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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » OSC's review of Harry Potter! (Page 2)

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Author Topic: OSC's review of Harry Potter!
Irregardless
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I disagree with OSC about Dumbledore. Yeah, Snape's probably a good guy, but I believe he really killed Dumbledore. I don't think JKR would pull a trick as cheap as having it all be an act. After all, Harry's parents are really dead. Sirius is really dead. Cedric Griggory is really dead. Why shouldn't Dumbledore stay dead?

Having said that, I bet there will still be some interaction with Dumbledore in HP VII, via his portrait in the headmaster's office and/or Pensieve memories he left behind for Harry.

And I don't believe Harry (or his scar) is a Horcrux. I doubt that one can be created by accident.

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Sid Meier
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So is it going to be seven books? This is a series IMHO that could have dozens of books in it.
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Sandrino
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Dumbledore could really be dead. But the whole business with his familiar being a phoenix cannot just be a coincidence at this point. I am sure Dumbledore will be back in the next book but Harry must face Voldemort alone. It would hurt Harry's character to need Dumbledore or any other wizard for the final fight.

I also don't think Snape is a bad guy. He is an ass but Dumbledore could not be this wrong about Snape. If Dumbledore was such a bad judge of character, he would have been killed long ago. I don't think that Dumbledore was begging for his life but that he was asking Snape to do what he must do and kill him. Snape had to kill Dumbledore for Draco otherwise he would have died and the Order of the Phoenix would have lost the best mole that they have. Snape has had many chances to go to Voldemort's side he could have tried to kill Dumbledore or Harry many times before.

The portraits in the headmaster's office are no more than simulacra. They don't hold all the knowledge of the person. The portraits are no different than the other magical photos in the books. They don't hold the intellect of the person just their image.

JKR has always said that there will be seven books and only seven books. She insists that there will be no more Harry Potter books. We'll see in a few years when the movies are all done and her publishers offer her more money.

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Irregardless
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Re: Dumbledore's family -- FYI, Dumbledore's brother Aberforth is the bartender at the Hog's Head in Hogsmeade.
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jeniwren
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There is a theory that Dumbledore actually died while attempting to destroy the ring horcrux, and that Snape was able to defer his death by way of a potion. In book 1, Snape said to his class that he could show them how to bottle glory, stopper death. This theory builds on the idea that he can "stopper" death, deferring it for a little while. It explains a lot...explains why he'd be willing to then kill Dumbledore, since he knows the man is already dead. And explains some of the phoenix symbolism.

Interesting theory, but I don't know if I buy it.

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sarcasticmuppet
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Jo has gone as far to say that she would be willing to do sort of background books about the characters or world, but who knows how that'll work out.
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KEGE
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jeniwren - that is a very interesting theory that I had not heard up to this point!

I agree with Mr. Card in that the scene in which Dumbledore pleads with Snape does not make any sense if you read it with the idea that Dumbledore is pleading for his life. It would be TOTALLY out of character for Dumbledore to beg for his life.

The scene reads:

"But somebody else had spoken Snape's name, quite softly.
'Severus...'
The sound frightend Harry beyond anything he had experienced al evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading.
Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way. The three Death Eaters fell back without a word. Even the werewofl seemed cowed.
Anape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.
'Severus ....please...'
Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore.
'Avada Kedavra!'
A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest. Harry's scream of horror never left him; silent and unmoving, he was forced to watch as Dumbledore was blasted into the air."

Combine this scene with the one on page 405 where Harry asks Hagrid:

"'Hagrid, why is Dumbledore angry with Snape' Harry asked loudly....
....'What's Snape done?'
" I dunno Hary, I shouldn'ta heard it at all! I - well, I was comin' outta the forest the other evenin; an' I overheard'em talkng -- well, arguin'. Didn't like ter draw attention to meself, so I sorta skulked an'tried not ter listen, but it was a -- well, a heated discussion an' it wasn' easy ter block it out.'
'Well?' Harry urged him, as Hagraid shuffled his enormous feel uneasily.
'Well - I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he -- Snape -- didn' wan' ter do it anymore --'
'Do what?'
'I dunno Harry, it sounded like Snape was feelin' a bit overworked, tha's all -- anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it. Pretty firm with him...'"

And it makes it seem that regardless of whether Dumbledore is dead or not - Snape is probably did not betray Dumbledore.

Snape's father was a muggle (not Dumbledore) so he's a Half-Blood and his mother's maiden name Eileen Prince. Snape is a half-blood prince and at the time he was in school I don't think the pureblood movement was at its height. Snape is just like Voldemort - muggle dad, witch mother.

I think Harry must face Voldemort alone. It's archetypal.

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Princess Leah
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I feel so torn over Dumbledore being *actually dead*. On the one hand, I WANT HIM BACK!!! But on the other hand, if he comes back I'll feel cheated, because it doesn't make sense. As folks already pointed out a) typical hero must do it on his own in the end, and b) he's buried in a really thorough way.

There is the Phoenix thing... As I was reading along, totally in shock, I read the next chapter's title- you know, the one that is "the Phoenix's Lament" or something like that. I felt hope swell, but again, he couldn't come back. Sirius is really dead, after all. Particularly in the later books, Rowling doesn't fool around with making everything Happy Schoolkid-Friendly Fantasy Land. It wouldn't be in character for her to be so hokey and cliched and patronizing as to bring Dumbledore back somehow. And if it didn't happen with the Phoenix in book 6, it *couldn't* happen in book 7 unless she wants to lose all her reputation as a serious fantasy writer. The whole coming-back-in-final-book thing can't happen. Too forced of a happy ending. I mean, Gandalf came back in the middle book... and he'd only "fallen into shadow." Imagine if, oh, say, Theoden came back just in time to lead Rohan to victory. Could never happen. At some point you have to admit that magic only works so far against the basic forces of nature. Willow couldn't raise Tara even as an completely black-arts-saturated morals-to-the-winds witch.

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KEGE
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I do not think that JK Rowling would "lose all her reputation as a serious fantasy writer" if Dumbledore is not really dead. There are too many clues and possibilities that would make his return as plausible as Gandalf's return in the Tolkein books.

Sirius fell through the curtain of the arch in the death chamber. That is the wizarding world's execution chamber for enforcing the death penalty on their kind. Thus is would be much more implausible if Sirius returned than Dumbledore.

That said - I believe Harry will face Voldemort on his own and that the "feeling sorry for Lord Voldemort" emotion that Dumbledore questions him about after one of their pensieve journeys will be what enables him to destroy Voldemort. Dumbledore repeatedly tells Harry that the power which Harry possesses "of which the Dark Lord knows not" is simply his ability to love.

Perhaps Harry will kill Lord Voldemort and we'll find Harry and Tom Riddle left standing after the dust settles.

I don't think Harry's scar is a horcrux and that's why Voldemort wants to kill Harry himself. Voldemort decides to be rid of Harry in the Ministry battle at the end of Order of the Phoenix and tries repeatedly to kill Harry only to be thwarted by Dumbledore. Voldemort doesn't want anyone else to kill Harry because then that person has accomplished a task that the all powerful Lord Voldemort has botched about half a dozen times.

How good could that be for his image? [Wink]

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imogen
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Stray, that was a fantastic paragraph. [Big Grin]

And yes, I agree. Dumbledore is Deadydore. Gone and gone.

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LucyPevensie
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um.. is it just me, or is anyone else wondering what Harry's parents did before they died? I've read the series several times and I fail to see where JKR has mentioned them except in reference to their death. Were they Aurors? Did they work for the Ministry at all? We know they defied Voldemort 3 times, but we don't know what those defiances were.

man, I can't wait for book 7. This is torture.

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KEGE
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We have not yet ever been told what Lily and James did from the time they left Hogwarts to their death except marry, have Harry, join the original Order of the Phonenix, defy Voldemort 3 times, go into hiding with Harry and die at Voldemort's hands.

I'd be surprised if they were Aurors since much is made of the Longbottoms having been top notch Aurors until Bellatrix and crew tortured them into insanity.

I can't see the Potters working for the Ministry since they are "Dumbledore's man through and through" and Dumbledore didn't ever get along with the Ministry.

I guess we'll find out in Book 7 when Harry goes home to Godric Hollow?

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LucyPevensie
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I'm getting extremely worried that book seven isn't going to be quite as good as we've been anticipating. The last two books have made me start to think that I've built up the expectations too high. The end of book five when Harry hears the prophecy and is talking to Dumbledore was literally an entire chapter of review of the series. JKR simply stated things that have been implied fact almost since book 1. Not to mention book six, which as has been said before, is mostly just fluff... set-up for book seven. But what if book seven doesn't deliver?? [Angst] [Angst] [Angst]
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KEGE
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I didn't see book six as mostly just fluff so I'm not worried about book seven. Merely worried that it won't come out soon enough for me - which would be, say, yesterday!
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Paco_The_Insane
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Forgoten by every one else, we do know there will be a new character: R. A. B. They probably are dead and we know they were a death eater, which makes me think it was Regulus Black, Sirius's brother.

I think Dumbledore is dead, but maybe he left clues for Harry through the pensive or some other way. I also think Snape is not evil and Dumbledore forced Snape to kill him. This would keep Snape alive and able to work for Voldemort.

And what was the whole point of Harry and Ginny's relationship if they were just Going to break up at the end. If they don't get back together in the next book, then it was such a waste of room that could have been about horcruxes.

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Zarex
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I think that it is quite plausible that Harry's scar is a horicrux. After all, at the end of book five, Voldemort posesses Harry for a short while, and that is while voldemort has a physical body is supposedly unable to posess people. Another thing, also in book five, Harry "becomes part of" Nagina-Voldemort's snake- which is supposedly also a horicrux. Its all quite convoluted.
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LucyPevensie
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I don't think that Voldemort posessing Harry in book 5 was so much "posessing" as it was extremely strong occlumency/imperious curse. But i could be wrong about that.

But I do know for sure that Harry becoming part of Nagini and also feeling the same emotions that Voldemort felt WAS occlumency... the accidental sort that came from the curse scar.

Don't forget that Dumbledore himself was an extremely gifted occlumens, as JKR hints in all six books with small comments about how it seems that Dumbledore knows when Harry, Ron & Hermione are sneaking around, can see them under the invisibility cloak, knows when they're hiding something, etc.

Also, in regards to the person who said that the paintings in the Headmasters office do not have the full wisdom of the actual person, I'm pretty sure that's wrong. Phineas Nigellus often gives his annoyed opinions about Harry, and even Sirius, and Harry often walks into Dumbledore's office just as Dumbledore is discussing a serious problem with the previous headmasters in the paintings. One of the most hilarious visuals that JKR gives is the Portraits in the Headmaster's office pretending to be asleep all the time, but really listening to everything thats going on so they can give their opinions to Dumbledore after Harry has left the office.

ALSO on that note, Dumbledore said (in book 4 or 5?) that the more prestigious headmasters were lucky enough to have their portraits in more than one place. So the question becomes (since with McGonagall as new headmasterwill probably not let Harry just "hang out" in her office)
Where is Dumbledore's other portrait??

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Tresopax
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I don't see how Snape could be good AND Dumbledore could come back. This is because of the Unbreakable Vow. If Dumbledore survived and Snape knew he would, then that means he would have broken his vow.
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jeniwren
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If Harry is a horcrux, I cannot believe that Dumbledore even guesses at it, which seems impossible given his considerable thought toward the subject. If Harry were a horcrux, and Dumbledore knew, it would be the height of callousness to continue to train him to counter the man whose soul fragment he carries. Plus I would think that the influence of evil and selfishness from the soul fragment would slowly turn Harry evil.

The more I think about it, the less I can believe that Harry is a horcrux.

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EndertheJedi
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I really dnot think that Harry could be a Horcrux primarily because Voldemort would have ahd to amke him one unintentionally wihich I dont think is possble. since A horcrux is something a dark wizard makes to contain a soul fragment than it would have to be a complicatd spell with incantationsand complex wand movements among other thing. i thik unintentionally making a horcrux would be imposslble. also if voldemort did it on purpoese than he wouldnt be trying to kill harry. but then again you have to remember that thescar woud be the horcrux not harry himself. in this case it could be a separate thing that just happens to be attached to harry.
I really cant decidew if i mthink Dumbledore is dead or not. It is obvios that the astronomy tower scene was an act but then Dumble dore pwas pretty thorroughly destroyed.
one thing i thought of is with there being nonverbal spells would it be posssble to say a spell at the same as casting ano verbla spell to mask the real spell being cast. i dont think dumbledore should come back to hhelp harry as its his destiny to defeat voldemort himself.

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Sid Meier
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AHA! Someone with worse spelling then I! Ahahahahaha!

(no offence Ender [Razz] , i get heat about my spelling sometimes [Smile] )

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EndertheJedi
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none taken. I really have good spelling in real life. Im just too lazy to edit my typing.
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Tinros
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Theory time.

Could Dumbledore have killed the old pheonix, and turned the new baby into a Horcrux? And wouldn't that make him immortal?

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KEGE
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First of all, on page 813 of the Order of the Phoenix, Voldemort tries to kill Harry. Would he kill his own horcrux?

Quote: "'I have nothing more to say to you, Potter,' he (Voldemort)said quietly. 'You have irked me too often, for too long. AVADA KEDAVRA'.

Harry had not even opened his mouth to resist. His mind was blank, his wand pointing uselessly at the floor."

Here Dumbledore arrives to save Harry using the golden wizard statue to deflect the spell.

Dumbledore calmly talks and fights with Voldemort - each time referring to him as "Tom". Then they have the following exchange:

"'There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore,' snarled Voldemort.

'You ae quite wrong,' said Dumbledore ...'Indeed, your failure to undertsand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness ---'"

Then more fighting and suddenly Voldemort disappears and "And then Harry's scar burst open. He knew he was dead: it was pain beyond imagining, pain past endurance ---"

Voldemort possesses Harry and tries to get Dumbledore to "Kill me now, Dumbledore.... If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy ...."

Harry thinks to himself that he wants Dumbledore to kill him to end the current physical pain AND to end the emotional pain because then he would be with Sirius again.

And that love of Sirius is what forces Voldemort out of Harry's body.

Then on page 826 Dumbledore explains that 15 years ago when he saw the scar upon Harry's forehead that the scar "might be the sign of a connection between you and Voldemort." And later he explains on page 828 that he had suspected that Voldemort would use the connection once he discovered it to try to possess Harry.

"'Voldemort's aim in possessing you, as he demonstrated tonight, would not have been my destruction. It would have been yours. He hoped, when he possessed you briefly a short while ago, that I would sacrifice you in the hope of killing him.'"

Later on page 843 Dumbledore tells Harry that love is a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature ... and it is the poer that Harry posseses in such quantities and Voldemort has not at all. That is what brought him to the Ministry to save Sirius and forced Voldemort out of Harry's body because he coul dnot bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests.

So how then could Harry be the horcrux?

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Zarex
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We know that voldemort has more than one horcrux. If I knew that there was only one person in the world capable of killing me, but to kill him I would have to die, I might be a bit nervous. But if I had a few extra lives handy, I'd kill them in a heart beat.

So he is sacrificing one horcrux, in order to ensure the survival of the others, and more importantly; himself.

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CRash
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If Harry (or scar) is a Horcrux...does Voldemort actually know that Harry's an accidental Horcrux?
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KEGE
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There is no indication in the books so far that anyone can make a horcrux accidentally. If use of the killing spells could result in the creation of accidental horcruxes then presumably Voldemort would have created lots more horcruxes as would numerous Death Eaters. i.e., Voldemort didn't create horcruxes in killing his father and grandparents(that would be three right there)

I believe the implication is that a specific spell must be performed after the killing to create the horcrux. Dumbledore suggests that the snake Nagini was Voldemort's first use of a living creature for a Horcrux and that occured well after Voldemort's attack on baby Harry.

R.A.B. is surely Regulus Alphard Black. Alphard was Sirius's uncle who died when Sirius was 17 and left him a decent bit of gold enabling him to get his own place. (p.111 OoftheP) And Alphard's name has subsequently been wiped off The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black "Toujours Pur" tapestry seen in Grimmauld Place. Sirius tells Harry that Regulus got uncomfortable about some of the stuff he was asked to do as a death eater and tried to "resign" from Voldemort's service. But of course they killed him b/c you don't resign a death eater job.

Which would be why the writer of the note signed R.A.B. states that he will surely be dead by the time the reader (he's presuming Voldemort) reads his note stating that's he's taken the locket horcrux and intends to destroy it. Whether he succeeds or whether he's killed first and whether the heavy locket that no one could open found during the cleaning of Grimmaul Place in Order of the Phoenix is the horcrux locket, I guess we'll find out in book 7.

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LucyPevensie
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Whoa Kege. excellent deduction.
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Zarex
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Wow, I'd have to agree with Lucy.

However, I don't believe that you can accidentally create a horcrux just by killing someone. I think its the fact that Voldemort tried to kill Harry and failed. In the process, Voldemort was nearly killed due to the fact that the soul fragment he was currently inhabiting transferred to Harry's scar, I'm not sure if I think that, but it is plausible.

Voldemort probably stopped making horcruxes after he got to number seven. Remember in the memory he asked about using seven because its the most magical number.

One other preponderance of my own, A horcrux is an object that contains a fragment of one's soul. We know that dementors can suck the soul right out of a person. I'm wondering if a dementor could destroy a horcrux in the same way. Its not at all likely because, they are on his side. But I wonder if its possible.

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LucyPevensie
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excellent point about Dementors....and on the plus side for Harry, I don't think Dementors really pick sides, they just like to suck souls, and they're currently on Voldemort's "side" just because he gives them victims. They were on the "side" of the ministry because without Voldemort to provide them with victims, they could hang out at Azkaban and suck the happiness there without getting into trouble.
All Harry has to do is get close enough to a dementor to have it suck the soul from the horcrux (without it sucking his own soul)

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Tinros
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quote:
Originally posted by CRash:
If Harry (or scar) is a Horcrux...does Voldemort actually know that Harry's an accidental Horcrux?

I don't think you can split your soul and not know it. I've heard it's VERY painful. On the other hand, if he knows where each bit of his soul is simply because it's his soul, I would think he'd know that one had gotten stolen and was (probably) at Grimmauld place.
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Javert
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Well, after Voldemort failed at killing baby Harry, wasn't his body destroyed? So, unless the magic to create a horcrux is done before the actual killing required for it, Voldemort wouldn't have been able to do it. He was only a weak dark spirit and couldn't do anything but enter the bodies of other living things.
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KEGE
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HPB page 498 Professor Slughorn tells Tom Riddle:
"'By an act of evil -- the supreme act of evil. Killing rips the soul apart.The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use hte damage to his advantage: He would encase the torn portion --'

'Encase? But how --?'

'There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know' said Slughorn, shaking his head like an old elephant bothered by mosquitoes. 'Do I look as though I have tried it -- do I look like a killer?'"

So a specific spell has to be used to encase the torn part of the soul in the Horcrux.

Also page 506 Dumbledore tells Harry "'However, if my calculations are correct, Voldemort was still at least on Horcrux short of his goal of six when he entered your parents' house with the intention of killing you.

'He seems to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths. You would have been that. He believed that in killing you, he was destroying the danger the prophecy had outlined. He believed he was making himself invincible. I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death.'

'As we know, he failed. After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man, and it might have occured to him to turn her into his last Horcrux. She underlines the Slytherin connection, which enchances Lord Voldemort's mystique; I think he is perhaps as fond of her as he can be of anything...'"

So Nagini is #6 part of the soul and #7 lives in Voldemort.

On page 507 Harry asks "'Does Voldemort know when a Horcrux is destroyed, sir? Can he feel it?' Harry asked, ignoring the portraits.
'A very interesting question, Harry. I believe not. I believe that Voldemort is now so immersed in evil, and the crucial parts of himself have been detached for so long, he does not feel as we do. Perhaps, at the point of death, he might be aware of his loss .. but he was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy. When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold.'"

So, no he doesn't know where these bits of his soul are anymore.

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CRash
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Horcrux Possibilities (rambling)
Okay, a couple of possibilities I see that would allow Harry to be one of Voldemort's seven Horcruxes... I don't know if they're that plausible...

So we know for sure about these 4 Horcruxes: diary, ring, locket (and of course Voldy's original fragment inside himself). We also have speculations on: Hufflepuff's cup, Nagini, Harry, or something of Ravenclaw's for the remaining 3.

Scenario 1: Nagini is not a Horcrux.
I really don't know about this. I mean, Nagini has acted quite non-snakelike before (attack on Mr. Weasley), but does that mean she's a Horcrux?
Page 506: "and it might have occured to him to turn [Nagini] into his last Horcrux."
So Dumbledore believes she is, but doesn't know for certain. Still, I think Dumbledore has pretty good judgement, so right now I think this scenario is unlikely.

Scenario 2: There is no Ravenclaw artifact.
One of the Horcruxes Dumbledore speculated on was a trophy collected by Voldemort of Ravenclaw's. However, there was no evidence to support that Voldemort had ever discovered such an artifact. Therefore, an accidental Harry Horcrux could be number 6, and Nagini could be his final attempt.
Why this scenario is unlikely: If Voldy was trying to make a Horcrux at the time he attacked
Harry, he probably already had a vessel for his soul fragment ready.

I'm still speculating on Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" from Goblet... could that be soul-related, possibly? Anyway, these are just some random thoughts I've been thinking. Don't take them too seriously.

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Princess Leah
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quote:
I'm still speculating on Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" from Goblet... could that be soul-related, possibly?
Good thinking! I'd forgotten about that little "gleam". It made no sense, plotwise, at the time- the only thing the sharing of blood meant was that Voldemorte could touch Harry without being in terrible pain. This leads to the theory that by taking Harry's blood to regain corporeal form Voldemort made an even stronger bond (or perhaps just became even more similar) with harry... maybe Harry was a horcrux and Dumbledore knew/suspected it, so when Voldemort took such a fundamental part (blood) back into himself, those two parts of his soul rejoined. What exactly that would accomplish for the Good side I'm not sure, but there are certainly advantages that could be invented by JKR that would not be at all outlandish.
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KEGE
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Can you quote the passage from Goblet so I don't have to go pull out that book too? [Smile]
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Tinros
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If Harry was a horcrux, and Voldy took his blood, thus rejoining that part of his soul, that means harry wouldn't have to kill himself to kill voldy. That's a VERY good thing for the good guys.
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sarcasticmuppet
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that would be cool, but that doesn't seem to renig the connection between Harry and Voldie--which has always been pointed out as quite odd for a curse scar.
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KEGE
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I'm sure Voldemort would have noticed that he had rejoined part of his soul back to the little soul he has left by using Harry's blood in the potion. But wouldn't you think Voldemort would have had to inject the blood directly into his body rather than it go into the big brew bath?

What other killing curse rebound scars does anyone else have in the HP universe with which to compare Harry's?

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SpEeDMaSTeR
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quote:
Originally posted by KEGE:
What other killing curse rebound scars does anyone else have in the HP universe with which to compare Harry's?

That's exactly the point. We have no basis for comparison, and so can only purely speculate as to whether or not Harry's scar or Harry himself are horcruxes.
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Zarex
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You know that when the book comes out we're all going to be proven horribly wrong. Gwahahahahaha.
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Paco_The_Insane
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If it has to be done before, then when Dumbledore said Voldemort made Nagini a horcrux couldnt have been right, because the old guy didn't hear a spell. But then again, it could have been nonverbal, whcih i doubt because voldemort was weak at the time and it was a very complex spell.
So, I could see her as the horcrux still, with Bertha Jorkins murder, so we cant really rule it out. Harry's scar probably is a horcrux, and Ravenclaw's trophy is probably in Godric's Hollow. It definetly isnt something of Gryfindor's, as Dumbledore says. This is the list:
1. Voldemort's body
X 2. The Diary
X 3. Slytherin's ring
/ 4. Slytherin's locket
5. Hufflepuff's cup
6. Harry's Scar
7. Nagini

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LucyPevensie
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well i doubt very much that frank the gardner was the murder that created a horcrux in Nagini since she was already obeying Voldemort's command at that point. More likely it was Bertha Jorkins, the one that told them about the tri-wizard tournament, or even someone before her.

Also, in HBP Dumbledore told Harry that the only remaining artifact of Gryffindor's was the sword that Harry used in book 2, but there is another artifact of his: the sorting hat. I dunno how it would be possible for the sorting hat to have been made into a horcrux.... but several times it's pointed out that it knows when danger is approaching.

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andi330
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I was reading the various responses to the is Snape evil question here on Hatrack and was reminded of a quote from an interview given by JKR on the date of the HBP release to Emerson of Mugglenet and Melissa of The Leaky Cauldron two of the most popular Harry Potter fan sites on the internet. (JKR has given both of them awards on her own website.) I needed to see the direct quote again and thought I'd post it here. The following is a direct JKR quote in response to Melissa's question, "Is Snape Evil?"

Well, okay, I'm obviously – Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it, whatever I say, and obviously, it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories.

In essence, she refuses to answer. Her reasoning, it's a spoiler. What she has to say however is interesting. She won't admit that Snape is evil, and she won't say he isn't, but what can we infer from what she has to say about the effect it will have on Harry?

Personally, I find it hard to believe that Snape is still a "good guy". Of course, I've been with Harry all along on this, I've never really believed that Snape wasn't trying to fool everyone, so maybe I've gotten sucked in. I'm sure the fact that I had a teacher who abused her power much as Snape does has influenced me. The question is, if the Harry/Snape relationship is really just as personal now as the Harry/Voldemort, can Snape truly be working on the side of good?

I don't think so. I truly believe that Snape is evil and always has been. Dumbledore himself admits, as Harry points out, that he is capable of making mistakes and that usually they are BIG mistakes. I think Dumbledore is dead, and Snape killed him.

Does this mean that redemption is no longer possible for Snape? Absolutely not. Redemption is possible for anyone up until death. I will be interested to see what happens to Draco Malfoy. He COULDN'T bring himself to kill Dumbledore and Harry remembers that and does feel somewhat sorry for Malfoy as a result. I think that's where we'll see an unexpected ally.

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TomDavidson
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quote:

The question is, if the Harry/Snape relationship is really just as personal now as the Harry/Voldemort, can Snape truly be working on the side of good?

It's as personal for Harry. The key here is that Harry is wrong.

Keep in mind that Snape spared his life.

Dumbledore is dead, Snape killed him, and Dumbledore asked him to.

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andi330
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I don't agree that Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him. [Wall Bash]

I realize that this is a popular theory among Harry Potter fans, and it was my first thought as well. However, once I read the book for the second, third, fourth and fifth times, I began to see that the idea that Dumbledore would ask Snape to kill him doesn't fit.

Avada Kedavra is a curse that requires hatred to power it (see Goblet of Fire). It's not a curse that you can work if you don't mean it. None of the Unforgivable Curses are. That's why Harry had so much trouble with the Cruciatus Curse at the end of OoP. Despite his anger, and yes even hatred for Bellatrix Lestrange, he was unable to make the curse work for any length of time because he didn't want to cause anyone that kind of pain. If the same holds true for the other two curses (you have to want to control someone's actions to work Imperius, or kill to work Avada Kedavra) then Snape had to want to kill Dumbledore in order to make the curse work.

I think that one of the reasons so many Harry Potter fans want to believe that Dumbledore's request was for Snape to kill him because Rowling's deception was so well done. Most Potter fans took Snape's actions in saving Harry during Sorcerer's Stone at face value, and were willing to overlook the underlying nastiness that is Severus Snape because we had to believe that his actions in the first book were the real Severus Snape. I admit that there have been times throughout the books when I've thought it was possible that Snape's attitude toward many of his students was for the sake of those Slytherin students whose parents were Death Eaters. His actions in this most recent book indicate otherwise.

We have no evidence that Dumbledore knew of his promise to Narcissa Malfoy before or after he made it. Nothing indicates that he suggested to Snape that he promise to commit murder if he was asked to. The hesitation before the final promise in the Unbreakable Vow does not have to indicate a reluctance to kill Dumbledore, it can just as easily show a reluctance to give up his roll as a double agent. While Dumbledore believes him to be on the side of good he is safe, whatever his actions may seem to show, because he is a spy. If he is forced to kill Dumbledore, he loses that position. If Dumbledore was told by Snape that he had been forced into making this vow shouldn't he have warned somebody? Shouldn't other members of the Order have been told that this was a possibility? It isn't only Harry who now thinks of Snape as someone who is evil, the entire Order of the Phoenix believes it. No one was even given a hint that Dumbledore and Snape had this planned.

I believe that Dumbledore's request was not for Snape to kill him, but for Snape to be the man that Dumbledore believed him to be. For nearly sixteen years Dumbledore believed in Snape's redemption. He was unwilling to even consider that Snape might be other than what he seemed. More than once Harry brought concerns about what Snape was doing to Dumbledore, and although Dumbledore listened to what Harry said, he dismisses the statements almost out of hand. They don't mesh with his idea of who Severus Snape is, and so he is unwilling to accept them. Dumbledore was not asking for either (a) his life to be spared or (b) for Snape to kill him, he was asking for Snape to prove that his trust had been well placed.

Snape didn't.

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TomDavidson
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quote:

It isn't only Harry who now thinks of Snape as someone who is evil, the entire Order of the Phoenix believes it.

I suspect that this is extremely deliberate.
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andi330
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As for the fact that Snape spared Harry's life, we have not been given any reason to believe that this is for any reaon other than what Snape himself says. Voldemort has given orders that no one is to kill Harry but himself. Voldemort might be willing to allow a change in who kills Dumbledore (he simply wants Dumbledore out of the way) but he has marked Harry as his personal kill and Snape knows he will not tolerate anyone violating that order.
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andi330
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I suspect that this is extremely deliberate.

So do I. Just not for the same reason you do. [Wink]
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Paco_The_Insane
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if the curse on dumbledore's hand was going to kill him as i believe, and he knew snape would have to kill him of the unbreakable vow he made, he would know snape had to leave anyway. also, this is why dumbledore let himself be killed, i think, because of that curse. Why he didnt tell anyone is obvious. no one can do occlumency. if they could, snape wouldnt have given harry lessons, someone who didnt hate him would. if they knew, voldemort would too.
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