quote:I'd say to download it, but I look at premium channels a little bit differently than normal cable or local channels. Since there are no ads on HBO they really have no income other than their subscriber base.
They do have DVD sales. That's how I'm rationalizing it to myself right now. I don't have tv at all and having HBO involves having basic cable as well as paying for the premium channels and there's just no way I'm doing that. If I buy the DVDs when it comes out, I think it negates the immorality of downloading the show right now. And I believe HBO factors DVD sales in to their equations.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think both of them have similar lips, but I don't think they overly resemble each other.
Something bothered me (I don't know if that's the right term since it wasn't negative) about Dany's look too. Then I realized the actress is actually brunette and I think that's what it was.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just watched the latest episode (episode 5)... and I think I found what has been bothering me about show.
It lacks the empathy that made the books so powerful. Many horrible, violent things happen in the books... but the reason you care so much is because the characters feel real, you've come to love them and can't stand to see them hurt. (I know several people who threw their book across the room after reading about the red wedding in Storm)
*some spoilers*
I realize a lot of it has to do with the condensed nature of the show, but I think a lot of it has to do with how the scenes are filmed. In the book, Jory's death was a pretty shocking, saddening thing. Some of it is because his character's a lot more fleshed out in the book, especially his teasing friendship with Arya. But a lot of that has to do with how it's portrayed: Jaime saying "kill his men" and riding off, a short desperate battle, and then flashing forward to Ned sitting in the rain cradling Jory's lifeless body, himself barely conscious from the pain in his broken leg.
In the TV show, it changes to Jaime casually stabbing Jory in the eye, then having a long sword fight with Eddard. Ned's reaction to his death is just simple anger, and the focus of the scene becomes a dual between him and Jaime. Jory gets demoted to random extra who gets stabbed in a fight, you forget about it almost as soon as it happens.
This happens with a lot of scenes. Dany and Drogo's night by the river under the stars, one of the most touching scenes from the book where Drogo first comes to love Dany, gets demoted to some weird softcore porn scene in the tent. They've already spent many valuable minutes showing Littlefinger and Varys talk, or long drawn out scenes of the men talking to their prostitutes/boyfriend, but they either omit or rush through a lot of the scenes that would actually make you care for these people.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, show isnt good as the books. Still rocks.
Also, Jaime casually stabbing Jory in the eye is a parallel with the way he killed Aerys--unfairly. That was memorably cheap. And Little Finger vs Aerys was awesome.
Posts: 1407 | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't seem to remember the kings brother and the knight of flowers being gay on each other in the book...anyone recall?
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
Anyone else disappointed by the Eyrie? Instead of being a mountain top, it was like a giant column of rock.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
My memory of the gay relationship was that it was more subtle. It was there, but it wasn't like in center stage.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:My memory of the gay relationship was that it was more subtle. It was there, but it wasn't like in center stage.
This is true. It's pretty obvious by the third book if you are paying attention, but it still can be missed. My spoiler thread had Eddie's mind blown when he read that speculation.
I haven't seen the 5th episode yet, so I'm not sure how it is presented in the show.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I won't ruin it for you (eww), but let's just say you'll understand my question better after seeing it.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wait what? I don't remember Renley and The Knight of Flowers that way.
Renley had a thing for Margaery and The Knight of Flowers came across as a ladies man to me.
Do you remember where it alluded to this relationship in the first two books? I just started the third book so I don't know if it will delve into it later.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote: This happens with a lot of scenes. Dany and Drogo's night by the river under the stars, one of the most touching scenes from the book where Drogo first comes to love Dany, gets demoted to some weird softcore porn scene in the tent. They've already spent many valuable minutes showing Littlefinger and Varys talk, or long drawn out scenes of the men talking to their prostitutes/boyfriend, but they either omit or rush through a lot of the scenes that would actually make you care for these people.
\
Well, look-scenes are going to be truncated. I mean, that's just going to happen. I'm a bit unhappy with it too, but... that's just to be expected. A story like this, told on television in one hour shots, you just can't afford to have people wondering, "OK, what the hell is going on?" They'll lose interest. You need a scene with some dialogue, such as between Varys and Littlefinger. They're hugely important to what's going on, but it's all behind the scenes. Some of what's behind the scenes has to be shown. Jory? I was never expecting him to be portrayed as a very meaningful character-or even for his death to get that kind of treatment. Disappointed, sure, but that's the cost of doing business, at least to me.
As for the strange choices in gratuitous hooker nudity, I can say that they've cut substantially back on that, and the only scene they had in this latest episode was actually pretty meaningful-to set up Theon's character, his grasping (but understandable) jealousy and insecurity, and what it leads him to do, and what it might lead him to do. He's already lusting after (in his head) what other people have had.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not saying those scenes were wasted necessarily, so far almost all of the added dialogue has been well used to give the viewers the same info that readers would get from GRRM talking about it in the 3rd person. Theon's hooker scene actually does a good job of developing him as a character, as opposed to Viserys' from the last episode, which just gives mostly trivial information. (we already know he's batpoo crazy from the get go) They don't even have to spend any extra time to make you care about the characters, it's more about how the scenes are shot. It all feels very inhuman at the moment. A look, a gesture, a touch, a gentle smile... they can do so much to tell you about a person.
Hooker boobies are all fine and good, but we already have the internet for that... I actually wouldn't mind if they just got rid of them altogether, since they all seem to be rather jarring and awkwardly placed. I don't think anyone here would be griping about boobs if they fit in with the flow of the story.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Awkwardly placed boobs pretty much have to be naked. It is such a chore to try to find shirts when your boobs aren't in the usual place.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
So much so that she was a virgin well after her wedding to him, eh?
quote: and The Knight of Flowers came across as a ladies man to me.
Heh.
There's an exchange in book 3 (with Loras and Jaime) that makes it obvious. Before then you'd need to be paying pretty close attention.
It's been confirmed by Martin, IRRC.
That may be, but I think you are confused. Renley married Margaery the day Stannis showed up. He was killed before he was able to consumate.
Stannis has no heir and comments are made in the first and second books as to whether or not Stannis even likes women. Cersei even goes so far as to spread rumors that his fool is the one who got his wife pregnant, with his daughter as a result.
If any of them gave off the impression of being gay I'd say it was Stannis.
edit: Unfortunately when I google it I get nothing but discussion on the latest TV episode. The one reference I found seemed to echo what you wrote. I guess I was just oblivious to it.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:That may be, but I think you are confused. Renley married Margaery the day Stannis showed up. He was killed before he was able to consumate.
Its been a few years since I read A Clash of Kings, but your timeline here seems to be a bit off. When Catelyn shows up (ACOK 341) it seems the two are already married. Cat refers to her as "his young queen".
I don't believe they got married at Bitterbridge (where the tourney took place). They were married sometime before they set out on the march. The alliance with Tyrell was sealed with their marriage, before they set out. The two were married, and then Renly spends several weeks farting around in the south slowly marching and staging the tourney where Cat runs into them.
When she is to marry Joffrey later, I vaguely remember some characters are skeptical about her virginity claims.
So I'm sorry, but as far as I can tell it is you that is confused.
Edit: Though if you have a page reference that says otherwise, I'm all ears. Even if this one particular piece of evidence doesn't hold weight, there is quite a bit else that makes it crystal clear. Just keep reading .
I figured Stannis was just because he had no heir and people questioned why he never seemed to spend time with his wife. Someone even said something to the effect of "Stannis hears the drums of battle when he goes to his bed chambers" or something to that effect.
But...wow. Renley eh? Anyone else I should know about? I'm about 50 pages into the third book. I usually stay away from Fantasy, but after reading the first two books of the Kingkiller Chronicles and reading these, I don't know why I don't read more fantasy.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
There's some speculation about the Blackfish (Brynden Tully), with his refusal to get married. It's not something there's a lot of evidence for, however.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Other than his lack of being married, I don't remember ANY evidence about the Blackfish being gay. With Renly, there was evidence all over the place.
If Brynden is gay, however, it would do really interesting things for a compare/contrast between him and Loras. One of the things I like the most about Martin's character creation in ASOIAF is that he defines gender norms and then very carefully defies and deconstructs them. It's a male-dominated society, but you have women like Cersei, who is basically a man in a woman's body in her thirst for power and her drive to control other people. But then you also have Brienne, an asexual woman who basically lives a male life, but on the grittier side of the coin from Cersei. And there are lots of other examples of interesting female characters, like the juxtaposition of Arya and Sansa, though their being children sort of softens it.
But with Loras, you have a male figure in a bit of a feminine role (but with a twist!). First off: he's a moron. He literally says at one point that he doesn't look books that don't have pictures. And we all know he's a pretty boy, which more or less paints him as a bit of an airhead. But on the other hand, he's a badass.
I think the only character who actually embodies a role his gender is stereotypically associated with, and who is around for longer than a single book, is Jaime in his fatherhood issues, but even that is barely touched on, and frankly I would really like to see more with it. Exploring Jaime's feelings on Joffrey and Tommen were some of the most interesting, and for Jaime, most humanizing aspects of the third/fourth books.
I don't normally spend a lot of time with gender theory, but the way that Martin twists gender role norms and expectations has really made for some fascinating characters, and I think, does a service to exploring how we traditionally define gender roles.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
While watching last night's episode, the use, again, of doggy-style had me thinking about why they do this. Since the sex is fake, it seems like doggy-style would be easier to fake and still look enthusiastic than other positions. Thoughts? TMI?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think it's used to show male dominance and degrading sex. For instance, when Dany starts into her own power, one of the first thing she does is to put a stop to being sexed like a horse, and claim her own sexual power, and make a claim on Drogo.
The scene with Theon I think was supposed to contrast the scene with Tyrion. Theon was violent, belligerent and generally a bastard, while Tyrion was all about enjoyment and wit, and did I detect a bit of kindness?
While all that is true for the symbolism of the act, rear entry position isn't necessarily any kind of negative in real life.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Thanks...must have slipped loose.
Anyone else disappointed by the Eyrie? Instead of being a mountain top, it was like a giant column of rock.
It's at the top of a huge mountain it's just that the mountain has been hollowed out. I for one think it looks fantastic.
Posts: 305 | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Geraine: Wait what? I don't remember Renley and The Knight of Flowers that way.
Renley had a thing for Margaery and The Knight of Flowers came across as a ladies man to me.
Do you remember where it alluded to this relationship in the first two books? I just started the third book so I don't know if it will delve into it later.
Nope Renly and Loras were clearly gay in the books.It's commented on several times buy several characters. It's just that in the books we didn't have either of them as point of view characters,
Posts: 305 | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think one thing is clear, the books imply a gay relationship without ever saying for sure, or showing it.
The series shows it in graphic detail. Quite different.
It was a bit of a shock to me personally, but I read the series a while back so I likely forgot the implications.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Thanks...must have slipped loose.
Anyone else disappointed by the Eyrie? Instead of being a mountain top, it was like a giant column of rock.
It's at the top of a huge mountain it's just that the mountain has been hollowed out. I for one think it looks fantastic.
Well, I was let down as well by it. In the book Caitlyn had to climb for a very long time and had to pass by three towers on her way up. The TV show made it look like there was just a long bridge.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, she almost did climbing it. (she almost fell off a mule or something and a bastard girl saved her)
Posts: 1407 | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Finally saw the episode, thank goodness for DVR.
Anyway, obviously the relationship was presented a whole lot more "in your face" here. However, I think its probably a good choice as they need to establish the bond such that the Tyrell/Renly alliance ends up making sense for season 2. Readers seem to take a lot more stuff in stride than TV viewers do.
Renly is very different from the character in the book that happens to share his name, but I think I've decided that I am okay with that. I initially thought it was terrible casting, but really they just decided to change the character. I'm not so invested in Renly that I find myself upset over it. I'm interested in seeing how this very different Renly develops.
I still notice every scene/dialogue/characterization that is different from the book, but now when I notice it I don't immediately reject it. The show is a different entity, and they're doing a pretty good job of putting out a quality show. I'm starting to trust their decisions more.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I think one thing is clear, the books imply a gay relationship without ever saying for sure, or showing it.
The series shows it in graphic detail. Quite different.
It was a bit of a shock to me personally, but I read the series a while back so I likely forgot the implications.
Well in the books they were never point of view characters. We had to rely on other characters thoughts on the matter.
The shows way is better. It sheds light on Renly and the actions he takes in the future. It also explains why House Tyrel supported him.
Posts: 305 | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Thanks...must have slipped loose.
Anyone else disappointed by the Eyrie? Instead of being a mountain top, it was like a giant column of rock.
It's at the top of a huge mountain it's just that the mountain has been hollowed out. I for one think it looks fantastic.
Well, I was let down as well by it. In the book Caitlyn had to climb for a very long time and had to pass by three towers on her way up. The TV show made it look like there was just a long bridge.
Find the picture online. It's a very long very narrow bridge that goes to the base of the mountain then spirals way up one of the pillars. She would have had to climb for a very long time.
posted
I don't particularly care for that. The Eyrie in the book sounded so much more forbidding, desolate, and for that matter, impregnable. That's just a long causeway. That looks a lot more like what The Twins look like in my imagination. Just add a tower.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tyrion, as usual, stole the show. Although this time he had some great competition from Ned, Dany, and Khal Drogo.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
.
