posted
I actually do wish there was a stronger conservative force here. It seems like most of those who remain either refrain from speaking up, or are on the more extreme end of the spectrum. So what ends up happening is the remaining conservatives who are articulate end up feeling dogpiled. Which isn't a good dynamic.
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Did you just delete a whole thread recently, rivka? I remember - it was you welcoming me and telling me how delightful I am.
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What is wrong with you? I can't remember even discussing anything with you, and you're acting like you have a personal grudge. What happened to you?
Maybe wrapping up and running away with the welcome thread wasn't the most cordial behavior of your own. It certainly makes your condeming me for deleting nasty posts when you deleted a whole nice thread bizarre. What are you thinking?
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Someone pointed out-- was it Squicky? Or Samprimary-- that the long-timers who were abandoning Hatrack were part of the problem, since they were electing not to build the community. I feel like there's some truth to that; but alas!
I wouldn't call them "part of the problem" — it's just consequence. An invariable part of the cycle when a forum is imploding.
And, to be sure, the forum was imploding when I made note of it. It had old, acrimonious, dysfunctional blood (vehements!), really really weird dumb new posters with lightning-rod positions that they would ceaselessly and incoherently argue (slags!) attracted here by OSC's own politically motivated activity, and the forum was totally. not. being. moderated. at. all.
It's not just some unique hatrack thing, neither.
And if this place is getting better as opposed to just stabilizing post-implosion (I think it's getting better, personally) I could explain why in detail. In conclusion: The Book of Mormon is a play, perhaps it is kind of controversial, I am not derailing at all.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aerin: your condeming me for deleting nasty posts
I did no such thing. I merely stated that it was clear who had deleted the posts. If you read condemnation into that, that's your problem.
Similarly, I bear you no grudge. I'm fairly sick of your exceedingly anti-social behavior on Hatrack, but I don't take it personally or anything. So if you think there's a grudge between us, you might check its directionality.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:I find it less of a haven for social conservatives but, perhaps because of that, more welcoming than it was when I first posted here.
It's likely that people feel more welcome when their beliefs generally match the beliefs of the community in which they find themselves.
I don't remember Hatrack ever being a "haven" for social conservatives; I do remember a time when I felt that religion was a safe topic to talk about, and that rather than having to be silent in order to keep the peace, I could be honest about my beliefs, and have an expectation of honest, non-vitriolic discussion.
People found faith here; people lost faith here. I think we saw equal amounts of both. But I feel like it was all done mostly with civility.
The community is what it is. Nothing is more likely than that I'm a geezer with faulty memories and a yearning to be back in the in-crowd.
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posted
I barely even think of you, much less dislike you, and I was happy to read the welcome thread. The unceromonious deletion, however, was a little off-putting, and this behavior now is completely bizarre. Are you looking to make me not like you? It might work.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:I find it less of a haven for social conservatives but, perhaps because of that, more welcoming than it was when I first posted here.
It's likely that people feel more welcome when their beliefs generally match the beliefs of the community in which they find themselves.
I don't remember Hatrack ever being a "haven" for social conservatives; I do remember a time when I felt that religion was a safe topic to talk about, and that rather than having to be silent in order to keep the peace, I could be honest about my beliefs, and have an expectation of honest, non-vitriolic discussion.
People found faith here; people lost faith here. I think we saw equal amounts of both. But I feel like it was all done mostly with civility.
The community is what it is. Nothing is more likely than that I'm a geezer with faulty memories and a yearning to be back in the in-crowd.
Whereas, I was told that, among other things, that only LDS were welcome to discuss those things and my heathenish, slutty* viewpoint was unwelcome. It was very hostile. I suppose a balance is difficult to find. I don't think that religious people need to keep quiet to keep the peace (I certainly don't) but I do think it fair to challenge and be challenged on those beliefs.
*Not in exactly those words, but close.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:and this behavior now is completely bizarre.
- rivka neutrally points out a pattern involved
- you perceive and accuse rivka of something rivka did not do, and turn it, in your own head, into a grudge
- noting fairly straightforwardly that the perceived grudge does not exist and the condemnation you rushed headlong into making is not valid is not 'completely bizarre.' It is actually a pretty rational, mature, and appropriate response to such an accusation
- especially if this is all happening pretty much at the drop of a hat, and now you're going to use THIS as an excuse to not like rivka, well, it speaks to the standard by which you decide someone has deserved your contempt.
Like others, I legitimately wish you could see what you're doing.
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quote:Whereas, I was told that, among other things, that only LDS were welcome to discuss those things and my heathenish, slutty* viewpoint was unwelcome. It was very hostile.
I don't remember that.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Whereas, I was told that, among other things, that only LDS were welcome to discuss those things and my heathenish, slutty* viewpoint was unwelcome. It was very hostile.
I don't remember that.
...probably because I wasn't around then. I keep forgetting you're "older" than your member name.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Whereas, I was told that, among other things, that only LDS were welcome to discuss those things and my heathenish, slutty* viewpoint was unwelcome. It was very hostile.
I don't remember that.
Maybe because it was only an occasional thing. Uh, pun intended?
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posted
I don't remember you being around then. It was a long time ago. 1997 - 1999, I think. I remember, Grayson and Karl, Rodney, Morgan Majors, and John Hansen...
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aerin: Samp, butt out. Your biased dogpiling is both unwelcome and stupid.
I'll let you know when you've made a credible point regarding whether or not I should openly respond to you being an unreasonably hostile, hypocritically injurious poster. Until then — and at least until I can be convinced that my behavior is less welcome — you will just have to accept my 'unwelcome' behavior just as readily as we end up having to welcome yours.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I don't remember you being around then. It was a long time ago. 1997 - 1999, I think. I remember, Grayson and Karl, Rodney, Morgan Majors, and John Hansen...
Yeah, I wasn't-- I didn't go on the BFFC forums until 1999, right after the migration from Big Mouth Lion (maybe a bit before).
It's funny: check out Samp's link upthread for an almost exact reenactment of this thread. Some good discussion in the initial pages of that thread.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Aerin: You firmly reaffirm my opinion of Hatrack and the people who have come to populate it.
I don't know how many times you want to hinge on this point.
(It's pretty obvious that you will eventually think this way of pretty much any online community which does not just provide for your double standard — i.e. weather your confrontational outbursts without appropriately confronting your behavior in return, so)
(I am feeding the bears)
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Kat: You don't have to be this angry. You're losing your presence of mind, and it's so unpleasant to see, not to mentino miserable for you. There are several posters all saying similar things to you, and while you might feel they all have axes to grind, that doesn't mean you have to lose your cool.
There are plenty of people here who don't dislike you, but you need to lower your shields as it were, and perhaps not feel like a wounded animal so much. This thread could use a general cooling of passions.
-----
I will note though for others that if a poster has indicated they have no intention of listening to you, it might be prudent to not continue to address them, their responding to you makes them dishonest, you trying to get them to respond to you on Hatrack is rude to put it lightly.
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: It's funny: check out Samp's link upthread for an almost exact reenactment of this thread. Some good discussion in the initial pages of that thread.
I was excited to hear they were making a remake of the original, but then I heard I was going to be played by Elliott Gould, and, ehh
quote:I will note though for others that if a poster has indicated they have no intention of listening to you, it might be prudent to not continue to address them, their responding to you makes them dishonest, you trying to get them to respond to you on Hatrack is rude to put it lightly.
Hold on.
When I read this, it sounds poorly reasoned. If a poster notifies me "I am so not listening to you!" it doesn't make it so that if they subsequently start berating us/our posts/the community, that ANY responding to this behavior is 'rude to put it lightly.'
If this were true, I could just say "I am not listening to any of you. At all. I completely disregard your opinions." then sit here and just berate people or their opinions openly and now they're just supposed to not respond to me? Or they're rude? In my opinion, a great way to empower the abusers to have a shield of eggshells around them.
posted
Samprimary: I'm was not addressing whether or not a poster continues to make comments towards those they have said they are not listening to.
Obviously if that is the case it's a different situation.
Also, if they are going on to be a bad element in the community that necessitates action on someone's part, though it should not necessarily be *you* if they have indicated they won't listen to you.
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Seriously, I think it's a lost cause. As long as there are people like Samp, it doesn't matter about the silent majority.
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Seriously, I think it's a lost cause. As long as there are people like Samp, it doesn't matter about the silent majority.
Kat: The fact I moderate this forum pretty clearly indicates that I don't agree with you. Samp is actually an extremely valuable poster in many respects.
Sure he grates at times, I've come to learn even I do that and I used to think I was good at avoiding conflict. You might not want to listen to him, and you don't have to, but you'd do well to read what he is saying right now and pretend it's not him saying it.
This place is not prohibitive of interesting discourse. Has it had problems? Yes absolutely. Does it have problems? Yes absolutely. Will it recover? I'm not sure, I'm trying to see to it that happens. You can help.
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quote:Originally posted by Aerin: You firmly reaffirm my opinion of Hatrack and the people who have come to populate it.
Then why are you still participating? I don't mean to suggest that I want you to leave - you are an interesting person who often has a great perspective to bring to conversations - but you seem extremely unhappy right now, so what is your purpose in continuing to escalate this unfortunate discussion?
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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1) It isn't all dross. There's some gold, sometimes. Not on the past couple of pages, granted, but sometimes; 2) I don't know if you saw the list of Hatrackers, but the part about bored underachievers included me. Not in Real Life, of course, but for all this writing and wordplay, there are other things I could do with it, so why not? See above. (I guess that's not really an answer.) 3) Some of it is seriously MEANT to be distancing and offputting. There's an ingratiating, entitled assumption of familiarity here sometimes that I find tremendously invasive and creepy, and I'm not being insulting when I say I'd rather some people stay far away and quit thinking I want a personal conversation. I seriously just want an impersonal, topical discussion, but if you're <irony alerty> lovely and vivacious and clever and vocal like me</irony alert>, then you have to DEAL with those assumptions of familiarity and I HATE that. I HAVE friends, I have a boyfriend, I have close family, and I have all sorts of spiritual and health advisors on tap if I need that. I would PREFER to be the prickly, cold-hearted bitch if it would JUST keep socially-insensitive, pornographyYay!, Internet strangers AWAY from me. This "I see into your soul and truly understand you" is CREEPY.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Kat: I see, well that certainly explains a lot.
If you want things to remain impersonal, that's fine, I respect that. I can't give much advice as to how to accomplish that as I don't know what it's like to want to converse with people but keep all of my personal details hidden. Over time they spill out for me. I have tons of friends in real life, a group of them come from forums, I know what it's like to have so many friends there isn't time enough maintain them all equally, but I've never experienced a total filling of that niche. I'm always in the friend market as it were.
I at least understand now why you find it so provoking when people try to analyze you or ask you to volunteer information. That will be very useful information when we converse in the future.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Interesting. You have some fundamentally different expectations and preferences compared to other active posters and this explanation does illuminate why some previous interactions have headed south.
Many people do enjoy personal conversation online. Whether this represents a minor pathology or not can be a determination left to the reader, but it seems doubtful that you can change either their behavior or your expectations so perhaps when one of your boundaries is approached you should just quietly depart from the line of discussion that is heading there. Easier said than done, of course, but that's been my strategy on the occasion where I don't want to go "there."
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Hmmm, the creepy comment has me ruminating. I have read Hatrack for around 10 years and it has had a profound affect on shaping my critical thinking skills, my understanding of other perspectives, and my personal opinion on numerous topics. And yet, I really don't post much or feel the need to post much. There's people here, including kat, who I do feel I "know" on some level because over the years, they've volunteered a wealth of information about themselves and their thought processes. If you took any of the prominent posters' posts and compiled them, they would likely be multiple volumes of lengthy books.
I don't know that a poster can write that much about their own opinions and perspectives without the people who read it starting to feel some type of knowledge about that person. Sure it's just an aspect of who they are, not a complete picture. But I think it's a very real aspect- I know Mary or Porter said once that Hatrack enhanced their marriage by allowing them to see different sides of each other.
So while more lurkish people like me are likely creepy, because we read but don't reciprocate in the sharing, I think a certain amount of familiarity after years and years of fairly personal sharing is not assumptive. I'm not trying to inflame anything or accuse anyone. I just thought I'd offer my perspective on why I think that is a fairly natural thing to develop.
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posted
I would like to note that there is a difference between a relative stranger (someone who posts on the same internet discussion board, for instance) displaying an ingratiating, entitled assumption of familiarity vs when a person accuses another person/group of people of specific wrong doing publicly and then refuses to explain even basic details when other people wonder about the circumstance.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: If you took any of the prominent posters' posts and compiled them, they would likely be multiple volumes of lengthy books.
>_<
Thanks. I now have an image of all my Hatrack posts taking up a shelf of my bookcase.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
The personal boundaries issues explains a lot for me. Different people (and different communities) have different norms about what's polite. I have my own frustrations with society having a lot of norms that I wish were different.
I think it's important to understand the rules you're dealing with and work within them. I also think it's important not to compromise your own values too much. And the world would be a better place if we tried to me more accommodating of each other's preferences.
I don't think that excuses all of kat's behavior. I think you can say "I prefer not to have this type of discussion" without insulting a person. And there are types of conversations (such as, say, what counts as disrespect) that are inherently personal, or at least I'm not capable of discussing them without getting more personal that kat would prefer.
But I'll make an effort to respect that preference in the future.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
I'm glad I was away for a few hours while this whole drama played out. It's difficult to make sense of it, now that so many of the crucial posts have been deleted, but:
1) I recall a few separate instances in which someone urged suicide upon someone else, all of which happened during the Great Immoderation. To my knowledge, none of the posters in question are still here, and all but one of them actually wound up being actively banned at least once.
2) Kat and rivka should not be enemies. That is not how the universe works, and it is dumb. Please stop being dumb, universe people.
3) Kat, honestly, I do not believe that you are consciously brittle and bitchy as part of an active strategy to force unreal Internet-only people to hold you at arm's length; I worry that this is a justification that you will seize upon and use in the future to justify this behavior to yourself, because it's certainly more plausible than many more alternatives I've heard in the past. That said, I certainly owe it to you to take that claim at face value. I would point out that we have other posters on Hatrack -- Scott R springs to mind -- who have long espoused a similar "arm's length" approach, but who over time have become gradually more willing to engage with us in MeatSpace; there are others -- I think Ralphie is the classic example here -- who became so involved with the forums that they felt the need to completely disassociate to protect their real lives (but without blaming the forum for that desire.) If you truly believe you need your space, I think that's a fine and respectable position and wholeheartedly support your attempt to stake out any territory that you think is best for your own mental health -- but I like a lot of people on here, and it pains me to see them slandered as a potential by-product of that process.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I've posted here on and off through the ages and I've always felt that people were respectful, kind, and intelligent. I post a lot on Top-Law-Schools.com (TLS) and people on Hatrack are angels compared to them, but then it is a forum board for future lawyers.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:who have long espoused a similar "arm's length" approach, but who over time have become gradually more willing to engage with us in MeatSpace;
While I'm not completely confident of this interpretation, I don't think the issue was MeatSpace, it was more about sharing personal information in general (with random internet denizens as well as random meetspace folks you might come across). I recall a post a while ago where I talked about the way I introduced myself to random strangers, which kat criticized. There was no previous drama in that thread, so I'd take that at face value.
Fake Edit: Mispelled Meatspace, but I think my new way is better.
[ August 05, 2011, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Arnold ]
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: the Great Immoderation.
Lol.
quote: I post a lot on Top-Law-Schools.com (TLS) and people on Hatrack are angels compared to them, but then it is a forum board for future lawyers.
I just get this vision of a forum comprised mostly of neophyte aspiring law school students. 'moreover, you suck, ergo heretofore concordantly, you are a butt, qed'
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: 2) Kat and rivka should not be enemies. That is not how the universe works, and it is dumb. Please stop being dumb, universe people.
If it helps, Tom, I don't consider Katie an enemy. I don't dislike her; I do dislike a lot of her behavior on Hatrack. (I have every reason to believe that her behavior IRL is very different.)
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
kat, your last post makes me sad. I think what made the Hatrack I joined so special to me is that we WERE friends. People had personal conversations, got to know each other, cared about each other and like each other enough to meet up in person. I'm glad that you have real life friends and are happy with your life, and I know that this place has changed and people have moved on and it's not the same community, and neither is anywhere else. But the fact remains that I will only ever be friends with you on line, and if you're not being friends with people online anymore that means we'll never be friends again.
I do think I understand where you're coming from -- there have certainly been times when people crossed my boundaries here, probably unintentionally but who knows. And I'm glad you said it again, because if you have before I've missed it, and it does make some of your posts make more sense. I don't think it's going to be a particularly effective strategy, but that's not my business, so whatever.
But my reaction when I got to the "I have a boyfriend" part of your post was, since it was news to me, to get happy and excited for you and want to ask you about it. How long you've been seeing each other, how you met, etc. But you don't want that here anymore, which I respect, and I'm not going to join livejournal just to stalk you, if you still even update there.
So I guess I'll just say I'm happy for you and I wish you well. And go back to lurking. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Aerin: Some of it is seriously MEANT to be distancing and offputting. There's an ingratiating, entitled assumption of familiarity here sometimes that I find tremendously invasive and creepy, and I'm not being insulting when I say I'd rather some people stay far away and quit thinking I want a personal conversation.
I admit that when I can attach a face to a name, I tend to view further interaction on a slightly more personal level. I can't speak for anyone else, but in case you hadn't thought about it yourself, I do want to make mention that your having posted a link to your picture in a different thread may have the unintentional consequence of people viewing their conversations with you on a level more personal than you are comfortable with.
Posts: 161 | Registered: Aug 2010
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: the Great Immoderation.
Lol.
quote: I post a lot on Top-Law-Schools.com (TLS) and people on Hatrack are angels compared to them, but then it is a forum board for future lawyers.
I just get this vision of a forum comprised mostly of neophyte aspiring law school students. 'moreover, you suck, ergo heretofore concordantly, you are a butt, qed'
The language is not quite that flowery, but it does get terrible. There are various factions of "douchery," but pretty much most of the regular posters don't consider you a viable breathing human being if you didn't score in the top 10% on the LSAT. Then there are people who don't think you're a really lawyer unless you went to HYS ( Harvard, Yale, Stanford). Great people : )
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I remember Hatrack being a more thoughtful, civil place as well. At the same time, I remember many times over the years being so upset about something or other at Hatrack that I would carry the cloud with me back into Real Life--until I realized what was happening and could dismiss it. I do think a lot of the pillars of the Hatrack community have long since left, or don't put much energy into the place anymore. That's very sad to me. However, it's not yet a ghost town. Hatrack still has plenty of potential. I love this place. I've always been a wallflower here, but I prefer riding the pine at Hatrack to doing the same most other places. Long live this beautiful board.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
What an amazing thread. I think historians in a thousand years' time ought to read this, and figure out what it says about... something or other. Our time, maybe, or social dynamics, or something.
Hatrack is indeed a unique place in my experience. I probably got more enjoyment from it than hurt, through the years. But things change and life moves on. I spend much more time on the nacle now, which though less personal is more civil. Being part of groups is fun. And being able to get away from those groups when they turn ugly, upon occasion, is also nice.
Groups can become toxic, too, at times, and in some circumstances. It's a good thing for each of us to assess when that's happening and separate ourselves from bad situations. Life is too short. And individuals only have limited power to change group dynamics. Sometimes the best path is simply to walk a different way.
Maybe at times too much talk can be improved by a bit more action. I loved the holiday charity gifts, the cookie chains (even though they always were shortlived) and other group actions that changed the world, even in tiny ways, for the better.
I want to build in more service in my life, to do more for others. I want to accomplish more before I die. I want to feel that nourishing joy of actually making a positive difference with my time. The life of the mind is wonderful. I love the thought, the learning, and the struggle to express my ideas that I experienced here. But it's amazing how good things can tip over into the negative. As I get older I hope I'm learning to identify when that's happening and disengage. I hope I'm learning a better balance between learning, thinking, expressing, and planning, doing, creating. I hope to catch the trick of hanging at the sweet spot, being more open but less ouchy, finding the right wavelength to surf so as to affect the world in maximally positive ways, to change myself in positive ways, and cut out the waste, the damage, reprogram the anger, the annoyance, the grumpiness into more joy.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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