I did everything by the books, too: no utterance of a colorful word or turn of phrase until I had heard someone else write it on the forum, and now I tune in to find a resurgent polemic on profanity as immaturity. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.
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posted
You're right, Vonk, I did say they were immature. Immaturity has nothing to do with "mental capabilities", though. It has to do with experience, with being able to see how things look from someone else's perspective and caring about that. And it may be immature of me to automatically equate excessive profanity with immaturity. But I do. Because I assume ("assuming", that's me being immature again) that either they don't know better, which denotes a lack of learning and therefore a lack of maturity, or they do know better and don't care, which also denotes immaturity.
Lack of consideration for others denotes immaturity, to me, because in my experience my consideration for helping others be comfortable around me has grown as I have grown. And I still have a long way to go.
All this is just by way of explaining why I don't see swearing as an "adult" thing that shouldn't be done around minors but is okay among adults. I see it more as something to be grown out of.
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quote:Because I assume ("assuming", that's me being immature again) that either they don't know better, which denotes a lack of learning and therefore a lack of maturity, or they do know better and don't care, which also denotes immaturity.
In my experience, as lacking as it may be, these are not the only options.
Edit: And I don't think I know what you mean by "know better". Better than what? Has it been established that cursing is inherently bad somewhere and I just missed it? I understand some people don't like curse words, adn I respect that, but I've yet to see it blanketed as bad and something that people should "know better" than to do. Or is this yet another case of different = bad?
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Edit to respond to your edit: By "know better" I mean that everyone who uses those words knows that they're considered not "polite" and that it is not polite to use them in many situations, and that many people are offended by them, and yet they choose to use them anyway (or at least don't bother to censor themselves at all).
There's no use pretending that this is just a matter of word choice, and that choosing to use profane words instead of others, is as innocuous as choosing to use "will" instead of "shall".
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posted
Because it is the best word for the situation.
Because it conveys an accurate emotion.
Because it rhymes with another word and that is just the only one that'll make your poem work.
Because it completes the pun and makes your friends laugh.
Because there aren't that many words that mean "female dog."
Because sometimes it's the only word that will cause people to pay attention when there is a very hectic situation.
Because it is an incredibly effective way to parody certain people or attitudes.
The list can go on and on. They are just words. There are the same reasons to use them as any other word.
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quote:Edit to respond to your edit: By "know better" I mean that everyone who uses those words knows that they're considered not "polite" and that it is not polite to use them in many situations, and that many people are offended by them, and yet they choose to use them anyway (or at least don't bother to censor themselves at all).
There's no use pretending that this is just a matter of word choice, and that choosing to use profane words instead of others, is as innocuous as choosing to use "will" instead of "shall".
Okay, I think I see where I'm not understanding you. When I justify cursing, I am justifying it in situations where no one will get offended, when I am hanging out with friends, or in the presence of people that I know are not offended. I have agreed time and time again that there are many situations where one should not curse, including in front of anyone who you haven't heard curse before. But to say that all cursing, regardless of context of audience is immature, is, IMO, incorrect.
I am a little dumbfounded that a person can be completely respectful and reiterate their appreciation of your attitude multiple times, and even agree with you on several points, but the only thing they can be is immature. ::shrug::
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posted
I think "immature" is almost kinder. It implies that all that needs to have is some maturation. "Inconsiderate" implies selfishness, which is a much more negative judgement.
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posted
I think "immature" sounds like the person giving the label is trying to feel superior because the other is childish. Mature adults can still be inconsiderate.
posted
I don't think either are particularly accurate, but 'inconsiderate' is probably closer, in that a mature adult can be pushed to the point where they are inconsiderate, but normally are not.
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posted
Okay, I have to say, it's starting to sound like grade school.
"You are *so* Immature." "No, you're immature!" "Stinky-head!"
From now on, can we please consider 'maturity' and all forms of the word a swear word. It would be a refreshing change.
As for 'OMG', I do use that frequently, but never as 'Oh my God'... Oh my Goodness, or gosh is more along the lines of my meaning.
I'm a firm believer in swearing not being a problem, *As long as it doesn't offend anyone*. I put others feelings about swearing before my own, and it's important to consider others' feelings, and I'm extremely sorry about any swearing I've done.
I would like Not to make this a swan song But 'la la la'. I saw others swearing and thought it was acceptable. Again, I'm sorry, and I'll try to avoid it.
But even now, we're not along with the topic. PJ seemed to be cutting off at the swearing becomeing worse. When it comes to behavior, we are always moving one way or the other, so even though 'OMG' may not be terrible, without somebody saying 'please don't say that' we'll end up with WTF's and more swearing. It wasn't meant to debate swearing (If I may be so presumpteous as to speak for PJ), it was meant to ask you to cut back on the swearing, and the lewd phrases.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: Are you saying that mature adults only swear under duress?
No, that's why I said I didn't think either were particularly correct, but if I had to pick one, it would be inconsiderate, not immature. But that's an "if I believed A, I would believe B as a result, not C" type of situation. So, I don't believe A, so neither B or C are correct.
quote:But to say that all cursing, regardless of context of audience is immature, is, IMO, incorrect.
Did I say this?
quote:I am a little dumbfounded that a person can be completely respectful and reiterate their appreciation of your attitude multiple times, and even agree with you on several points, but the only thing they can be is immature.
Ah, but I don't see where I said either of those. In my first post I said I considered adults who pepper their everyday language with profanity to be immature. In subsequent posts I clarified that I was referring to "people who use profanity as a regular part of their everyday language". Let me further clarify that I'm talking about people like my former boss who swore all the time, every day, regardless of place or audience, when we couldn't get away from him. That does denote inconsideration, which to me is a sign of immaturity.
I never said that people who use profanity sometimes and refrain from it when appropriate are immature. I guess because I didn't specifically address the part of your (vonk's) post where you said you agreed with me about "time and place", it was easy to assume I was disagreeing with you or calling you immature. If you feel no need to censor your language at work or around people who are uncomfortable with it, you come across as immature, to me. If that doesn't fit you, I'm not talking about you.
I had a little time to think about this as I shuttled my kids around and I think the reason it seems "immature" to me is because being inconsiderate and ignoring the fact that profanity does offend people and is inappropriate in many places is very self-centered, and I equate being self-centered with immaturity. Like how we're all self-centered when we're young, and as we grow and mature, we become better able to see things from other people's point of view. Although being a certain age does not necessarily bring maturity. If an adult is being inconsiderate, they have room to mature.
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posted
Personally, I disagree that immature is kinder. I would say it's much more condescending. I don't consider that kind.
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posted
Well then, I suppose we have a sort of consensus. Though this...
quote:All this is just by way of explaining why I don't see swearing as an "adult" thing that shouldn't be done around minors but is okay among adults. I see it more as something to be grown out of.
... did strike me as saying that no adult should ever curse, and the other comments combined with that meant that any adult who curses is immature. If I misread, or misinterpretted your meaning, I apologize.
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posted
Some people are morally opposed to colored hair (I don't just mean outrageously colored...I mean ALL colored hair). Does that mean that dyeing your hair and going out in public is immature? Maybe it's inconsiderate to the people who find it offensive...but I don't think it's immature to feel you don't need to cater to everyone's sensabilities. Some people are offended by women wearing pants. I don't think that women who wear pants in public are immature.
quote:Personally, I disagree that immature is kinder. I would say it's much more condescending. I don't consider that kind.
I have to admit, when I hear people like that woman in the dressing room who said she did not care who she offended, "immature" is as kind a word as I can possibly come up with ... and I'm not using it to be kind. It's more like, "Oh, grow up!" When I feel the need to use it, it is not as a compliment.
But I generally only feel the need to use it when someone who is OLD ENOUGH TO BE EXPECTED TO KNOW HOW TO BEHAVE just obviously does not care about anyone but themselves.
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quote:But I generally only feel the need to use it when someone who is OLD ENOUGH TO BE EXPECTED TO KNOW HOW TO BEHAVE just obviously does not care about anyone but themselves.
I suppose it depends on who's doing the expecting. You expect people to "grow out of" swearing. Some people expect others to stop being so oversensitive to mere words.
posted
Jenna, I was disagreeing that immature is kinder than inconsiderate, not responding to your post. Which doesn't really matter, just letting you know that I started typing that before I saw what you had written. I agree that there are places that profanity is more appropriate or less appropriate. In a bar, where you can reasonably expect that there are no children around, I think it's fine. In other public places, it depends both on how crowded it is, how formal it is, how loud you are, and if there are obviously children around. I wouldn't swear at the top of my lungs at a zoo. The woman in the dressing room was certainly uncouth. But there are other places where your "expectations" of how others should behave would be viewed by the majority as immature.
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quote:You expect people to "grow out of" swearing. Some people expect others to stop being so oversensitive to mere words.
I would hope people would grow out of swearing because I realized it was wrong for me and I grew out of it. That's probably nearsighted on my part, taking my experience and projecting it onto the world. Although of course that's all any of us ever do, until we're shown another perspective.
But really what I want people to grow out of is inconsideration of others, just not caring how our actions affect other people - even if they are strangers. I care about how loud my kids get in the library because I care that it bothers other people - complete strangers. I care about showering before I go out because I don't want to offend others. I care about the things I say because I don't want them to be taken the wrong way and inadvertently hurt others. And I would hope others also grow to care about the people around them too.
Most people here have said they know there's a time and place for swearing and that they don't do it at work or church or around people who are uncomfortable with it. Why is that? Because most people here do have consideration for others, and do recognize that "mere words" are very powerful. In fact I would say that perhaps here more than many places, we recognize the power of words.
EDIT: I typed this before I saw Eljay's response.
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posted
Jenna, I'm sure there are people in the world who think that you should stop wearing pants (I'm assuming you have from time to time) and thus dress like a "lady."
quote:Most people here have said they know there's a time and place for swearing and that they don't do it at work or church or around people who are uncomfortable with it. Why is that? Because most people here do have consideration for others, and do recognize that "mere words" are very powerful. In fact I would say that perhaps here more than many places, we recognize the power of words.
I agree totally. But in places where there are fewer people who take offense to swearing, doing so is definitely not a sign of ignorance, immaturity, or a need to "grow out of" anything.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Not that I'm looking to call anyone names, but what do you call it when someone swears at IN-appropriate times, or in contexts where they should know not to? I mean, assuming it's not the result of a physiological condition (like Turret's syndrome), the question arises of what a person who does this consciously is trying to accomplish.
IME, the person is either trying to be an iconoclast or trying to show how mature they are. Sometimes it works out and others "get it." Most of the time, however, I think they just come off as rude (at a minimum), immature and socially inept. And, sadly for them, the judgement will stick even if they had some high-minded intention to their word choices.
Of course, they can just say "who cares" but doesn't that reinforce the judgement of a certain lack of maturity and/or ineptitude in social situations?
What I'm trying to say is this: Whether or not a person swears out of a lack of intellect or maturiry, or for some other purpose, it seems like if their "message" in swearing is going to be interpreted negatively in a situation, then they have either misjudged the situation (and their audience) or they've decided that they don't really care about the people in the audience (or both).
In general, I think swearing is fine and dandy if one is already sure of the positive reaction of the audience, but...for most of the situations I find myself in, that'd be taking a risk of exactly the kinds of judgement we seem to be arguing over. And, for purposes of my own, I prefer walking a path that doesn't involve exposing myself unknowingly to the ill-judgements of others.
I also think it's important to choose one's battles. There certainly are times and places where being offensive to the sensibilities of others is important. For me, the freedom to use swear words in public settings is just not a battle I care to fight. It seems like something I would dislike if I won the prize. Because for all the "good" judicious swearing I might do, I'd probably be exposed to a lot more inappropriate, boring and dreadfully offensiving swearing from others who don't draw the line of reasonableness anywhere near where I would.
In short -- the idea that "people should learn to not take offense at mere words" is great in theory, but not a battle worth my time or energy.
And especially since it's a battle that would be conditional anyway.
Also,
I have yet to hear a swear word used AS a swear word that actually retained the precision of speech that other, more appropriate words would've lent to the utterance. The F-bomb seems like the architypical example of this. I mean, really, if the precise meaning of that word in it's original is appropriate in even 1/100th of the cases in which it is commonly used, I think we have a lot more problems with human sexuality than Kinsey ever dreamed of.
So, far from being le mot juste, I think most of the time people utter swear words as if they had lost conscious control of their utterances and it becomes more like a verbal tic, or gap filler, at best -- a noise devoid of meaning, rather than the one best word for expressing a thought or idea.
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posted
One of the best classes (that is class as in one event, not the whole course) I ever had was in the middle of the course, when my school-marmish english 101 teacher came in and started swearing a blue streak.
The swear words were clearly part of the lesson plan, and it was very well developed. Her argument is that words only have value if they are used appropriately, and in the case of swear words, over-use takes away their power.
We need swear words for extreme situations when we need to make our audience aware of the severity of the emotion behind our words. She had never sworn in class before that day, and she never swore in class again, but on that day, we knew she meant business. Nobody laughed or added their own "colorful metaphors" to her lesson. By the power of hearing her swear, we knew that there was to be no game playing in class that day.
And I'm sure that that lesson stuck with every student that day. But it wouldn't have if we had ever heard her swear without such purpose.
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quote:Of course, they can just say "who cares" but doesn't that reinforce the judgement of a certain lack of maturity and/or ineptitude in social situations?
Um, no? Or at least, not necessarily.
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posted
I do swear in inappropriate situations. It's something I'm not proud of, and I'm working very hard to stop, but things often just pop out before I realize it.
I'm not posting this to try to defend myself. I got the impression from Bob's thread that he assumed people who swore in inappropriate situations did so conciously. In my experience, for most people that's not the case. I think most people just don't realize they're swearing, or swear without thinking. Obviously in the case of the woman in the dressing room, she was just being rude. But with most people it just comes out without thinking.
I know I've sworn in front of my very young cousins several times. I dropped something, or tripped and said one of the many swear words that I say without thinking in that situation. A couple of times I didn't realize I'd sworn until ten minutes later. These situations are the reasons I'm trying to stop swearing at all. I can easily see their parents not letting me see my cousins because I swore around them, and I wouldn't blame them for making that decision. Obviously I can't do the only swearing in appropriate situations thing, so I need to stop swearing at all.
Please understand, I'm not trying to defend anything. This thread just seems to be based on the assumption that people (IRL) always swear conciously. I don't think that's the case.
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quote: in the case of swear words, over-use takes away their power.
I think that's exactly the point. People that are used to hearing swear words don't find much power in the words. There's no difference between saying shoot and a harsher word. Other people choose not to use them because they assign them as bad and thus give them power.
There's nothing intrinsically bad about a certain combination of sounds. It's all about what meaning we give to them. People who say that others are being immature when they curse seem to assume that the people cursing assign the same level of power. While that may be true in some cases, I do not think that it's normal. I'm not sure what value there is in giving these words the power to offend you.
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posted
People who say that others are being immature when they curse seem to assume that the people cursing assign the same level of power.
Actually, the impression I've been getting here is that people who say others are immature when they curse are assuming that the people cursing are insufficiently aware of or insufficiently concerned with how their cursing may be perceived by other people. It's not the meaning assigned, it's the courtesy (or the lack of it) to those around you.
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: People who say that others are being immature when they curse seem to assume that the people cursing assign the same level of power.
Actually, the impression I've been getting here is that people who say others are immature when they curse are assuming that the people cursing are insufficiently aware of or insufficiently concerned with how their cursing may be perceived by other people. It's not the meaning assigned, it's the courtesy (or the lack of it) to those around you.
Exactly!
And blacwolve has it right, I think, in saying that most of the times that swear words are used it appears not to be by conscious choice of the speaker.
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quote:Of course, they can just say "who cares" but doesn't that reinforce the judgement of a certain lack of maturity and/or ineptitude in social situations?
Um, no? Or at least, not necessarily.
I'm trying to think of a third alternative. Since we're talking about swearing in inappropriate situations here, it seems to me that the alternatives boil down to those two.
I was trying to make room for the option of "well, those people were being idiots and just NEEDED swearing at" but then, that really is a conscious choice to make a point and wouldn't be so much inappropriate as it would be a social statement. Of course, I might argue that even there the swearing isn't so important as the content of what else you say to get your message across...
Anyway, I'm not really seeing the other alternatives there...
posted
They are both negative, but while condescension isn't great, thinking someone is immature holds out some hope. Thinking someone is instead rude and inconsiderate obliterates that hope. Hope is better than no hope.
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quote:Of course, they can just say "who cares" but doesn't that reinforce the judgement of a certain lack of maturity and/or ineptitude in social situations?
Um, no? Or at least, not necessarily.
I'm trying to think of a third alternative. Since we're talking about swearing in inappropriate situations here, it seems to me that the alternatives boil down to those two.
The obvious one that comes to my mind is a lack of agreement on what constitutes an "inappropriate" situation.
Added:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: They are both negative, but while condescension isn't great, thinking someone is immature holds out some hope. Thinking someone is instead rude and inconsiderate obliterates that hope. Hope is better than no hope.
I'll take being considered a lost cause over being condescended to any day of the week.
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posted
I don't see such a judgment, in the context of something as trivial as profanity use, as very likely to start us sliding down a slippery slope.
Added: Furthermore, insofar as I think your statement might be valid, it's comparably true for condescention.
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quote:It's not the meaning assigned, it's the courtesy (or the lack of it) to those around you.
I do not think that is the position everbody is advocating. Some people have specificially stated they find cursing to be immature even apart from the courtesy aspect.
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posted
This is circular, but condescension does still leave hope. Writing each other off is the end to everything - there's nothing to work on. Condescension keeps hope and the relationship alive, so it is possible to improve.
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If Joe considers Ralph a lost cause in the sphere of profanity, it doesn't necessasrily mean that Ralph considers Joe a lost cause in the sphere of prudishness. In fact, it isn't inconceivable that they could remain friends, depending on how much Ralph likes to swear and how much Joe dislikes hearing it.
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posted
People can learn not to be rude. I hope so, at least.
I think I prefer being thought rude because then it's under my control. I can change my behavior. If I'm thought immature, then I can't change it, only more growth and experience can.
Also, if I'm thought rude at one point in time, then I can still be a perfectly good person at all others. If I'm thought immature, then all of me is immature, all the time.
As I verbalize these, I realize that they don't make complete sense. They are my gut instincts when I hear someone say I'm immature, though.
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posted
Condescension kills any hope of relationship for me. If someone condescends to me, I pretty much don't want to interact with them any more. I may be the only person to feel that way, but I doubt it.
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posted
To me inconsiderateness and rudeness imply selfishness, which is the dealbreaker for me. I can handle being condescended to - at least they are paying attention to me. Selfishness means I might as well not be there at all, in which case I will oblige them.
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posted
I wouldn't say it automatically kills any hope of a relationship for me, but I certainly take a dim view of it if it comes from someone purporting to be my friend.
Added: It being condescention.
Added 2: Insofar as the egocentrism implied by selfishness is concerned, it's almost a non-issue for me below a certain flagrancy threshold.
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posted
Do you handle a friend being rude better? That's not a challenge - I'm honestly curious. Maybe it's a matter of taste in what we don't mind and what we need. I love all kinds of well-meant attention, even the annoying kind.
On the other hand, rudeness or cutting remarks or general selfishness I have very little patience with - I like being around sweet, kind, and well-meaning, and rudeness doesn't usually seem to fit that.
posted
Personally, if it's a friend being rude, I'm more inclined to cut them slack (maybe they're having a hard day, for example). I guess because I think I know who these people are generally, I am far more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt when rude behavior comes up. Condescension, on the other hand, implies to me that they've always had a negative opinion of me and they've just been reigning it in. From friends, though, all it takes is an apology to negate both.
As far as strangers go...I guess for me condescension is a subset of rudeness. I don't really like either behavior, but condescension seems much more specifically aimed.
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