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The idea behind this place keeps me coming back. Unlike most fan sites, this place by its nature allows for a variety of subjects. However, the majority of the people I have no feelings for and actually don't much like. A very few, and they don't post much, share my political beliefs; whre the majority are down right hostile. In fact, I don't believe a majority of them hold OSC's political beliefs and are downright hostile toward them.
That is where I think the disconnect happens to be between the "lurkers that leave" and those posters who stay. Many of them read OSC, read his views, and assume his forum would be filled with similar thinking people. With shock and disgust they discover that a majority of those who post are completely opposite and even offensive. So, with nowhere to go, they simply go away. I would like to leave, but Hatrack does offer the most interesting topics even if the views expressed are offensive.
To be honest, I have been contemplating an Alternative Hatrack for a while. A place where those who disagree with the general atomosphere and political leanings of Hatrack can go somewhere else and have the discussions they thought they were going to have here. The problem is that I don't have the time or the money for such a venture. I guess I could ask those who are slighted if they could do that? We could gather names of the disgruntled and offer them a new place to hang.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Tom, I don't know if that's your real name, but when someone uses an internet handle it is polite to use it instead of their name. Please edit your posts.
P.S. Occasional, OSC already pays for Ornery. It isn't just for people who don't agree with him. It's for anyone who likes their discussion more spirited.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: P.S. Occasional, OSC already pays for Ornery. It isn't just for people who don't agree with him. It's for anyone who can't be civil.
yeah. I tried to hang out there and got fed up with it quickly and caused me to do something stupid by starting *this* thread.
For the record I'm 99.44% inline with OSC's views (except for his opinion about the movie National Treasure) and think Occasional has a good point but I don't care enough to do much about it though.
Posts: 527 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:That said, we were overjoyed when he started posting here more often; I agree that the forums are a much more interesting place with him there, and would hate to see him write them off. I think it's very valuable for him to know that people like having him around
Hrm. This statement-particularly the first part-doesn't mesh at all with what I've read on Hatrack over the years and past months especially, Tom. People have often publicly not been glad he's posting more at Hatrack, and people have even occassionally been public in their expression of quite the opposite.
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That said, I don't much care for this thread. It seems to be made under the vaguely mysterious, "I'm doing a good thing...but I can't talk about it," melodrama method which is exactly that because if you can't be specific, don't talk about it.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: Tom, I don't know if that's your real name, but when someone uses an internet handle it is polite to use it instead of their name. Please edit your posts.
*bewildered* Did I miss the Netiquette lesson on this? IME, some people prefer to be addressed by their SN, some prefer to be addressed by their name (and may sign their posts with it), and some don't care.
I really don't think there's some hard-and-fast rule that has been violated here, pooka.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Some people prefer it. Some don't. Some find it creepy and stalkerish. I fall in the third category, especially where it is used to imply intimacy where there is none. It certainly underscores for me Survivor's point that there is a phoney veneer of pleasantry over hostility occuring here.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I expect it's that for the discerning reader, they now know Survivor's first and last name - which perhaps he doesn't mind people knowing (I get to know it because he gave some first rate writing critiques a few years back via e-mail from the Writer's Side), but who's to say that he wanted the rest of the internet folks to know that?
*shrugs*
Anyway - there's no hard or fast "netiquette" rules about it that I know of, rivka . . . *smile*
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I specifically used Richard's name here because a) it's also his publicly available email address, so it's hard to imagine that he keeps it a secret; and b) those people who might wonder why Survivor is so incredibly hostile to me might not wonder if they knew he was also a certain Chiu from Ornery (assuming of course that they were also regular visitors to Ornery nearly four years ago).
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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It's more like if someone comes up and grabs your hand and your shoulder at a party but you don't know them well. Some people think that's really nice. Other people think it's really creepy. It's a risk one takes going to parties. :gets out sanitizing gel:
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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But Tom was attempting to emphasize that he did know Survivor better than the casual observer might assume.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I think that pooka has been pretty accurate in her assesment of your intentions in posting that information, and yet you are actually correct in saying that I don't mind (even though I happen to know that you thought you were lying).
I also would encourage anyone interested in going over to Ornery and reading all of my comments there. I would also especially encourage you to read the posts that were made about me, both before and after I decided to leave that forum (as I had already left this forum).
And if any of you are aspiring writers or just want to improve your craft, feel free to read my posts in the writers forum. But if you aren't, then do us a favor and stay the hell out.
However, like I said, this thread isn't about anything other than what OSC is going to do about this forum. The attempt to derail the topic is expected, particularly since nobody seems to even know anything about the actual topic. But I would be lying if I said it were appreciated. I don't need more evidence of just how sick this place has become, I already know that.
If my opposition helps convince Card that this forum really is unalterably hostile to his actual fans, then that's all to the good. I just don't think it's really necessary. The rest of the forum contains plenty of evidence, thank-you0-all-ever-so-much.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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You presume too much, Survivor. I am an actual fan, and you don't speak for me. Nor is this forum "unalterably hostile" to me.
I would prefer a "phony veneer of pleasantry over hostility" to all the miserably bad mind-reading that goes on around here.
The real irony, of course, is that the most frequently voiced complaint about OSC's essays is his assigning of motives to those who disagree with his political views, many of those complaints are based on the complainer's assigning of motives to OSC. The frequency of these complaints has now caused OSC to assign motives to someone else's complaints about a website, which has now caused Survivor to assign motives to a lot of people. I'll also note that he hasn't backed this up in any way, merely made ongoing assertions that his judgments of those motives are correct.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Onery has the same problem. It isn't about "spirited debate" or lack thereof that I and others have a problem. Its the disconnect between OSC and his views vs. the actual positions of the majority of Hatrack/Onery participants. And, its not like that can change any time soon as has been demonstrated for years. This is because the attitudes have been intrenched by very protective set of powerful long time participants; who even have come to regard it openly as THEIR forum even more than Mr. Card's.
I want an alternative place with a different vocal political majority. It should have two reasons for existance. One, that fanboy and fangirls can safely go to without always getting seen as "newbies" because they honor OSC as a celebrity rather than always have some wise "intellectual" statement that they must say. Two, that the majority can discuss OSCs views more in line with what the author himself has expressed.
Like I said, it would be great if someone would step forward and help develop that kind of a forum with more time and means than I do. Or, if one exists that would be nice to know.
Edit: It would even be nice to learn how I could develop such a place with little time and means.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I'm bemused, Richard. Do you seriously think I mean to imply any intimacy with you? If anything, I'm far more used to calling you Chiu -- the handle under which you had almost all your conversations with me -- than anything else. You may as well ask why I call pooka "pooka" even when she posts as mothertree. *laugh*
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"I want an alternative place with a different vocal political majority."
Good Lord, Occasional. Do you hear yourself? You're saying that what you'd really like is a giant right-wing daisy chain that just happens to also consist of OSC fans.
The implication here is that it's not possible to like OSC unless you also agree with his politics, which is self-evidently foolish. I might ask you, for example, how you feel about state-sponsored socialism, his economic method of choice.
Were a forum to exist only for OSC fans who were economic liberals, social conservatives, and ardent defenders of the social value of some "R"-rated movies, there'd be about six people there and they'd have nothing to say to each other.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Good Lord, Occasional. Do you hear yourself? You're saying that what you'd really like is a giant right-wing daisy chain that just happens to also consist of OSC fans.
That is what I am saying. You might not like the concept as I am not surprised, but I do. And there is plenty for like-minded individuals to talk about. For your information, although not surprising because of your own pre-concieved notions, I agree with a lot of OSCs "state-sponsored socialism" as long as it was under terms that he has outlined. Its called that little understood "Christian Socialism" and is not a new idea.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Well, being the queen of lurking and rarely posting throughout the years, I have to say, TomDavidson hasn't ran me off.
I may not always agree with things said by him and/or many others-I've even gotten disgusted many times. However, disagreeing with a person doesn't make me hate a person, or even run me off.
OH, and thank you for that nice msg to all us Lurkers, Tom!
I don't post often because I have to work a lot, I have 5 kids, a marriage, a pool and yard that requires constant upkeep, a home, and I write a few articles on occassion. I can't follow every thread! The fact that Mr. Card actually makes time to respond in this forum is amazing. And yes Tom, I remember when we never saw a single post by OSC!
I don't think this site sucks now. I think it goes through cycles.
Yes, Tom has the ability to piss people off-LIKEWISE, so do many of Hatrackers!!!! He's not alone! Hell, I'm sure I pissed people off on here and on Ornery in the earlier years.
I suggest that when/if you get WAY too emotionally connected to a BBS group, to take some time off (apprx 6 months), then come back when you've emotionally disconnected from situations, topics, people.. etc. It will keep you from losing your mind! (I use to run BBS's so I've had to find a survival mechanism-escape works!) (note: most bbs's become addictive and forcing yourself to stay away, not read, not just 'check out the site' is difficult. First step: Admitting you have the addiction!)
Ok.. that's the 2 cents of the lurker.
Posts: 163 | Registered: May 1999
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Occasional, people who are primarily here to appreciate OSC can just stick to this folder. There is the small issue that they have to stay someone on topic. Which I think is just fine. I was pointing out that the last time Card tried to uplift the tone at hatrack by creating another site, he just wound up with bills for two sites. I could be wrong. Maybe the tone at hatrack improved for a while, and maybe it is still nowhere near as bad as it was. I guess I should thank my lucky stars that I wasn't shrunk into a raisin previously.
Was it really 4 years ago that Survivor left Ornery? Because I don't see how it could have been as many as 3. As for those who say we are calling for the shut down of hatrack, I rather believe the suggestion is something different, like paid participation or some other qualification process. Survivor has promulgated for me his vision of the ideal forum before, but I didn't really agree because I'm not much good with a broadsword Um, anyway I would be unlikely to present it right even if I tried. What were you proposing?
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I was just proposing a site INDEPENDENT of OSC, but with the two purposes of existance previously listed. I have personally given up changing this place and want only to found or have founded a new place. There is nothing I am asking OSC to do with his site or another. As I have said more than once, it is a matter of finding someone else who has the time and financial means to set up what I have proposed.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: And if any of you are aspiring writers or just want to improve your craft, feel free to read my posts in the writers forum. But if you aren't, then do us a favor and stay the hell out.
However, like I said, this thread isn't about anything other than what OSC is going to do about this forum. The attempt to derail the topic is expected, particularly since nobody seems to even know anything about the actual topic. But I would be lying if I said it were appreciated. I don't need more evidence of just how sick this place has become, I already know that.
If my opposition helps convince Card that this forum really is unalterably hostile to his actual fans, then that's all to the good. I just don't think it's really necessary. The rest of the forum contains plenty of evidence, thank-you0-all-ever-so-much.
Being an "actual fan" I feel the need to tell you that it's only NOW that I feel this "unalterable hostility" and it's coming from you. I even think that you being on OSC's "side" here is not a good thing for him.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Occasional, I have to thank you for explaining something that I had never understood before. It had never occurred to me, since in my mind, OSC is classified as “famous author” rather than “political commentator,” that anyone would come to his fan-site expecting to find people who agree with his political views rather than fans of his books. So when you and others talked about the site being hijacked I had no clue what you could possibly mean. But I can see where, if you expected the forum to be made up of people who agreed with OSC’s essays it must seem like it’s been taken over by folks who don’t belong. So thank you for that bit of clarification.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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The problem with Occasional's idea is that people that want to find out more about Card and perhaps find a community of others who admire his work will tend to look here. It does happen to be his official site, after all.
I notice that some people have claimed to be "actual fans" of OSC. I could claim to be an grand multipara, but that wouldn't make it so.
As for my "unalterable hostility", I don't notice those that feel it doing much to try and alter it. You can, you know. I'll leave discovery of particular methods to you. You can get a few hints from looking at my Ornery posts.
But that isn't really the point. Like I said, I'm just here to see if Card is ready to consider some serious changes in how this forum is run. Changes that would be more in line with the stated and implicit purposes of the forum. As long as I'm here, I'll advocate change, because it seems desireable to me. If it turns out that Card really wants to continue this sort of thing, I'll go away again.
Card, believe me when I say that there are many people that really do respect you and your ideas, even when we disagree with them. Not all of them want to become writers, so they would welcome a chance to have a community here. Heck, I would welcome that. If you simply don't want to put in the time to foster that community, then that's okay. But don't imagine we don't exist, okay?
I know that you have your own reasons for putting up with these forums as they currently exist. I'm not optimistic about how well they really serve your goals, but I won't despise you for trying to deal with the reality you see.
I just want to say, there are other realities, and you should trust in them more. Even though I can only speak for myself, there must be other witnesses that can affirm it.
Nature made me an enemy to you and your kind, but love has made us brothers. I hope you can believe that, and trust me even though of myself I can promise nothing.
If you choose to pursue another path, I hope that your ideals in doing so will bear true fruit. You know what humans are, and I admire your commitment to finding a way to transcend that, even if I cannot share it. If we must part ways on this, remember that it is the path you've freely chosen because of your faith. Do not become discouraged. We'll be there for you, to see you succeed or to bear you up when the path is hard.
I have no authority in this world other than this, my existence. But I do exist. I am real. Flawed? perhaps a little. Scarred? more than you know. But I am not an illusion. Nor are the things of which I speak.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote: Not all of them want to become writers, so they would welcome a chance to have a community here.
I'm not sure I understand this sentence. Are you saying that those people who want to become writers -- like, say, OlavMah or ScottR -- don't welcome the chance to have a community here?
quote: Nature made me an enemy to you and your kind, but love has made us brothers.
I'm going to try this line on my boss tomorrow. I'll let you know what happens.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I LOVE this place!!! Wouldn't trade it for anything. I'm not out of line for enjoying this debate am I?
A community is made up of individuals. Is it possible to change a community other than by either changing individuals or changing the individuals?
Posts: 270 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, Survivor.
Are you suggesting that this forum be some sort of shrine? Where we chant OSCisgreatOHM . . . OSCisgreatOHM . . . OSCisgreatOHM . . . ? And manned by Keepers of the Flame?
Don't get me wrong. I think the occasional thread like that (and we do have them) is great. But I hope that this forum is more than that. And it has been my impression that the Cards prefer that it be more than that.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I came to this site because of how much I loved Card's books. I lurked for a long time, mostly because I was only interested in news about Card and any upcoming books or projects. Then I started getting drawn into the community. I thought it was wonderful how many different ideas, opinions, and beliefs were shared amongst this community.
I have learned so much about different people's perspectives and ideas on life. Naturally this diversity creates a lot of contrasts in opinions. I have not found one person with whom I can say I agree with entirely, and I don't ever expect to either. But that is what makes Hatrack so great. I didn't come here to reaffirm all of my own opinions. I don't expect or want to read comments that perfectly mirror my own convictions in life. What would be the point of it? Instead I enjoy the interesting personalities of all the people here.
Inevitably differences are going to arise. People have offended me. I'm sure I've offended people myself. One person even stated that he looked forward to the time when people like me no longer exist. I had every right to be offended. Normally I would have been very offended, but I decided that as long as I was happy with my life, it didn't really matter to me whether he agreed with me or not. That person hasn't been around lately, and although he has never once said a kind word to me, I find that I have been missing his presence on this forum. I asked myself why I would miss this person, and I think the answer is because I'm not here to look for people that will pat me on the back or acknowledge and commend my every idea. I'm here because of all the ways this community has enlightened me by means of those disagreements and arguments.
If this site were strictly about honoring Card's every word, or talking about all the ways in which we could agree with him, I would leave in a heartbeat. I love Card and the things that he's done. I don't agree with all of his ideas, but that does not diminish my respect for him. But I would not want to be in a place that is limited to strictly praising OSC, and I don't think that's what Card wants either.
Yes, we should all try to be respectful to others. Is that always going to happen? Of course not. The truth is, anything you do is bound to offend someone. And if you're going to let a disrespectful comment drive you away from this forum, then I think you've got a lot to learn about life in the real world. Because that's reality. Leave here and you'll find the same (but probably worse) attitudes and methods of interaction in your coworkers, schoolmates, peers, religious community, political party, and even family. That's life. The sooner your realize that the better off you'll be.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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I once felt as you do, camus, but I'm worn out, which is why I won't be posting to the BFFAC anymore. And, it's sometimes the people most like me that really push my buttons.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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"That person hasn't been around lately, and although he has never once said a kind word to me, I find that I have been missing his presence on this forum."
Is it KoM? 'Cause I miss him!
"If this site were strictly about honoring Card's every word, or talking about all the ways in which we could agree with him, I would leave in a heartbeat. I love Card and the things that he's done. I don't agree with all of his ideas, but that does not diminish my respect for him. But I would not want to be in a place that is limited to strictly praising OSC, and I don't think that's what Card wants either."
Thank you for putting the thoughts that were in my head into your post. Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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It is easier to call something a straw man rather than to actually refute it, isn't it Survivor?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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UPDATE I am leaving my comments below in tact because I believe that to do other wise would be dishonest of me. What I say in the first paragraph below is completely unjustified, and I have no excuse for it. Survivor, I apologize for what I said. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Survivor, You strike me as the kind of person who I usually end up behind in the checkout line. You see a bottle of coke and start to rant to anyone who will make eye contact with you about some vague incomprehensible evil that is going on. My advice, back away from this person slowly, and refuse to make eye contact. What arrogance you have to think that Card needs your help in deciding what to do with the forums. So far, I have not seen a public proclamation from him soliciting advice.
By and large, every forum I have ever seen on any web site that allows public comment comes down to the same thing. There will be a core group of people who post often and stay for ever. There will be new people who come in from time to time who are fans of the particular subject the forum is about. Then there will be trolls the come in simply to try to start a fire. ALL of these people have opinions, and MOST of them deserve respect. Just because someone posts an opinion you don’t like, is no reason for you to call for the dismantling of a forum you have absolutely no authority over. Your recourse is to leave. You keep saying you will leave, but you keep not leaving.
My guess would be that OCS expects what goes on here. One of the things I love about this site are his essays. I tend to agree with a lot of what he says, but that’s not what make it unique. The reason his writings here are unique is that he is brutally honest. He doesn’t pull punches, and he doesn’t spend a lot of time sugar coating things. I find this extremely refreshing. My experience is that anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence that posts the way Card does knows exactly what they will be in for. Some people will hate you, some people will love you, and you must judge all equally on their merits.
posted
chuck7, I'm not a huge fan of the guy myself, but he doesn't deserve the insults. Would you please consider editing your post to tone them down or remove them? IMO, the second and third paragraphs of what you wrote adequately convey your point.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Survivor, you may want to be wary of saying " This is why I come to Hatrack, so therefore Hatrack should be like this. I don't find it quite sensible to place value on a community based solely on what it does for you. It is what it is. It may not fill your needs or meet your expectations, but that wouldn't justify changing it or taking it away from those who find it meets their needs. The only person who really has any legitimate right to say it should be one thing or another is Card himself. For the rest of us, it is what we make it. It is . . . us.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:This place attracts a large number of intelligent, literate, sensitive, and otherwise wonderful people. But most of them don't stay. And I know why. I imagine that those of you that caused them to leave, often one by one, sometimes a dozen at a time, I can hardly imagine you're utterly ignorant of why they feel unwelcome on this forum. And yet, experience tells me that at least some of you just don't realize it at all.
I argued with the Secret Liberal Cabal many times during my tenure here. But if there had been more people like Tom Davidson, I probably would've stayed longer.
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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When it was written about not seeking the mote that is in another's eye because we have a beam in our own, which comes first? Do we notice the mote only because we ourselves have a beam or do we develop a beam from looking at others motes? I'm inclined to think the latter due to the writing that if the eye is single to the glory of God, the whole body shall be filled with light. Where we turn our eye our nature follows.
Though I suppose that when I allow myself to be lead by nature, my nature dictates the direction of my eye. Anyway, that's why I try awful hard not to point up straw man arguments. Or, at least I know that when I find myself wanting to point them up I need to change direction.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Good God! Im away from hatrack for a couple months and when I come back people want to shut it down!
This is one of the cleanest most polite forums that I have ever found. To say people here are abusive and cruel to OSC is just silly. The majority here love OSC's works and admire the man. I think this whole thread is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Shut down Hatrack? sheesh...
Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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No, we're already way past condescension. Didn't you read the first post? Years past, actually.
As for Kama Con...if it was the one in Provo, I'd already dropped out by then. Not off the face of the Earth, unfortunately. I'm still around, just not on this side of Hatrack so often. Though only my posts on this thread are still here, a lot of my posts on Ornery are still there, though the earliest ones seem to be gone.
As for the straw man argument...anyone that has bothered to know me or even read my posts here knows that I don't advocate mindless conformity. What is my proposal other than a rejection of the status quo, based on my disagreement with Card on this topic? That's what makes it so funny, it would be just as valid for any of you to suggest that I'm attacking Card just the way TomD did as to suggest that I'm advocating that nobody ever be allowed to criticize him.
Actually, that would make a much better straw man, because it would double as an argument by analogy, "if it's okay for you to do this, then it was okay for TomD to do that." In fact, the parallel runs deeper than you probably know or guess.
Actually, I took a look over at the "Self Sustaining Hatrack" thread a bit ago, and I have to say that I admire the solution they came up with there. Certainly, the next time I buy a book or recommend that somebody else buys one, I'm going to use those links. But I don't think that goes far enough. For one thing, it's temporary. That thread will eventually die like any other, and nothing will have changed except for a few commercial links which allow members to contribute a little something to this site...if they know to think of them that way. Which is the other problem, making the site seem more commercial actually hurts its purpose, particularly if it seems to people that Card has no personal investment in the content or community of the forum.
Overall I think that the benefit of allowing members to contribute outweighs any negative impact, but the fact is that Card doesn't feel comfortable coming here anymore. And I can say with some confidence that he'd feel even less comfortable coming here anonymously, not just because it's somewhat against his character to do so but because people that really agree with Card about too many things aren't very welcome here.
TomD, since this sort of thing is his actual job, should understand how wrong that is more than anyone else. I won't say that he does, partly because I think I understand it pretty well myself and it isn't fair to expect everyone that does a job to have all possible insights into why that job is important. Besides, I think that all of you should be able to understand it even without it being your job. This is Card's site, he's put a lot into it. He wants to enjoy it, as well as promoting his own work. He's not selfish enough to kick us out just because he's not having fun here anymore...but I think that he should be.
For the sake of those of us who would feel a lot more comfortable here if it were the kind of place Card could enjoy, whether or not he has the time to enjoy it with us. I know he thinks we aren't many. In terms of raw percentages of the population at large, he's probably right. But enough to populate a lively forum, and fill it with diverse viewpoints, even some like mine? I say there are that many, and more.
True, I say it of myself. Only Card can perform this experiment. And it is a difficult thing, to change the course of a forum at this stage of it's evolution. It's very much like killing the old forum and starting almost from scratch, with the bloody carcass right there to remind everyone of your admitted failure.
Only someone really fond of killing would be inclined to do it, and Card isn't, despite the kinds of stories he writes. I don't really think that he will. I can't even say that I'm certain he should. I only know that I would. It is a basic truth ingrained in me from childhood, to improve your home, you have to tear it up first. I just want Card to feel at home here, even if he rarely has time.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:but because people that really agree with Card about too many things aren't very welcome here.
Stop saying this, for goodness sake.
I really agree with Card about a great many things, and I feel very welcome here.
At least qualify your statement. You don't feel that way, and you believe it is because you agree with Card about too many things. I'm sure there are others. But it's not universal.
The one thing I see in common amongst most of the objections to your posts is that you are deigning to define what it means to be a real OSC fan. ("I notice that some people have claimed to be 'actual fans' of OSC. I could claim to be an grand multipara, but that wouldn't make it so.")
You speak for exactly one OSC fan. You.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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*rotfl* Survivor, you were *not* the Richard that I was saying hi to. Kama Con, at the time, was the largest gathering of jatraqueros since Ender Con. I don't think BobNDana Con eclipsed the number of jatraqueros gathered, though it may have, we tallied it somewhere. I don't even remember if the total number of jatraqueros at Kama Con was 40 or 60 and I planned the darn thing.
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Um, anyway I would be unlikely to present it right even if I tried. What were you proposing?
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