posted
Misha-hmm...I seem to remember him ducking through doorways and a thought like that, however I thought it was, 'I wonder what it'll be like when I'm fourteen?', as though he was not that age yet.
I think we need to find that scene. If nobody else happens to remember where that is offhand, I think I'm going to make re-reading SotH my Thanksgiving day and 1/2 project.
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posted
demosthenes, yeah, Ender was definitely 11 at the final battle of the fleet, because he had *just* turned 12 after the weeks following.
I'll see if I can find the reference in SP where Bean thinks he's 14. That would be a great reference to get nailed out. If that's the case, that would make Petra 19, depending upon when their birthdays are and what time of year it is.
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posted
This WOULD be while my books (*sob* I miss my books!) are in storage for the year.
Don't mind me, just carry on. Y'all'll crack this thing yet! (And the 13/18 sounds about what I recall, too.)
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posted
I have no idea what age they'd be at by the end, but I would think it'd be best to leave that somewhat to the imagination.... I just think of them as young adultish.
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posted
'kay...I dug through and found where Petra says in SP (page 124 of the paperback) that it was a 'scant three years later' referencing the time from the destruction of the bugger homeworld to the time of the marriage. At the beginning of SotH, she says she's 14. That means that she can't be any older than 17 at the time of the wedding. And by the end of the book, she could be 18, but no older than that, since the pregnancy can't be more than about 20 weeks.
I couldn't find where Bean thinks he's 14, but I don't know how he could be that old. He'd have to be 13 at the oldest.
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posted
Still gonna have to put Bean at eleven or twelve. We know how old he is at the time of the Third Invasion. He's eight. A scant three years later, that puts him at eleven. Round up for safety if you like, but he's still nowhere near fourteen. Remember, Petra is older than Ender by at least two, probably three years (He is eleven at final battle, she is fourteen when she goes home.) If Bean were thirteen when she was seventeen (for the wedding), Ender would be about fourteen. That would make Bean only one year younger than Ender. We know this to be false. Bean is several years younger than Ender. Approximately three, in fact. Which, once again, puts him around eleven.
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posted
In SP at the very beginning, Bean was wondering how long he had left - 1 year, 3, 5? Sr. Carlotta has mentioned in SOTH that if Bean died before 15, it would only be a mild surprise. That if Bean lived to 20 it would defy all rational explanation. So, if Bean is estimating between 1-5 years life span remaining, it seems he would be 14 at the beginning of SP.
Edited to include: I can find where Valentine is id'd as 14 before she and Ender take off for the colony, but Petra's age was not id'd. She made the funny about they were kids and had to go to school until they were 17.
Petra did ID herself as returning home at 14 in the beginning of SOTH. But if we subtract 3-4 months for travel and probably a month at least for the earthbound war after the bugger wars, then she would have been 13ish on Eros.
posted
i read both recently, and i cannot be sure, but i would guess bean is in his pre-teen to early teen area, maybe 14 or 15 at oldest, making petra older, but i am just writing a guess. hope the mystery gets solved!
quote: So, roughly six years from the end of the bugger war to the end of Shadow Puppets. Petra was thirteen or fourteen at the end of Ender's game/Ender's Shadow, so that would put her at age twenty.
That six years thing is in complete defiance with the "Scant three years later". There's no way three years passed on Eros after the war.
12 and 17 (at the wedding) sounds icky but probably correct. Since we don't know exact birthdays I'd like to round up to 13 and 18 (at the end of "Puppets") for my own peace of mind.
posted
Why, PSI? If she's actually over 18 and he's not, that makes it (by current law, at least) worse, neh? Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I tried to find and dig up my books but they've gone AWOL for the time being. I'm working from memory alone, so I'm most probably wrong on the particulars. I do know that Petra hit puberty before she left Eros, in the beginning of SotH she thinks about how she was helped with her first period by a Fleet nurse. And if I'm not mistaken, Bean's voice changed close to the end of SotH while he was training the Thai soldiers.
Posts: 262 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Misha, We know for a fact that petra was fourteen when she arrive in Armenia, home from the war. We also know that the wedding between Bean and Petra was a "scant three years" after the final battle. The jeesh all returned home within a few months after the final battle, so unless Petra's birthday was on Eros after the battle, she is seventeen at the time she marries Bean. She immediately becomes pregnant, and is no later than early second trimester at the end of the book, so it follows that she is seventeen at the end of Shadow Puppets. As for Bean, We also know him to be about eight at the time of the final battle. The same quote apply, so all we have to do is add three years and a few months. It follows he s either eleven or twelve at the time of the wedding.
End of Shadow Puppets:
Petra: 17 years old (or recently turned 18) Bean: 11 years old (or just turned 12)
Problem solved. Petra's period isn't relevant, because we KNOW she is fourteen on her return home. Bean's voice change could be at any age because he has a unique physiology.
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posted
I think it's likely that Bean turned nine before Petra was captured. Using the timeline you linked to we see that Bean's "birthday" is not long after Ender's, in that it's "after" Ender's birthday rather than "before", and since Ender turns 12 right after the League War ends, it stands to reason that Bean would probably turn nine in the following months.
But even so, if Bean had just turned nine when Petra was captured, that would mean he had just turned twelve (thereabouts) before the wedding, so at most he's a couple of months into his thirteenth year at the end of "Puppets". So you are right. He's either a late eleven or an early twelve. But I'm betting on twelve.
Too bad. I so wanted to stretch it to 13.
After looking at it again I realize that (using the three year assumption here) even if Bean hadn't turned twelve by the time of the wedding, he had to have turned twelve directly after it. He's definitely 12. I don't think we will know for sure if Petra is 17 or 18.
posted
All in all, I think you guys gave OSC just what he needed...rough guestimations and citations of your sources. Good job!!
Didn't he have to seriously bluff Alvin's age at the beginning of Crystal City and make several more years pass than we thought? He can do the same thing again. And if Bean is only 11 or 12, then he's still got at least three years to live, if not 5-6, so we're good.
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posted
Unfortunately it can't be exact, because OSC didn't find that mentioning every one of the major (and minor) characters birthdays every single year particularly helped advance the plot or expose the characters. Short-sighted buffoon! Posts: 894 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
I don't think this has been pointed out anywhere, but according to p. 15 of the Hardback edition of Shadow Puppets, Bean was 11 when he met his parents.
quote:But having a father and mother show up when you're eleven isn't the same as growing up with them.
Since we know Petra is also 14 at that time, whatever their current ages are, there's probably three years separating them. A lot depends, though, on how much time has passed between SotH and SP. We know it is at least two years:
quote:...but that only meant that they didn't want to give any publicity to the Hegemon, didn't want to boost his reputation or prestige among those who feared China in these years since the conquest of India and Indochina.
If we go by the quote mentioned earlier, saying that it's been three years since Petra was in Russia, then Petra is 17 and Bean is 14 (which fits in to the timeline estimating that Bean would only have a few years left at most after he hit puberty). If a few months passed (as parts of SotH suggest) between when Petra got home and when she was kidnapped, you can safely put them at 18 and 15.
As for Peter, well, I'm guessing 19 or 20, but that's just a guess. He's definitely still a teenager during SotH (there's a passage in the email exchange at the beginning of Ch. 14 that confirms it...sort of).
So...for sake of safety and sanity, I'd say that at the end of Shadow Puppets... Petra 18 Bean 15 Peter 20
posted
Yikes! I think we have conflicting quotes, then. Uh Oh! Most be one of those hidden features for ultra-fans Posts: 894 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
Most of this has probably been covered but here's my thoughts,
Petra’s easy so I’ll start with her
quote: But nothing had prepared her for the fact that she had left here as a five-year-old and now was returning at fourteen.
Ch 1 SofH.
We don’t know how long she was home before the abduction but it has to be at least several months.
The quote "and a scant three years later would be married to him" isn't referring to 3 years after the last bugger battle but to 3 years after she was kidnapped.
quote: Even when Ender's jeesh was kidnapped and confined together in Russia, she and Dink bantered with each other just like old times, but she felt no spark.
Through all that time, she would have laughed if anyone suggested that she would fall in love with Bean, and a scant three years later would be married to him
Ch 9 SP
That makes her at least 17/18 when they go to Rotterdam to see Volescu to make babies.
It doesn’t make it clear at the end of the book how far along in her pregnancy Petra is. Some info we so know: 1.She was still suffering from morning sickness in Damascus before Bean goes to confront Achilles and that usually ends at around the 4th month but can last the whole pregnancy; 2.Then there’s her comment as she boards the plane to fly back to meet Bean that she’s “a little pregnant.” That could be taken two ways: either factually i.e. she’s only just pregnant but as morning sickness usually develops at least a month into the pregnancy and with all that’s gone on she’d have to be about 2-3 months; or jokingly i.e. he can clearly see she’s pregnant and therefore she must be showing and further along, say 4-6 months. 3. I have known people, however, who hardly showed at all until they were well towards the end of their pregnancy. As Petra is very fit and unlikely to be carrying excess weight and as the baby probably has Anton’s Key turned, so its unlikely to be big, it could be possible that it’s not obvious that she’s pregnant when she’s 7-8 months along.
So to summarise I reckon Petra is 18/19 allowing for the time from meeting Volescu to the end of SP.
posted
Now Bean of course is much more complicated as I get 3 answers depending on which source I use:
1. When Ender finds out Bean’s been made Commander he says:
quote: After all, you’re only 4 years younger than the regular age.
Ch 12 of EG (& Ch18 of ES)
If we assume the earliest age for a Commander before Ender was 11 as used in VBS then that would make Bean 7 then.
We know from ES the following times have passed before the beginning of SotH:
BS = 8dys after Ender left (Ch 21); BS to Tactical = 4mths (Ch 21) (intro says 2mths from BS to ISL but doesn’t mention the 2mths from ISL to Tactical); At Tactical = 3mths (Ch 21 intro.); Tactical to Command = 4mths (Ch 21 intro. & Ch 22); Time spent training at Command before Ender joined them = ?; Time spent training with Ender = ?; Time spent during battles = ?; Time between final battle and war on earth = ?; War on earth = 5dys (Ch 24); Spent spent before leaving for home = ?.
This all comes to at least 1 year not counting the ?’s. The training and battle have to have been at least several months if not longer. Then there was Graff’s trial and Ch 15 of EG talks about Ender waiting "through the empty months" before "One by one, his friends reluctantly left him," as they were called home. (I can’t see Bean rushing off, can you?) . So I reckon it’s more likely to be 2 years at least making him 9 years old when he arrives back on earth.
2. The above contradicts the Bean's statement when he's talking to Graff and says:
quote: I think I'm seven
Ch 22 of ES
We know that Bean was only 5 when he was sent to BS and if we assume he only spent 1 year there and became Commander at 6 then he could have been 7 at this time (adding 1 year for travelling from BS and Tactical School). We’d then need to add another year for the time training at Command, the battles and everything before he returns home. So he’d be 8 when he got home.
3.
quote: But having a father and mother show up when you're eleven isn't the same as growing up with them.
Ch 1 of SP
Infers that Bean was 11 when he got back to his parents which again contradicts the idea that Bean was only 7 when he was at Command School, unless it took 4 years to train them with Ender, battle and return home.
There are no more references I can find to his age in SotH or SP just to his growth and to Petra’s age. So to get from his age at the end of ES to that at the end of SP we need to use the information and assumptions we have for Petra i.e. time from arriving home to abductions, 3yrs from abductions to marriage and time from Volescu meeting to end of SP. For Petra I’ve allowed 4/5 years total.
So for Beans age at the end of SP that gives me either:
posted
Uncle Orson wants me to thank you all very very much. He's trying to finish up Shadow of the Giant over Thanksgiving, and you've given him great stuff.
posted
Yay! Now I feel all warm and fuzzy, like I was a tiny part of something BIG! I love that!! (You guys did all the work though. )
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quote:Uncle Orson wants me to thank you all very very much. He's trying to finish up Shadow of the Giant over Thanksgiving, and you've given him great stuff.
Whoa.
It's a weird feeling knowing that he might be writing the book right now...!
posted
Kristine, I’m just glad to know that Scott is finishing up Shadow of the Giant. Yeah!! Thank you for the news!
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posted
Um, guys, you're missing a point about Bean. He is both mentally and physically much older than Petra, so his actual age is meaningless, when saying he's too young to marry Petra and have kids.
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posted
Well Bean being around 8 at the final battle in EG and with about 5 or so years with the leauge war he is around 13.
Is it just me or does OSC tend to write about young relationships in the Homecoming series Nafai and Luet were around 13-15 also, as well as the other characters (Issib & Hushidh come to mind) also fairly young. Same with Miro & Valentine/Jane. I am not implying anything but its just something i've noticed over the last few days. All due respect, OSC is my favorite author and few other books can even come close to the Enderverse and Homecoming series.
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posted
yay! if the book gets on the shelves before april i can get the book for my b-day! (that is assuming that after mr. card finishes writing the book, getting it edited and published, and then becoming a book!
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posted
Lol, OSC is going to hate me for mentioning this. But, the one well known Sci Fi historical precendent for this kind of relationship with the age difference and the younger guy, is Anakin and Amidala, though they were still a bit older. I think. (I'm sure the star wars gurus know exactly how old Anakin was when they got married.) But I heard the Wierd Al song going through my head over the weekend where "Look at him hitting on the queen, though he's just 9 and she's 14, he's probably going to marry her someday..." And I started mumbling (well internally) 9, hmm, 14, hmmm... oh that's close to the Bean-Petra age gap!
quote: Lol, OSC is going to hate me for mentioning this. But, the one well known Sci Fi historical precendent for this kind of relationship with the age difference and the younger guy, is Anakin and Amidala, though they were still a bit older. I think. (I'm sure the star wars gurus know exactly how old Anakin was when they got married.) But I heard the Wierd Al song going through my head over the weekend where "Look at him hitting on the queen, though he's just 9 and she's 14, he's probably going to marry her someday..." And I started mumbling (well internally) 9, hmm, 14, hmmm... oh that's close to the Bean-Petra age gap!
Well, the ages 9 and 14 are from SW:Episode 1 and since Episode 2 takes place about 10 years after that, then they would be about 19 and 24 when they got married. That's not exactly the same as getting married at 12 and 17.
But anyway, I don't really have a problem with it. The emotional maturity of Bean and Petra is much higher than your average 12 and 17 year old.
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posted
Yeah it says on pg.#5 of SP - "But having a father and mother show up when your 11 isn't the same as growing up with them."
This of course is Bean commenting on how he met his 'technically' parents the Delphikis. Bean met the Delphikis with Nikolai after the final battle at the end of Enders Shadow, could this mean that Bean was not 8 but instead 11 and adding about 5 years with the league war would mean that he's around 16 give or take.
posted
Look man, the series will never end. It's too good. While waiting inbetween played video games and read asimov and hubbard books.
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quote: Um, guys, you're missing a point about Bean. He is both mentally and physically much older than Petra, so his actual age is meaningless, when saying he's too young to marry Petra and have kids.
Mentally old isn't exactly the same as emotionally old. He can be the smartest guy around, have a big body, and still be emotionally 12 years old. Growing quickly doesn't automatically bestow one with experience.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
With what's happening with the Robot/Empire/Foundation series of Asimov, I wouldn't be surprised if the Enderverse outlived OSC.
quote:Also, he's not physically older -- just more developed.
Um, yes he is. You can't be a 12 year old commando and live to tell about it if you're not physically up to snuff, no matter what agent Cody Banks tells ya.
That's also why he's dying. Think of him like the Robin Williams character Jack, with a superbrain and a workout routine.
The only thing to consider is the emotional growth, but that was accelerated for all of the kids in Ender's jeesh. When you fight a few wars, you tend to mature quickly.
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posted
No matter how developed he is, he is not physically old. Physically aged, possibly, but his body is still no more than about 12 years old.
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posted
As in the length of time he has existed, yes, but that's not what 'physically old' means. Physically old is more like he has the body of a __ year old.
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posted
I think that's exactly what he means. He has the body of a 12-year old who hasn't hit a growth spurt. He still has a soft spot in the back of his head that hasn't fused. So he's not "physically old" like the kids with Progeria (or kinda like the Jack character) whose cells age rapidly. He has Anton's key, which is something wholly different.
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