posted
Hanging upside down from a pipe, you sneak up behind a security guard and...tense moment...stuff a char grilled hamburger in his mouth!
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Yeah. Uhm. What the most ironic part of this outburst is that hatrack is less dysfunctional and mean than it has been since at least when I was invited to post.
Please just report when someone gets clearly out of line. Don't try to fix the damaged goods. Its obviously not a obligation of the community and after a while it is obviously noooooot going to do any good.
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote: What the most ironic part of this outburst is that hatrack is less dysfunctional and mean than it has been since at least when I was invited to post.
I know that I feel like it's less welcoming than it has been in the past. That's one of the reasons I've been scarce.
Someone pointed out-- was it Squicky? Or Samprimary-- that the long-timers who were abandoning Hatrack were part of the problem, since they were electing not to build the community. I feel like there's some truth to that; but alas!
I'm less interested in the fight against trolls/poor forum etiquette these days. Other communities provide what I feel I obtained from Hatrack back then, so my inclination to get riled up here is slackened.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I wonder if JB deleted nearly all of kat's posts, or was it kat herself?
I think the answer to that question is quite obvious if you look at the two individuals' past behavior.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: What the most ironic part of this outburst is that hatrack is less dysfunctional and mean than it has been since at least when I was invited to post.
I know that I feel like it's less welcoming than it has been in the past. That's one of the reasons I've been scarce.
Someone pointed out-- was it Squicky? Or Samprimary-- that the long-timers who were abandoning Hatrack were part of the problem, since they were electing not to build the community. I feel like there's some truth to that; but alas!
I'm less interested in the fight against trolls/poor forum etiquette these days. Other communities provide what I feel I obtained from Hatrack back then, so my inclination to get riled up here is slackened.
I find it less of a haven for social conservatives but, perhaps because of that, more welcoming than it was when I first posted here.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I actually do wish there was a stronger conservative force here. It seems like most of those who remain either refrain from speaking up, or are on the more extreme end of the spectrum. So what ends up happening is the remaining conservatives who are articulate end up feeling dogpiled. Which isn't a good dynamic.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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Did you just delete a whole thread recently, rivka? I remember - it was you welcoming me and telling me how delightful I am.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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What is wrong with you? I can't remember even discussing anything with you, and you're acting like you have a personal grudge. What happened to you?
Maybe wrapping up and running away with the welcome thread wasn't the most cordial behavior of your own. It certainly makes your condeming me for deleting nasty posts when you deleted a whole nice thread bizarre. What are you thinking?
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Someone pointed out-- was it Squicky? Or Samprimary-- that the long-timers who were abandoning Hatrack were part of the problem, since they were electing not to build the community. I feel like there's some truth to that; but alas!
I wouldn't call them "part of the problem" — it's just consequence. An invariable part of the cycle when a forum is imploding.
And, to be sure, the forum was imploding when I made note of it. It had old, acrimonious, dysfunctional blood (vehements!), really really weird dumb new posters with lightning-rod positions that they would ceaselessly and incoherently argue (slags!) attracted here by OSC's own politically motivated activity, and the forum was totally. not. being. moderated. at. all.
It's not just some unique hatrack thing, neither.
And if this place is getting better as opposed to just stabilizing post-implosion (I think it's getting better, personally) I could explain why in detail. In conclusion: The Book of Mormon is a play, perhaps it is kind of controversial, I am not derailing at all.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aerin: your condeming me for deleting nasty posts
I did no such thing. I merely stated that it was clear who had deleted the posts. If you read condemnation into that, that's your problem.
Similarly, I bear you no grudge. I'm fairly sick of your exceedingly anti-social behavior on Hatrack, but I don't take it personally or anything. So if you think there's a grudge between us, you might check its directionality.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:I find it less of a haven for social conservatives but, perhaps because of that, more welcoming than it was when I first posted here.
It's likely that people feel more welcome when their beliefs generally match the beliefs of the community in which they find themselves.
I don't remember Hatrack ever being a "haven" for social conservatives; I do remember a time when I felt that religion was a safe topic to talk about, and that rather than having to be silent in order to keep the peace, I could be honest about my beliefs, and have an expectation of honest, non-vitriolic discussion.
People found faith here; people lost faith here. I think we saw equal amounts of both. But I feel like it was all done mostly with civility.
The community is what it is. Nothing is more likely than that I'm a geezer with faulty memories and a yearning to be back in the in-crowd.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I barely even think of you, much less dislike you, and I was happy to read the welcome thread. The unceromonious deletion, however, was a little off-putting, and this behavior now is completely bizarre. Are you looking to make me not like you? It might work.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:I find it less of a haven for social conservatives but, perhaps because of that, more welcoming than it was when I first posted here.
It's likely that people feel more welcome when their beliefs generally match the beliefs of the community in which they find themselves.
I don't remember Hatrack ever being a "haven" for social conservatives; I do remember a time when I felt that religion was a safe topic to talk about, and that rather than having to be silent in order to keep the peace, I could be honest about my beliefs, and have an expectation of honest, non-vitriolic discussion.
People found faith here; people lost faith here. I think we saw equal amounts of both. But I feel like it was all done mostly with civility.
The community is what it is. Nothing is more likely than that I'm a geezer with faulty memories and a yearning to be back in the in-crowd.
Whereas, I was told that, among other things, that only LDS were welcome to discuss those things and my heathenish, slutty* viewpoint was unwelcome. It was very hostile. I suppose a balance is difficult to find. I don't think that religious people need to keep quiet to keep the peace (I certainly don't) but I do think it fair to challenge and be challenged on those beliefs.
*Not in exactly those words, but close.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:and this behavior now is completely bizarre.
- rivka neutrally points out a pattern involved
- you perceive and accuse rivka of something rivka did not do, and turn it, in your own head, into a grudge
- noting fairly straightforwardly that the perceived grudge does not exist and the condemnation you rushed headlong into making is not valid is not 'completely bizarre.' It is actually a pretty rational, mature, and appropriate response to such an accusation
- especially if this is all happening pretty much at the drop of a hat, and now you're going to use THIS as an excuse to not like rivka, well, it speaks to the standard by which you decide someone has deserved your contempt.
Like others, I legitimately wish you could see what you're doing.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Whereas, I was told that, among other things, that only LDS were welcome to discuss those things and my heathenish, slutty* viewpoint was unwelcome. It was very hostile.
I don't remember that.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Whereas, I was told that, among other things, that only LDS were welcome to discuss those things and my heathenish, slutty* viewpoint was unwelcome. It was very hostile.
I don't remember that.
...probably because I wasn't around then. I keep forgetting you're "older" than your member name.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Whereas, I was told that, among other things, that only LDS were welcome to discuss those things and my heathenish, slutty* viewpoint was unwelcome. It was very hostile.
I don't remember that.
Maybe because it was only an occasional thing. Uh, pun intended?
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I don't remember you being around then. It was a long time ago. 1997 - 1999, I think. I remember, Grayson and Karl, Rodney, Morgan Majors, and John Hansen...
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aerin: Samp, butt out. Your biased dogpiling is both unwelcome and stupid.
I'll let you know when you've made a credible point regarding whether or not I should openly respond to you being an unreasonably hostile, hypocritically injurious poster. Until then — and at least until I can be convinced that my behavior is less welcome — you will just have to accept my 'unwelcome' behavior just as readily as we end up having to welcome yours.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I don't remember you being around then. It was a long time ago. 1997 - 1999, I think. I remember, Grayson and Karl, Rodney, Morgan Majors, and John Hansen...
Yeah, I wasn't-- I didn't go on the BFFC forums until 1999, right after the migration from Big Mouth Lion (maybe a bit before).
It's funny: check out Samp's link upthread for an almost exact reenactment of this thread. Some good discussion in the initial pages of that thread.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Aerin: You firmly reaffirm my opinion of Hatrack and the people who have come to populate it.
I don't know how many times you want to hinge on this point.
(It's pretty obvious that you will eventually think this way of pretty much any online community which does not just provide for your double standard — i.e. weather your confrontational outbursts without appropriately confronting your behavior in return, so)
(I am feeding the bears)
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Kat: You don't have to be this angry. You're losing your presence of mind, and it's so unpleasant to see, not to mentino miserable for you. There are several posters all saying similar things to you, and while you might feel they all have axes to grind, that doesn't mean you have to lose your cool.
There are plenty of people here who don't dislike you, but you need to lower your shields as it were, and perhaps not feel like a wounded animal so much. This thread could use a general cooling of passions.
-----
I will note though for others that if a poster has indicated they have no intention of listening to you, it might be prudent to not continue to address them, their responding to you makes them dishonest, you trying to get them to respond to you on Hatrack is rude to put it lightly.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: It's funny: check out Samp's link upthread for an almost exact reenactment of this thread. Some good discussion in the initial pages of that thread.
I was excited to hear they were making a remake of the original, but then I heard I was going to be played by Elliott Gould, and, ehh
quote:I will note though for others that if a poster has indicated they have no intention of listening to you, it might be prudent to not continue to address them, their responding to you makes them dishonest, you trying to get them to respond to you on Hatrack is rude to put it lightly.
Hold on.
When I read this, it sounds poorly reasoned. If a poster notifies me "I am so not listening to you!" it doesn't make it so that if they subsequently start berating us/our posts/the community, that ANY responding to this behavior is 'rude to put it lightly.'
If this were true, I could just say "I am not listening to any of you. At all. I completely disregard your opinions." then sit here and just berate people or their opinions openly and now they're just supposed to not respond to me? Or they're rude? In my opinion, a great way to empower the abusers to have a shield of eggshells around them.
posted
Samprimary: I'm was not addressing whether or not a poster continues to make comments towards those they have said they are not listening to.
Obviously if that is the case it's a different situation.
Also, if they are going on to be a bad element in the community that necessitates action on someone's part, though it should not necessarily be *you* if they have indicated they won't listen to you.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Seriously, I think it's a lost cause. As long as there are people like Samp, it doesn't matter about the silent majority.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Seriously, I think it's a lost cause. As long as there are people like Samp, it doesn't matter about the silent majority.
Kat: The fact I moderate this forum pretty clearly indicates that I don't agree with you. Samp is actually an extremely valuable poster in many respects.
Sure he grates at times, I've come to learn even I do that and I used to think I was good at avoiding conflict. You might not want to listen to him, and you don't have to, but you'd do well to read what he is saying right now and pretend it's not him saying it.
This place is not prohibitive of interesting discourse. Has it had problems? Yes absolutely. Does it have problems? Yes absolutely. Will it recover? I'm not sure, I'm trying to see to it that happens. You can help.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aerin: You firmly reaffirm my opinion of Hatrack and the people who have come to populate it.
Then why are you still participating? I don't mean to suggest that I want you to leave - you are an interesting person who often has a great perspective to bring to conversations - but you seem extremely unhappy right now, so what is your purpose in continuing to escalate this unfortunate discussion?
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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1) It isn't all dross. There's some gold, sometimes. Not on the past couple of pages, granted, but sometimes; 2) I don't know if you saw the list of Hatrackers, but the part about bored underachievers included me. Not in Real Life, of course, but for all this writing and wordplay, there are other things I could do with it, so why not? See above. (I guess that's not really an answer.) 3) Some of it is seriously MEANT to be distancing and offputting. There's an ingratiating, entitled assumption of familiarity here sometimes that I find tremendously invasive and creepy, and I'm not being insulting when I say I'd rather some people stay far away and quit thinking I want a personal conversation. I seriously just want an impersonal, topical discussion, but if you're <irony alerty> lovely and vivacious and clever and vocal like me</irony alert>, then you have to DEAL with those assumptions of familiarity and I HATE that. I HAVE friends, I have a boyfriend, I have close family, and I have all sorts of spiritual and health advisors on tap if I need that. I would PREFER to be the prickly, cold-hearted bitch if it would JUST keep socially-insensitive, pornographyYay!, Internet strangers AWAY from me. This "I see into your soul and truly understand you" is CREEPY.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Kat: I see, well that certainly explains a lot.
If you want things to remain impersonal, that's fine, I respect that. I can't give much advice as to how to accomplish that as I don't know what it's like to want to converse with people but keep all of my personal details hidden. Over time they spill out for me. I have tons of friends in real life, a group of them come from forums, I know what it's like to have so many friends there isn't time enough maintain them all equally, but I've never experienced a total filling of that niche. I'm always in the friend market as it were.
I at least understand now why you find it so provoking when people try to analyze you or ask you to volunteer information. That will be very useful information when we converse in the future.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Interesting. You have some fundamentally different expectations and preferences compared to other active posters and this explanation does illuminate why some previous interactions have headed south.
Many people do enjoy personal conversation online. Whether this represents a minor pathology or not can be a determination left to the reader, but it seems doubtful that you can change either their behavior or your expectations so perhaps when one of your boundaries is approached you should just quietly depart from the line of discussion that is heading there. Easier said than done, of course, but that's been my strategy on the occasion where I don't want to go "there."
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Hmmm, the creepy comment has me ruminating. I have read Hatrack for around 10 years and it has had a profound affect on shaping my critical thinking skills, my understanding of other perspectives, and my personal opinion on numerous topics. And yet, I really don't post much or feel the need to post much. There's people here, including kat, who I do feel I "know" on some level because over the years, they've volunteered a wealth of information about themselves and their thought processes. If you took any of the prominent posters' posts and compiled them, they would likely be multiple volumes of lengthy books.
I don't know that a poster can write that much about their own opinions and perspectives without the people who read it starting to feel some type of knowledge about that person. Sure it's just an aspect of who they are, not a complete picture. But I think it's a very real aspect- I know Mary or Porter said once that Hatrack enhanced their marriage by allowing them to see different sides of each other.
So while more lurkish people like me are likely creepy, because we read but don't reciprocate in the sharing, I think a certain amount of familiarity after years and years of fairly personal sharing is not assumptive. I'm not trying to inflame anything or accuse anyone. I just thought I'd offer my perspective on why I think that is a fairly natural thing to develop.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I would like to note that there is a difference between a relative stranger (someone who posts on the same internet discussion board, for instance) displaying an ingratiating, entitled assumption of familiarity vs when a person accuses another person/group of people of specific wrong doing publicly and then refuses to explain even basic details when other people wonder about the circumstance.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: If you took any of the prominent posters' posts and compiled them, they would likely be multiple volumes of lengthy books.
>_<
Thanks. I now have an image of all my Hatrack posts taking up a shelf of my bookcase.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
The personal boundaries issues explains a lot for me. Different people (and different communities) have different norms about what's polite. I have my own frustrations with society having a lot of norms that I wish were different.
I think it's important to understand the rules you're dealing with and work within them. I also think it's important not to compromise your own values too much. And the world would be a better place if we tried to me more accommodating of each other's preferences.
I don't think that excuses all of kat's behavior. I think you can say "I prefer not to have this type of discussion" without insulting a person. And there are types of conversations (such as, say, what counts as disrespect) that are inherently personal, or at least I'm not capable of discussing them without getting more personal that kat would prefer.
But I'll make an effort to respect that preference in the future.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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