religious family. I went to public school all the way up. I didn't swear much at all until around the time I started driving, and certainly not by the age of 8. I knew what the words were; I just didn't use them. So, add me to the list of folks who lived in that "mystical land." As for the kids that "love to swear," in my (admittedly limited) experience, they seem to be kids whose parents swear quite a bit in front of them with little or no restraint. Moreover, and please, who's around kids on a regular basis, correct me if I'm wrong, but they seem mostly to be boys.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Um, I was allowing for the possibility, not intending to imply that it was so. My mom doesn't swear either. My dad does only rarely. I wouldn't presume to know what other people's parents do!
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Oh, I'm not offended. I don't think she did, but I was amused by my initial shock. It's like when you're a kid and you see a teacher at the grocery store.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I never heard a woman cuss until I moved to NYC for college at 18. My uncles and cousins did cuss, but almost never when there were ladies present. I was taught that it is vulgar and unacceptable in polite society. I can count on my fingers the times I've cussed and I've never said the big 3. I've never had a problem expressing anger or frustration. I also don't allow it in my house or around my child.
I also worked with children for years, both in a classroom setting and in after-school programs. I never heard a child use any cuss word but the "h" word and we made sure that was the first and last time they said it in front of us.
I do use exclamations when I'm startled or upset. Mostly "Golly day" or "Goodness gracious" or "Fiddlesticks." This was a great source of amusement for my college friends.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Not that this has anything to do with the current conversation, but after a very poorly thrown dart game last night I realized that I am very capable, and very guilty, of using every horrible explitive I can come up with upwards of a couple dozen times in a half hour period.
Does this kind of thing shock and/or offend the average bystander? Does it shock and/or offend you when you encounter it?
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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I seldom use the extreme words unless i am on 42nd street lunging heavy luggage about or unless I am really enraged, and seldom at a person. However, "hell and damnation" which I read in Hunchback of Norte Dame is only one of my favourite expressions ever. I have other expressions i will put into the mouths of characters because they just sound cool in a way. Also they use the F word a lot in the Sopranos. Like once in every sentence. Overuse of the F word can be annoying, but now i am listening to a lot of HEAVY METAL and when do they ever NOT say the F word in heavy metal? I wonder if I became a heavy metal musician if I'd have to use the f word all the time... Sometimes use of the F word bothers me. I remember a highschool teacher put it on the chalk board one time and after class I went out of my way to erase it.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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PUN uses swear words, and so he feels everyone must. His world includes swear words as part of its every day routine, and he expects everyone else to live in that same world. He neglects or ignores the portion of the population that doesn't agree with him, or perhaps he just can't step outside himself enough to see things from outside his own narrow perspective.
That is to his detriment.
Unfortunately, many times when he opens his mouth it is to our detriment as well.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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My father is one of the most civilized and down to Earth people I know. Under normal circumstances, he would never swear or say anything bad in that sense.
But sit him down in front of a Barcelona/Madrid soccer game and he turns in to somebody else.
My wife is the same way. Calm, collected, tranquil... but get her riled up and she says things that make me blush.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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I've only said the s-word twice, both times when I was a teenager. (After backing into a parked car)
That's about as far as I've gone, in terms of swearing.
I didn't even use the word 'fart' until I was 21 or so...
It's interesting how people react to me and my non-swearing ways. When I started at my new job, I never said how swearing made me uncomfortable. Within a couple weeks, people had stopped swearing around me, or started apologizing to me when they did.
Odd. I wonder if I could use this power for...awesome?
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Is it bad for me to use the word "hell?" I like that word... and bloody as well. And also ruddy.... and Pox.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I've never noticed that you have to specify whether or not cursing makes you uncomfortable. I restrain myself around certain people, both personally and professionally, and I've never been instructed to do so by any of them.
You just pick up on what makes people uncomfortable and what standards they use, and then adapt to that.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Something that has been alluded to here, but not spelled out, is that any minors that participate here do so under permission of their parents (according to my understanding). If parents are willing to let their children on Hatrack because they feel comfortable with the TOS, then violating the rules makes this site into a place that parents may not have approved of.
This makes comment about 8 year olds compiling a list of swear words irrelevant. The child can know every swear word in the book, yet if the parents choose to make their home a place where that is not allowed, then they won't be using or listening to those words at home.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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I wonder if part of the reason ScottR doesn't swear is that apathy?
I mean, because of general easy-going-ness. I have never heard Matt swear, but I've also never heard him fake-swear. It takes a hurricane to get him even ruffled. I don't think he'd swear even under duress, but it might be easier for him not to because he's mellow enough he's almost never under duress.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Put me on the list of people who didn't swear until they were an adult.
Also, I learned a new dirty word the other day, something it would never have occured to me meant something dirty. I don't want to make discoveries like that on hatrack.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Also, I learned a new dirty word the other day, something it would never have occured to me meant something dirty. I don't want to make discoveries like that on hatrack.
It amazes me the words that are quite common and no one gets offended by that have some incredibly vulgar definitions. And then there's the words that have very harmless definitions that people get very upset by. I guess it's not about what the word means, in and of itself, it's the importance, or power, that society has given them that matters.
I completely respect a person's wish to not have swearing prevelant in their home, office or website, but if I'm in public, or in my own home, I don't think I'm gonna let societies (IMO) off-base connotations keep me from using perfectly good words.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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When I was in middle school, I was one of the few people who didn't swear. Some of my friends tried very very hard to get me to swear and I refused. I think that was partially because they were trying so hard and partially because of the way I was raised - no swearing ever, etc. We weren't even allowed to say "Shut up."
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Also, I learned a new dirty word the other day, something it would never have occured to me meant something dirty. I don't want to make discoveries like that on hatrack.
It amazes me the words that are quite common and no one gets offended by that have some incredibly vulgar definitions. And then there's the words that have very harmless definitions that people get very upset by. I guess it's not about what the word means, in and of itself, it's the importance, or power, that society has given them that matters.
I agree. I said something very innocent (misread the title of a children's book) and all of a sudden everyone is staring at me and snickering.
And I'm NOT sheltered. I'll use words my most vulgar guy friends won't use. But I didn't know this one.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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I didn't start cussing until grad school and even then, not often. I am in Texas and there is a store I frequently shop at that does not allow cussing and the owner will kick people out over it. He wants families to shop there and finds that important. He will enforce that rule even when everyone present is an adult because he wants it to be habit. Some people do complain and he doesn't care. The owner is not religious in any way and there is nothing religious about his store.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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About the "swearing is only for adults" issue: I didn't have a profane vocabulary at 8, but in middle school I rode the bus and EVERYONE swore. I had been taught better, but for a few weeks I took it up to "fit in". After a bit I decided it was ridiculous of me to change my standards for them, and stopped. So for me, when I hear adults who STILL pepper their everyday language with profanity, I consider them immature and wish they'd grow up and learn how to behave in polite society.
quote:Originally posted by vonk: Not that this has anything to do with the current conversation, but after a very poorly thrown dart game last night I realized that I am very capable, and very guilty, of using every horrible explitive I can come up with upwards of a couple dozen times in a half hour period.
Does this kind of thing shock and/or offend the average bystander? Does it shock and/or offend you when you encounter it?
I don't know if I'm average, but yeah, I'd be annoyed. I was in a changing room at the mall the other day with my two preschoolers, and one woman down the way was talking to her friend using a lot of profanity. The friend told her she'd better tone down her language because there were children present. The woman said, "So? I swear around my own kids. Why should I care about anyone else's?"
It was SO hard not to just ... go postal. It wasn't even the profanity so much as the blatant disregard and inconsideration for anyone else, especially when it had been brought to her attention. But I'm not the type to confront - and I had my kids with me - so I TRIED to ignore it. Managed to walk by without giving her a dirty look.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: So for me, when I hear adults who STILL pepper their everyday language with profanity, I consider them immature and wish they'd grow up and learn how to behave in polite society.
This is exactly how I feel.
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: I've never noticed that you have to specify whether or not cursing makes you uncomfortable. I restrain myself around certain people, both personally and professionally, and I've never been instructed to do so by any of them.
You just pick up on what makes people uncomfortable and what standards they use, and then adapt to that.
Exactly. My co-workers and I swear sometimes when speaking to each other, but rarely inside the office. I don't swear if I know there are children about, even if I hurt myself and have to quickly recover...which sounds something like, "F-OW!"
I never even started using the word "butt" until high school, I don't think. Nowadays...sometimes I curse, and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I do it casually, sometimes only when I stub my toe or something.
quote:So for me, when I hear adults who STILL pepper their everyday language with profanity, I consider them immature and wish they'd grow up and learn how to behave in polite society.
That makes sense. If you hear a complete stranger use a curse word it must mean you are better than them. [/sarcasm]
It really does grate on my nerves when people make these blanket assumptions about total strangers. I don't think you can draw an accurate correlation between you feeling that you had to curse to fit in in middle school and the mental capabilities of an adult you've never met.
It's just diction. Some people use different words to say different things. The word isn't wrong or bad, it doesn't hurt anyone. I respect that you don't want it said around your children, and I would venture that it is generally rude to do anything around a person's kids when they have asked you not to. But to say that people that use different diction than you, or were raised by parents who use different diction are in any way lacking as a person is, well, a little bit small minded.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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Yep, I figured it'd be offensive to somebody when I made mention that their behavior was offensive.
Actually, if I hear a complete stranger use a curse word I don't think much about it other than to wince. It's the people I spend time around on a daily basis and hear using profanity as a regular part of their everyday language that I was talking about ... and yes, I do wish those people would learn when and where those things are appropriate and when they're not.
I had a boss who swore at work every day for every little thing. Either he had never been taught that swearing is offensive and is not appropriate everywhere, or he had chosen to ignore the teaching as unimportant. Either way, I think it's time for him to grow up.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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It wasn't that you said it was offensive. You said that it was indicitive of immmaturity and a need to grow up. I don't mind being called offensive. I'm sure everything I do is offensive to someone. Heck, talking to a female that I don't know is probably offensive to a few hundred thousand people. Heck, saying 'heck' is probably offensive to someone.
But I do agree with you that there is a time and place to use curse words. When I'm out at a bar with my friends, I have no qualms with breaking out the diry words. When I'm at work, school or church, I try to refrain. When in a general public place, like shopping center or a restaurant, I will keep them few and far between and at a reasonable level, but I don't feel like I have any obligations to anyone.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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