posted
I think you missed the point of my gripe. I am quite interested in other people's opinions here (or I wouldn't read this thread) but I take exception to people saying (without references) that they think something is clear when it is not explicit at all in the text.
As for those quotes of mine...you took both completely out of context. In the first, I was talking about the fact that she has always completed a story arc by the end of each book and left nothing of the main mystery of each book in doubt. In the second, I was saying that a scene that had convinced someone else that Snape was good made me think the opposite...it "sealed it FOR ME" that Snape was evil. Neither one of these were what I like to call "shut out" arguments. When you say, "Well, I thought it was perfectly clear..." it's a shut out. Without offering evidence, you are trying to make the other person feel inferior and end the debate.
[Edit: I just want to add that I don't believe any of the posters (especially Tom, who actually seems very nice most of the time) tried to use a shut out argument on purpose. I'm not even sure if this is the proper terminology. I should go get my old philosophy textbook back out and look up the section on rhetoric because there is a specific name for it. ]
If we can, I'd really prefer to put this thread back on topic. I would particularly like to hear why it is so "clear" that Snape didn't know Malfoy's mission. I have now asked for specifics three times, apparently not very nicely!
quote:As for those quotes of mine...you took both completely out of context.
No, I was pointing out that you used identical language in a way that did not shut down arguments, and that Tom's use of similar language likewise did not shut down arguments.
In other words, I absolutely depended on using the proper context in making my point - which was that you took Tom out of context in your gripe by not referencing his opening phrase, "I've always thought..."
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Christine, I don't have the book near, so I can't quote you anything. And really, all I can say is that I had a gut feeling during the whole 'unbreakable vow' scene that Snape was bluffing. I know that's not concrete at all and I'm excited to find out if I'm wrong. Someone else had the same gut feeling when she wrote the Harry Potter 6 Parody. She parodied that scene as follows:
BELLATRIX laser-zaps a fox, just to be evil, then continues chasing NARCISSA MALFOY down the street, the two of them keeping up a steady stream of "Should so!", "Should not!", "Should so!", "Should not!", while READERS wonder what the hell they are thinking of doing or not doing. They knock on a door. SNAPE opens it. BELLATRIX: Trick or treat! SNAPE: I hate you both. Come in. NARCISSA: I have a favor to ask. BELLATRIX: But since we're here, Snape, tell us how come you've managed not to kill Harry Potter, or find out anything useful about Dumbledore, or really do anything evil except sneer at everybody for the last five years. Are you truly Dark, or are you just an outgrown Goth kid? SNAPE: Me and the Dark Lord, we're like *this*. (doing the two-fingers-close-together thing) That's all you need to know. So, your favor, Narcissa? NARCISSA: My poor, sweet, innocent son Draco needs help completing The Plan. Do you know about The Plan? SNAPE: Of course I know about The Plan. READERS: You could fill us in on The Plan. NARCISSA: Promise me you'll help. SNAPE: Okay. BELLATRIX: I dare you to make the Unbreakable Vow over it. SNAPE: Fine. BELLATRIX sets an Unbreakable Vow around their wrists while SNAPE vows to carry out The Plan if DRACO fails. READERS: Hm. Well, I'm sure he'll find a way to wriggle out of that.
I'm mostly including that because it's hilarious, but it perfectly illustrates why I feel like Snape was bluffing. The whole conversation was very ambiguous, which of course was Rowling's point. I just tend to lean toward the "It couldn't be the OBVIOUS because she took such pains to make it ambiguous." But, she could be playing me for a fool. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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I reread the scene again today, just out of curiosity. I'm still torn. I got to tell you, I was annoyed when I first read that chapter. It still is my least favorite chapter of the whole series and (confession time) I skipped over it when I reread the book. The obvious withholding of information was poorly done, IMHO. Rowling seemed to be singing, "I know something you don't know!" in the background. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
How could that scene be improved, though? I mean, assuming Snape didn't know the plan, but wanted to bolster his appearance of closeness with Voldemort to his rivals within the Death Eaters?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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