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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Book of Mormon (Page 11)

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Author Topic: Book of Mormon
Stone_Wolf_
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Perhaps your fresh perspective could bring better understanding, Tom. Why is it you feel BF is correct?
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Raymond Arnold
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I think (and suspect this is what Tom means) that even though BlackFox's definition is arbitrary, it SHOULD be the mark of a respectful person to consider whether someone feels respected or not. If you frequently find that your "respectful" attitude is making people upset, you should reconsider the behaviors you consider respectful.

Consider being a good person, in general. It's not just the intent. If you consistently try to be good in a way that ends up hurting people, then eventually your intent stops counting for as much. True "Goodness," as well as "Respect," require more than just intent.

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shadowland
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
Consider being a good person, in general. It's not just the intent. If you consistently try to be good in a way that ends up hurting people, then eventually your intent stops counting for as much. True "Goodness," as well as "Respect," require more than just intent.

Well, yeah. <edit> That is, you should try to be respectful based on the audience's concept of respect rather than merely your own definition.</edit>

At least my specific point was in highlighting the other side of that, namely, that intent does play a role in determining whether you feel disrespected or not, or at least your perception of their intent plays a role.

I think the difficult part in all of this is trying to understand the other person's perception, which involves not only your perception of the other person's intent, but also trying to understand their perception of you and your behavior. There's plenty of room for misunderstanding in all of this. Therefore, I don't see what benefit there is in ever feeling disrespected when the intent is unknown.

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by shadowland:
Well, yeah. I'm not sure that anyone was specifically arguing against that point.

At least my specific point was in highlighting the other side of that, namely, that intent does play a role in determining whether you feel disrespected or not...

+1
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Why is it you feel BF is correct?
Because, as he pointed out, you can in fact disrespect someone accidentally, through ignorance or through their own determination to be disrespected. Avoiding the appearance of disrespect, then, is something to be done when possible, but it should be acknowledged that it is not always possible, and is certainly not the end goal of any social interaction.

90% of social interaction involves coming up with supposed motives for other people, and about 90% of being a good person requires that the motives you invent err on the side of charity. I know there are people who disagree with me on this, but they're wrong -- although I suppose I can be a bit flexible regarding the percentages I just made up. [Smile]

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Stone_Wolf_
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You lost me.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
You'll meet some. Maybe one a year.

No. Not unless you live in a cave.

quote:
If you meet a LOT, though, if you are continually amazed at how many over-sensitive people you find, if you can't believe just how unbelievably brittle and easily offended the world has gotten, if you start think every member of a certain group is crazy snippy and has a problem, then it isn't them: it's you.
Thankfully, then, if this is an intent at remote analysis, none of it applies to me. Many individuals of certain groups can be offended by stupid things, though. I watched a whole cadre of anti-vac activists be deeply offended over the mention by one mother that she had taken her baby out for vaccinations that day. They were all snippy about it. Them being near universal in their actions didn't mean they could say "it's you" to the mother.

quote:
If it is more than, say, one person a year, then "other people" are not the problem. So if two or more people are telling you at the same time you're being disrespectful, it takes...serious contempt and disrespect to imagine they are all wrong and only you know the truth.
There have been scores of separate instances here where I have watched many, many more than two people here trying to tell you that you were being incredibly disrespectful, in instances were you were being very straightforwardly hostile. Are you admitting contempt and disrespect on the part of your own actions and tendencies, or how do you explain this? Are you different?
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Mucus
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Clearly, you don't appreciate the "true respect" that is being demonstrated by people that are advocating "true respect."
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Stone_Wolf_
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Mucus...I searched for the phrase "true respect" and had to go back two pages to a post by Occasional to find it...is that who you are directing your post at? And if not, who?
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Raymond Arnold
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There's at least one layer of sarcasm there, so I'm not sure if it matters who he's directing the post at.
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Raymond Arnold
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So, it's okay to be a jerk on the internet?
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Raymond Arnold
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I'd take Hatrack over plenty of real life places I know. People here are articulate, funny, discuss interesting ideas, and compared to many other places, are respectful.

For comparison, a place I used to work at was predominantly atheist and (nominally) liberal. Common political discussion consists of such nuanced commentary as "Man, republicans are retarded." A lot of the running dialogue in the office is "ironic" racist and sexist jokes. Attempts to resolve arguments by *actually looking up the answer* were often met with scorn.

I have no problem being told, in the course of a religious discussion, that I can't be moral without Christian values. I have no problem with people thinking an idea I believe in is ridiculous, so long as they express that thought in a way that shows they respect me as a human being.

I agree that on the internet, you have to be prepared to deal with a wide array of people which includes some people who are willing to be obnoxious because they are shielded by anonymity. I do not think that makes being a jerk on the internet okay.

What I really don't understand is, if you think Hatrack is such a cesspool, what are you still *doing* here?

[ August 05, 2011, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Raymond Arnold ]

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kmbboots
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People have told me that you are not nearly as toxic in person as you are online.
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Raymond Arnold
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On a pretty regular basis, myself and others have felt insulted by you. Do you not think you have insulted us, or that it is okay to have insulted us because other people are being insulting?
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shadowland
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quote:
Are you asking me that question? Seriously? HERE? In THIS PLACE?
So is that a yes?

quote:
Oh my stars, my real life is much, much better than Hatrack as it is now.
Congratulations.

quote:
Since I can't imagine that behavior is normal in their real life . . . then clearly this isn't real life for you either.
FWIW, Hatrack is most definitely a part of real life for me.
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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
Seriously - ENCOURAGED TO COMMIT SUICIDE.

Who did that? Was it said in seriousness? Did the community not come down on them? If not, that's bizarre.
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Raymond Arnold
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While I can imagine such a thing happening on hatrack, you have a habit of grossly mischaracterizing things, and I'd like to see the context.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Kat, I'm glad you have a positive real life, many of us here do, and still enjoy the 'Rack.

Would you please try and be mindful that we posters determine with each post if this is a positive place or a negative one, and we need your help! Please put forth extra effort to be kind and friendly here and the rewards will not be limited to this place, but you will benefit by them directly as well!

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Stone_Wolf_
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I'm tempted to waste my time and energy trying to get you to understand that your negative behavior is the cause of the strife you are reeling against, but if you stay consistent, you will simply assign me a negative agenda, ulterior motives, say I'm dishonest and then, declare what I really think.

You win kat! You win. You are so unpleasant to deal with, so assumptive and unable to apply any of your own ample criticism to your self that I just don't want to deal with you anymore.

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kmbboots
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Okay. Maybe we should just take some time away from trying to "fix" kat. Getting piled on like this can't be pleasant and isn't likely to be productive.
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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
Only if this is real life. If it isn't - and it isn't - then encouraging someone to committ suicide or condemning them for not allowing themselves to be raped is totally awesome and hilarious.

That really isn't the standard that is generally applied here, kat. I'm not here as much as I once was, of course, and I don't read every post of every thread the way I once did, but I still feel confident in saying that neither of those things are par for the course here. I really am curious as to who said it, what the context was, and whether they were taken to task for it by the community.
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Javert
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
I'm completely satisfied in my assessment of the community, and the present treatment only reinforces that my original assessment is correct.

Then why post about it, if you're not looking for either discussion or validation?
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Rakeesh
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I can't help but wonder: is this a game? Are you trolling, Katharina? I'm asking because your words are so consistently-almost constantly, now-at such odds with your tone and the overall ideas you're expressing, that it's just *strange* to read you now, so often lecturing and criticizing on what an awful place this is and how mean and nasty its inhabitants are, and how poorly their behavior reflects on them...and doing so in a way that, sometimes within the same thread and even post, is exactly what you're criticizing.
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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
Fabulous. I'm thrilled about not only being on the receiving end of those things, but at being called a delusional liar when I report that it happened.

Hmmmm....does this sound like anything else to anyone else?

Kat, are you addressing me with this? If so, I think that you're being unfair, and honestly I feel hurt. I wasn't calling you anything, and I don't think that a fair reading of my question could lead you to think that I was. I was asking for clarification because what you were talking about seemed utterly bizarre, and out of keeping with what I see of the forum, not because I thought you were lying.
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Javert
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
"This happened."

"Prove it."

No. Bite me.

Really? So in any situation, being asked to back up what you say with actual evidence is deserving of instant refusal and insults?
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Rakeesh
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That's not what he said, either in content or in tone. You're lying. I don't know if it's intentional, or if it's because you feel hurt, or if it's because Hatrack, being filled with nasty, smug hypocrites deserves nasty, smug behavior from you.

But whether it's intended or not, you're lying, and lying in a very strange, aggressive way. It's pretty unsettling, to the point that having said this, I'm just not going to post about this anymore. People who know my 'style' around here know that's unusual, but frankly I think it's something we should all do, those who haven't already. Regardless of whatever provocation is offered.

Katharina, I'm not sure what exactly happened to so thoroughly turn you on this group and the people in it. I'm sorry for whatever it was. But you're behaving in a savage, hateful way now. It's pretty clear that posting about it doesn't make you feel better, but I do-believe it or not-hope that something will.

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Jake
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"This happened"

"Man, that's weird! Tell me more."


I don't think there's any way to convince you of this, but the above really was my intent. I retract the question, though, and won't be interacting with you further.

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Raymond Arnold
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
You'll meet some. Maybe one a year.
So if two or more people are telling you at the same time you're being disrespectful, it takes...serious contempt and disrespect to imagine they are all wrong and only you know the truth.


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Aerin
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Jake, I'm sorry if your question wasn't intended that way.

[ August 05, 2011, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Aerin ]

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Javert
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
If the goal is to prove otherwise, retire from the field and maybe consult a book or two on different tactics.

The goal is trying to understand why you're somewhat constantly so unpleasant to almost everyone with very little reason. When asked to explain said reason, you respond with insults.

As I doubt I'll be getting a different response, I'll do what you suggest:

I see you coming down the sidewalk, and I'm crossing to the other side of the street.

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Raymond Arnold
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quote:
Fabulous. I'm thrilled about not only being on the receiving end of those things, but at being called a delusional liar when I report that it happened.
Ironically, what I actually said was:

quote:
you have a habit of grossly mischaracterizing things
Such as, say, saying that somebody called you a delusional liar, when in fact they said no such thing.
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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
Jake, I'm sorry if your question wasn't intended that way. There was an almost identical question above it that definitely seemd intended that way, and yours seemed like a continuation of it.

I appreciate the apology.
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JanitorBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
Are you asking me that question? Seriously? HERE? In THIS PLACE? Where people encourage suicide and Tom calls theists deluded drug addicts?

Heaven help us all if this were real life. Thankfully, however, it isn't. Not even remotely. For which you should clearly be incredible thankful.

I would appreciate some sort of indication where a poster has encouraged another poster to commit suicide and nothing was done. As for Tom comparing theists to deluded drug addicts, that conversation is still happening, and it does not strike me as him being dismissive of anybody. Perhaps if somebody responded to him and he said something like, "Whatever, I'm not listening to you, you're a delusional theist." I might do something then.

Currently whenever you seem to get into discussions with Rabbit or Tom you get incredibly frustrated and angry. I don't see why that inevitably has to be.

I'm doing everything I can to manage this place, and believe me the biggest perk of this job is not hearing people, such as yourself tell me what a terrible place it is here.

I pay attention, I listen seriously when posters talk to me about what is concerning them, but explosive emotional outbursts don't solve anything here.

I'm glad you find RL so gratifying, I do too. I'm sorry Hatrack is not providing you with whatever it provided you with in the past, I'm earnestly doing what I can as a moderator to bring that to pass. But it's delusional to believe that if I was just perfect as a moderator it would all work out. There is a certain element to a healthy forum that has to come from the posters, where posters talk openly and honestly to each other.

I can't stop people from reading into each other's posts, anymore than I can stop a zebra from seeing what looks like a lion moving through the grass and braying to the rest of the heard to run. All I can do is stop lions when they come out of the grass.

Unfortunately there is so much history and bad blood between you and several posters katharina it's an almost impossible task to let that all go. I'm not saying who is at fault, all I can say is that some amount of long suffering and general amiability would serve you well. If that doesn't feel like a proper fit, very well, you have every right to express yourself as you choose, so does everybody else.

If you can't find a way to make it work with every other poster, either by ignoring the ones you can't be trusted to respond positively to, or by finding a way to not get your feathers ruffled, then perhaps Hatrack isn't the best place for you to spend your time.

I for one like you, I think you bring many great things to the table, you're smart, honest, steadfast in your beliefs, and even kind. That's the better part of you.

I'm sorry you feel dog-piled, but you are bringing serious accusations to the table, and telling everybody else you have no intention of backing them up even when honest people are genuinely shocked to hear you feel that way. It's not fair to make accusations you will not/cannot discuss specifically. It's better you simply not make them otherwise how can those discussing with you even deal with them? If we are going to talk about the existence of God for example and I say to Javert, "I know he exists, he visited me once in person, we had a conversation, but I'm not going to discuss it further sorry." It puts him at an improper disadvantage.

Anyway, I'm rambling. If you wish to discuss this further you have my email, though I would appreciate it if you would provide some means for me to respond, that isn't here on the boards.

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Raymond Arnold
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My behavior, such as saying you mischaracterize things, which you immediately distorted into "calling you a delusional liar?"

If you consider that an acceptable way to rephrase what I said, then no, you do not get to be taken at face value when you say that somebody told somebody else to commit suicide.

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Scott R
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I don't ever think I've seen you curse before, Aerin.

**

It's a sign of how long I've been away from Hatrack that I can't think of anything flippant to say.

I think I'm the worse for that change.

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Aerin
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*shrug* I really don't feel like reliving the circumstances. Especially not in this horrible, horrible thread where people respond a report of being hurt with accusations of dishonesty and demand that I put myself up for judgment. It is simply not going to happen. If you don't understand why, then I suggest a book or two on psychology.

JBlade: I'll go back to ignoring the trolls and remembering that it isn't worth my time to share anything, because any little bit only leads to demands for more until someone finds something with which they can attack me.

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Stone_Wolf_
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So, how 'bout that Book of Mormon? I hear there are some good musical numbers, eh?
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
Javert and Rakeesh, go to hell. That now makes an unbelievable amount of people ganging up on me, and considering the offense is umbrage at my contention that Hatrack is a nasty, uncivil place filled with ill-informed, entitled jerks I would cross the street to avoid in real life, the present circumstances are only reinforcing my assessment.

Do you not think that you are, right now, being the most nasty and uncivil person in this discussion? Going out of your way, in fact, to pointlessly express your condescension towards others?

Do you remember how this relates to my point about what you said?

You literally said "if two or more people are telling you at the same time you're being disrespectful, it takes...serious contempt and disrespect to imagine they are all wrong and only you know the truth."

You then become incredibly hostile and end up with those Two Or More people telling you at the same time that you're being disrespectful.

And you are.

Do you see the lesson you unintentionally give us about yourself when you either disconnect from the previous statements so boldly (the whole 'do as I say, not as I do') or come up with excuses and pretty much hateful dismissals of a group which is, pretty clearly, acting better than you?

It's a serious question. It's not 'ganging up.' It's trying to point out that you have no perspective on the hypocrisy of your actions, and that you need to regain it somehow.

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Mucus
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For our next act, I think we'll have a Hindu demonstrate how eating beef insults Hindus by walking a horse and two cats into a Burger King, butchering them, and feasting on the bloody remains.

That'll show them beefeaters.

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JanitorBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:

JBlade: I'll go back to ignoring the trolls and remembering that it isn't worth my time to share anything, because any little bit only leads to demands for more until someone finds something with which they can attack me.

If that's how you feel it has to be, that is in fact how it has to be. I believe you can do better, but I'm not demanding that from you.

I'm willing to assume you are telling the truth Kat, you don't strike me as somebody who invents falsehoods. But I have absolutely no recollection of seeing a poster encourage another to commit suicide, and doing nothing about it. You have indicated you don't wish to relive it, and I can respect that, if you can, I'd appreciate at least a finger pointing in the right direction.

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Aerin
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JBlade, it wasn't on your watch.
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Scott R
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
So, how 'bout that Book of Mormon? I hear there are some good musical numbers, eh?

Along the same lines as the Book of Mormon musical, is the production of 'Mothers, Monsters, and Mormons.'

Not a complete tangent, but I've got a story coming out in an anthology later this year by the same title-- without the mothers.

I mean, there may be mothers in the anthology. But there are no mothers in the title. But there are LOTS of monsters in the anthology, and lots of Mormons too. That much is certain.

One of the monsters is a werewolf. A Mormon werewolf. He's a he, so he's not a mother. He might be a muthah...I suppose someone somewhere might call him that. I personally don't think the label applies.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
Samp, you are an idiot.

You don't even see the hypocrisy in saying something like this while looking down your nose and going out of your way to vent your hatred openly on others and judging the forums for being such a hateful place.
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Aerin
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Way to prove me wrong about the quality and habits of Hatrackers there, Samp.
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Stone_Wolf_
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A Mormon werewolf...that sounds like the set up to an offensive Halloween joke.

A Catholic vampire, a Jewish mummy and a Mormon werewolf walk into a bar...

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
For our next act, I think we'll have a Hindu demonstrate how eating beef insults Hindus by walking a horse and two cats into a Burger King, butchering them, and feasting on the bloody remains.

That'll show them beefeaters.

I don't recall a Burger King at the Tower.
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CT
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I am both eeriely attracted to and repelled by the Burger King character in commercials.

---

Added:He kind of reminds me of one of my current cats. I am fascinated by him and extremely close to him, and yet I keep expecting him to claw my face. But he never does. He never acts out at all. It's just ... he really, really should. When is he going to go psycho on me? Gah!

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by CT:
I am both eeriely attracted to and repelled by the Burger King character in commercials.

Right...he's so creepy, the kind of creepy you want to hang out with at a pool hall for about an hour.
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CT
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Yeah!
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Stone_Wolf_
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And then talk about with your friends for the rest of your lives...

"Remember that guy we met at "Sticks"...yea, he always smiled and had a pointy beard and wore a crown...his face never moved...."

"Oh yea, how could I forget, he was wearing a cape for heaven's sake...a cape!"

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