posted
As to the too-hot bath thing - not only do I agree with CT that she is trying to get rid of hmi touching her, but the Targaryens have always had a connection to fire and this may be one way of showing that.
Though I know GRRM has said that Dany is not immune to fire, this is one way of visually showing that link to fire and heat that is associated with Dany's line.
SPOILERS * * * * * * * * * * If the first season follows book one, then we can presume it ends with her hatching her dragon eggs. So, for the people who have not read the books, this may be subtle hint leading up to that event that helps explain why the fire doesn't kill her. * * * * * * * * * * END SPOILERS
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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The wall and everything north of it was awesome, even with the changes from the book.
The prologue was awesome, even if I desperately wanted to see the swordfight with the Other.
Tyrion, Ned, Brandon, and Arya were absolutely perfectly cast I thought.
The heartswood scene looked just like a poster I own, which is either an interesting coincidence or a great tribute.
Overall I liked it, and I'll probably watch it again at least one more time before next week.
Now some things I am grumpy about:
They cut all of Dany's character growth. Her ride on her silver horse was something of a defining moment for her breaking free from her brother and proving herself to her husband. "Tell Khal Drogo he has given me the wind". She also ended up giving herself to Drogo freely with her "yes" after all the "no". As it was shown in the show it was basically rape, while in the book this scene actually showed Drogo to be pretty decent guy to Dany. Cutting these two things meant she didn't actually grow at all in the episode.
Now I was talking to Niki about this, and I'm thinking they are just showing her weak longer in the show, since you don't have time to see how weak she was before these scenes in the accelerated format. Still, seeing my favorite scenes neutered like that was painful. They also didn't show the abuse her brother subjected her to, only hinted about it.
Also Theon telling Jon he gets the albino/runt was the exact opposite of the scene in the book. In the book this is Jon being defiant and cocky, not being passive and weak.
Last was that Catelyn in the book was the one who convinced Ned he had to say yes to the offer. She was the one who correctly read the politics and knew that saying no would make an enemy of the king. Instead they gave Luwin her arguments and had her argue against what the same character said in the book. Was pretty jarring to me. Again this changed the nature of the character. She's not the politically savvy lady of the house, she's the weak and needy housewife.
So mostly the things I didn't like were scenes that gave the opposite effect as the scene from the book. I don't mind changes, but changes that pull a 180 in characterization are hard for me to stomach.
Posts: 80 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Belle: My brother mentioned that about the eggs, the bath makes more sense, with that sort of background information. It's true the show is going to try to cater to some degree to those who have already read the books, dropping subtle nods and hints. The rest of us should just be glad we're being let in at all. Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I am liking it so far. I just have two problems, I agree completely that it would have been much more compelling to see Danerys acceptance and perhaps even love for her new husband.
Second, I don't really like the opening credits. It feels steampunk to me, which clashes with the story. Minor quibble I know.
I love Tyrian, he is going to be lots of fun to watch and Sean Bean is perfect as Ned.
Posts: 891 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
I might be the only person alive who was fine with the Dany/Drogo scene. Well, fine isn't the right word. Shocked and horrified might be more accurate. It was brutally powerful precisely because, as someone who read the books multiple times, I wasn't expecting it. It's very possible Dany's "yes" will be worked in later. I hope so. But frankly, doing it this way fits the pacing of TV much better. If they blow right past Dany's helplessness, it cheapens her later growth.
Basically, HBO has told those familiar with the series that although we know the large events will happen, we do not know how they will happen. This kind of thing is exactly why people like Martin in the first place. This is a subtle nod to the author in a way I think he'd appreciate.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:He's been heavily involved with the series, so I think it's likely he does appreciate it.
Yeah, though I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for the more "heated discussions" he references in his blog between him and the show runners.
I do think you are correct, Juxtapose, in that the changes were due to the necessity of TV pacing. In the book we got to spend a lot of time in her head to see just how under her brother's thumb she was, while on TV they need to establish her weakness before the growth is meaningful.
I do wish they'd have been able to do so without cutting perhaps my favorite Dany scene (the horse ride), but I'll live .
Posts: 80 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I also hated the Dany/Drogo scene. Reading you guys' responses I guess I can see why they chose to do it this way. But in the book, we totally understood why Dany came to love Drogo. He was very good to her. I have a much harder time believing that she could fall so deeply in love with him (her Sun and Stars) when he has no problem raping her. I hope umberhulk is right and it was a fakeout.
While I love Lena Headey, I don't think she's the right fit for Cersei. Lena Headey, in all her roles including this one, comes across as a person who is tough, reserved, and deep. While Cersei is certainly tough and complex, she's not supposed to appear that way. She's supposed to come across as a stereotypical gorgeous blond who's unspeakably charming. Lena Headey can certainly handle the complex aspects of Cersei, but I have less faith in her portrayal of Cersei's more duplicitous face.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Yeah, I can see a writer thinking the end of that scene as an attention grabber for the second episode.
And I think the end of that scene says more about Drogo than Dany, actually. Because he asks. And, well, thats part of how Dany comes to love him.
Posts: 1407 | Registered: Oct 2008
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Well to be fair even if in the show it is as it appears, and Drogo did basically rape his weeping bride on the grass...I could still see how she could come to love him and even call him by that name.
Love being a subjective thing, and Dany coming from a, well, pretty awful background that's going to be poking her on the shoulder going, "Hey, hey, it's me, your brother! Who's going to be constantly pointing out you're an object to me and I despise you except for your usefulness to me, personally!" And her being raised not just with the expectation that love in marriage will happen, but that gentle lovemaking will happen...anyway. You get my drift. I'm not saying it will happen or that it should. Just that, from a storytelling standpoint, it could still and remain plausible.
But I think the fake-out is a possibility...either that or they do some serious fleshing out of both Dany and Drogo as time passes. There's some work to be done there, to get things closer to the source material, I think-not that I didn't think the first episode was super-rad.
As for Cersei...well, it's really too soon to tell for her, I think. We haven't seen her engage in any of her machinations, or seen her do so while up against any actual clever schemers (notably her brother, or Littlefinger). So right now what I got from her was just a 'I'm tough, I really don't like my husband - with good reason - and don't f@#k with me, peasant.' That seems pretty appropriate for where things stand so far in the show.
I think they hit the Stark family very, very nicely. One thing that was puzzling to me: if they were going to have so much gratuitous nudity, why not have some nudity of Cat (or is it Kat? I can't remember) in front of their Maester and Ned, with that very appropriate and adult line along the lines of, "I've born you five children, this is serious business, and I don't have time to deal with that nonsense," when there was a scandalous response to her getting out from under the covers nekkid in front of her husband and the Maester. Instead we get lots of prostitutes, some Dothraki, and Dany. That struck me as strange, that choice being made. Perhaps it was a behind-the-scenes actress choice? Or something.
I like Jaime so far. Lots of possibility there. Tyrion too, but like Cersei it's really too soon to tell how well he'll do with the heavier stuff.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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This part did bother me. Tyrion isn't the sort to be shy talking about his vices, and in the books that served to establish his character nicely. It didn't seem necessary at all.
The only defense I can come up with is that the director is trying to drive home how patriarchal this world is. Many of the female POVs revolve around challenging that patriarchy, so it DOES need to be well established.
I do think you're right about the scene with Cat and Ned, Rakeesh. It could have made a nice counterpoint the overtly sexualized nudity.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
It could be that the prostitute he was talking to there will be Shae, because of the compressed nature of the show.
I think that Cat objecting was fine....as we all know, her objections are on target, and she is completely right. Also, she DID object at first in the book, and didn't want him to go.
The series made it look like they were forced into the decision by the news that Jon Arryn was murdered, which is pretty much how I remember it from the book. Neither of them liked the idea, but they felt it necessary.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
To clarify, I didn't necessarily mind the lots of prostitutes nudity in and of itself for my own sake. (That sounds like dude sayin', 'Yeah, no complaints about boobs from me!') But what I mean is that story-telling wise, I could see that decision being made. But in an episode where you're going to make that decisions - boobs boobs boobs over here - it just seemed strange to me not to also use 'the girls' where they can add some serious characterization. *shrug* Maybe it's just Main Character Nudity-something that doesn't happen very often. Or at least I don't think it does-I could be wrong.
I think I've said the word 'boobs' more in this post than I have than in the past year except cracking jokes back and forth with my sister (in fairness to my sense of taste, she usually initiates) in response to this episode.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
(I'm not sure if we're forsaking spoiler warnings, but I'll tack one on to the front of this. Minor spoilers below.)
The boobs were actually the only thing I warned my friends about before we sat down to watch it the other night. And at the end, every one of them said "Oh wow, there were a lot of boobs, even for HBO."
And yeah, the only thing that truly bothered me was the whole Dany and Drogo thing, for the reasons already discussed here. I also had the same thought as Belle - Dany in the super-hot bath is foreshadowing her being more dragonly than Viserys, and able to stand the heat that will lead to the dragons hatching.
In related news, Viserys and Joffrey were perfectly cast as total freaking creepers. Joff hasn't even said a word yet, and I want to punch him in the face. I kept delighting in the thought that both of their death scenes will be epic.
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posted
One question I have after watching episode 1 is how did the night watch deserter crossed the wall if all the openings to the outside are secured.
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posted
Since a big complaint about the show here seems to be the nudity, I'd like to ask what the problem is with nudity for its own sake, rather than some artistic point?
People like nudity, it brings in viewers. So what's the beef?
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Originally posted by alasdefuego: One question I have after watching episode 1 is how did the night watch deserter crossed the wall if all the openings to the outside are secured.
There are some difficult ways to cross or get around the Wall, that wildlings and experienced Night's Watchmen would know about.
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Originally posted by jebus202: People like nudity, it brings in viewers. So what's the beef?
I had no beef. The level was just more than I expected. In this case, I intended that to be a value-neutral observation.
Posts: 831 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I don't have beef, except that it *might* end up being off-putting to some viewers and make the show less popular to a wider audience for a minimal storytelling gain.
Well, I do have a beef with the decision to omit the Cat nudity scene but include extra nudity scenes (or at least implied nudity scenes-I don't recall the book well enough to say for sure if they were in it), because I feel the Cat scene was pretty important in showing what sort of person she was.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Well the Dany nude scenes, and the scene with Cersei and Jaime, were absolutely in the book (actually I think in the book Jaime and Cersei were even more naked). The only new nudity was the scene with Tyrion.
Overall, I see what you're saying Rakeesh, but on the other hand, if the show ends up being faithful to the books re: nudity/sex then there will still be an awful lot of both in the future of the show. May not be a bad idea to signal to viewers now that it's a show that doesn't balk from showing that sort of thing.
*book spoiler warning*
I mean, just off the top of my head we see, in the novels, explicit nudity and sex involving: Tyrion and Shae, Jon and Ygritte, Theon and a nameless girl, Dany and Drogo, Dany and her handmaidens, Jaime and Cersei, Arianne and Arys, Sam and Gilly... and I'm positive there are plenty more I'm forgetting. The books are pretty rife with explicit sex and nudity, all things considered. Just as explicit as they are with violence and savagery.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: That Tyrion scene established a friendship between Tyrion and Jaime, and it sold me on that actor pretty quick. I think he's awesome.
Plus I dunno, it felt right to give Tyrion a chunk of screen time. Instead of just having the scene with Jon.
I agree with this, by the way. The added scene totally worked for me.
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quote: Overall, I see what you're saying Rakeesh, but on the other hand, if the show ends up being faithful to the books re: nudity/sex then there will still be an awful lot of both in the future of the show. May not be a bad idea to signal to viewers now that it's a show that doesn't balk from showing that sort of thing.
Sure, but my beef (and though I'm talking about this, it's not a huge complaint or even a substantial complaint from me) is that again, if they're going to have nudity up front to showcase that the show isn't going to be shy about it, why not include some of the nudity from a scene that is particularly important to character development?
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Man, Catelyn Stark is far from ugly. `nuff said.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I agree that her being nude in that scene was important for her character, but having Ned and her having sex in that scene was perhaps even more important. The couple chatting chastely in bed didn't have the same effect. Its one of the only "healthy" sex scenes in the whole book.
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quote:Not everyone has to look like a movie star, you know. [Big Grin]
But those who are playing characters whose beauty is something of a plot point maybe should be attractive .
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Now I will say that she isn't as classically beautiful as I expected her to be from the books. Didn't quite fit my hazy image, y'know? So I see where you're coming from there, Xavier. On the other hand, she has been in the North for quite some time and while she's not exactly been slumming it, Winterfell isn't King's Landing and she is five kids further along in life with a harder piece of living (or at least, less easy) than other highborn women in ASoI&F would have seen elsewhere in the Kingdoms. So in that respect, it fits.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote: Overall, I see what you're saying Rakeesh, but on the other hand, if the show ends up being faithful to the books re: nudity/sex then there will still be an awful lot of both in the future of the show. May not be a bad idea to signal to viewers now that it's a show that doesn't balk from showing that sort of thing.
Sure, but my beef (and though I'm talking about this, it's not a huge complaint or even a substantial complaint from me) is that again, if they're going to have nudity up front to showcase that the show isn't going to be shy about it, why not include some of the nudity from a scene that is particularly important to character development?
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Man, Catelyn Stark is far from ugly. `nuff said.
Oh I agree with you 100% here, that scene didn't need to change.
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posted
Cat strikes me as the kind of woman who would have been gorgeous 20 years ago and has still managed to maintain some of that, while adding a LOT of wisdom and dignity. If she displays the same sort of character and strength in the show that she did in the book, I can see why a Littlefinger would go to war over her.
Posts: 891 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
CT your interpretation of the Scalding bath scene is correct. She is trying to purify herself and get away from the world. She does it several times in the book. However there is a second meaning to it. She is a Targaryen. Of the dragon's blood. She can handle heat far better than most people and several times in the books she purposely takes scalding baths as a way to reassure herself. To say " This is who and what I am and I can endure anything"
Posts: 305 | Registered: Jan 2008
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alasdefuego about the wall. An ongoing theme of the books is that "Winter is Coming" (a BIG deal in this world) but everyone is to caught up in their own squabbles to prepare for it.. The Night's Watch who garrison and maintain the wall are seriously underfunded and undermanned. They can't guard all of the paths through the wall or repair all the cracks and weak points in it. So the deserter simply went through an unguarded gate.
EDIT also as the story opens the people of the 7 kingdoms are enjoying their 9th year of summer. So a lot of people are sort of blowing off just what years or even decades of coming Winter will be like.
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quote:Cat strikes me as the kind of woman who would have been gorgeous 20 years ago and has still managed to maintain some of that, while adding a LOT of wisdom and dignity. If she displays the same sort of character and strength in the show that she did in the book, I can see why a Littlefinger would go to war over her.
&
quote:She is kind of the Helen of Troy in all this. Littlefinger starts this war largely based on his being rejected by Cat years ago.
I don't know that Littlefinger starts the war(s), or that they're over Cat specifically. Certainly Cat's rejection of him hit him quite hard (understatement), and was really formative in his life...but the way I view him, that set him up as, "I'm in this for me now-other people are secondary. I still like Cat though...maybe." I'm not really clear if he's still carrying a torch for her in the sense that he loves her, or is saving her for some vengeance further down the line.
Anyway, I don't think all of the wars that have transpired can be laid at his door-he's certainly made `em worse and if he'd tried to mitigate instead of add fuel things would've been much better, but this is a world with Jaime and Cersei and the Targaryens across the Narrow Sea and the Baratheons in it.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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It's interesting to think about what would have happened if not for Littlefinger's meddling.
Stannis and Jon Arryn knew about the kids' parentage, and surely were going to reveal that info to Robert. At this point I don't think Jaime and Cersei knew what those two were brewing, though I could be wrong. I wonder if Varys would have told them, given his own mysterious motives.
If Stannis and Jon did manage to tell Robert, I don't think anything would have stopped the King's Landing Lannisters from getting the axe, unless they somehow escaped the city.
Then the question is whether Tywin goes to war. If he did, the whole rest of the seven kingdoms would be against him. With what happened to the Greyjoy's just a few years prior, not a smart idea.
If not for the war of five kings, I'm sure Varys would have cooked up something else to weaken the realm for the Targaryen invasion. I'm guessing he'd have involved house Tyrell in some way such that Lannister didn't stand alone against Baratheon/Stark/Tully/Arryn.
Varys does have clear motives, though: His goal was to destabilize the regime so that the Targaryens would have an opportunity when they return. I recall him saying something to that effect in Storm of Swords, near the end?
Edit: Wait, you mention that. But yeah, I figure it would be a very different ballgame, but there might still be a war.
Of course, technically, it was Cat that started the war by kidnapping Tyrion. Sigh.
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Varys already had the Martells (the no-longer-possible marriage contract between Arianne and Viserys), so the Lannisters wouldn't have been alone against the Targaryens. Add in the Tyrells, and it would have been a North-South classic.
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posted
If I'm remembering Varys properly, his primary motive for supporting the Targaryens was because the Baratheons and Lannisters - those who would actually be doing the ruling, anyway - were all so terrible at ruling, not because of any particular loyalty to House Targaryen. That was the impression of him I got, anyway-his duty was to the realm, and the best bet for a monarch for the realm was Dany Targaryen, eventually. It might've been Ned Stark but he was, well, too unwise to be trusted.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I actually think he would've made a pretty bad king. Littlefinger, for example, told him repeatedly not to trust him and to expect duplicity from him. Varys said many of the same sorts of things. He approached Cersei with straightforward threats. He would've been a bad king.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Ned could have been a fantastic King. But getting to the throne is something he could never have done.
There's no inherent reason a king has to be a duplicitous two-faced master of intrigue. Kings can be honorable and just and stern. But to survive as that type of king they need to have the trust and loyalty of most or all of the military might in the kingdom (not to mention, they would need to actually have an undisputed right to the throne).
So basically yes, Ned could never have taken the throne and kept it in the circumstance he was in. But that's not to say he couldn't, in theory, have made a good king.
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