quote: TomD, since this sort of thing is his actual job, should understand how wrong that is more than anyone else.
More relevant to this situation than my choice of career are the conversations I've had with the other people involved. You have been privy, to my knowledge, to surprisingly few of them. Rest assured that I'm fairly confident my decisions are not contrary to the wishes of the administration.
quote: Only someone really fond of killing would be inclined to do it, and Card isn't, despite the kinds of stories he writes....I only know that I would.
This is why we had that little conversation on Ornery, you'll recall.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: Ornery has a much better balance. This place is dominated by a liberal mindset.
Why does it matter? Isn't diversity of opinion a good thing?? Do you want the two places to be identical? What was the point in having them separate then?
AJ- a fiscal conservative
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote: Ornery has a much better balance. This place is dominated by a liberal mindset.
If by that you mean a tendency towards mutual respect, literacy, and a fondness for human life, I agree.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Dagonee is right. I only claim to speak for myself. I think I've been fairly clear on that point, if anyone has actually been reading my posts. The problem here is that too many of you don't realize what a strong endorsement of my opinions that is;)
More seriously, I think Card himself has clearly stated that he doesn't feel welcome here. I know other fans that have said the same, both to me and...in my presence. Such as it is.
Now, TomD seems to be claiming that Card didn't really mean any such thing, and has told him so. I frankly doubt this, but even if it is true that doesn't change my position. It just means that Card isn't going to take any action based on my posting this, so there is no need for all of you to get upset. What I think Card should do and what he actually does are often two very different things.
Really, think about this for a moment. Either I'm likely to succeed, with my posts, in persuading Card to make some radical change, or I am not. In either case, do you think that your responses to my suggestions are helping your case? If I've really got that much influence with Card, how does treating my comments with such contempt make you look in his eyes? If I have no such influence (and the truth is that I don't even claim it), then what motive do you have for treating my dissent from your opinion as though it were dangerous to you?
I think that many people have said that, and said it better, but it remains true nonetheless.
However, if one of the administrators chooses to reprimand me for this topic, then I will accept that judgement, even if I disagree with it. To do otherwise would be exactly the kind of behavior I came here to decry.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote: what motive do you have for treating my dissent from your opinion as though it were dangerous to you?
I can't speak for the other people on this thread. Perhaps some of them are indeed afraid that Card's going to take your advice and turn this place into a rubber-stamp bootlicking camp. I doubt it, though.
Survivor, I'm not threatened by you. I'm saddened by you. I think you're very sick and have found ways to enable and justify your sickness to yourself, and hope that you someday decide to confront that illness rather than glorify it. My hope is that in replying to your posts, rather than allowing them to fade into the ether, I can help you recognize that you need some assistance. I've tried discussing this in private. I've tried arguing this point with you. Sadly, neither of those things have worked.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Not being coy, by the way. I'm just not clear on it. If you ever contacted me privately, it must have been years ago, over something that people at Ornery were accusing you of having done.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
No, wait, I'm sorry. I remember that you emailed me to apologize for forcing me to admit that I'm autistic. It isn't a secret, by the way, it just isn't the way I choose to define myself. I don't consider it a disability, and you think there's something wrong with that...like there was some kind of treatment anyway. Whatever.
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posted
I've seen some bad cases of internet pms on various forums and this is hardly different. I'm not a hardcore regular here so maybe I can't appreciate the situation but it's nothing that should be taken so seriously.
I've been critical of Card before, I even suggested that he might not be entirely genuine with his political writings since they differ from his literary work to the point of being contradictory (in my opinion). Everyone here took it in stride and we had a good debate about it.
Posts: 58 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Survivor, You keep presenting your arguments in the context of how “Card feels” or what “Card thinks”. If you have a relationship with Card that makes you privy to his feelings or thoughts, please state that relationship directly. If you are going based upon some previous writings he has posted here or elsewhere, please provide the links to such postings for all to see.
If however, you are merely presenting how YOU THINK he feels, please be more specific. As it is, it looks like you are presenting your opinions in ways that you then try to falsely tie to Card’s own opinions. This is disingenuous at best.
If you are planning on claming in your next post that you have clearly stated all that all of your opinions are yours, and no one else’s, please review the fallowing quotes from YOUR posts.
“…but the fact is that Card doesn't feel comfortable coming here anymore” Please provide your source for this statement.
“And I can say with some confidence that he'd feel even less comfortable coming here anonymously…” What do you base this “confidence” on?
“This is Card's site, he's put a lot into it. He wants to enjoy it…” Again, what source are you using to determine how much “Joy” Card want’s from this site?
I have no opinion in regard to what Card does or does not want from this site. Mainly because I have no personal relationship with the man. I refuse to fall into the trap of assuming motivations and personal feelings for another person based upon the very limited relationship of fiction and an occasional forum post. So, the question is, do you have real and VALID sources for your statements regarding how Card feels, or are you simply so convinced of the rightness of your own arguments that you don’t see how Card could feel any other way?
As far as I am concerned, until you answer these questions, you are nothing but a run of the mill forum troll looking to start a fight.
Posts: 17 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:“…but the fact is that Card doesn't feel comfortable coming here anymore” Please provide your source for this statement.
To be fair, this comes from the thread on the other side about the new web site, which I won't link to.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
You can find Card's posts here. And the rumor that Card is going to ban himself is just that, a rumor, as far as I know. Clarifying that point was part of the major reason I started this thread, as you'd know if you were paying attention.
The other part has to do with my shock at the insensitivity displayed by the majority of the forum over this incident.
I'm not going to make a habit of this sort of stupidity, if anyone really wants to know what I've said they can find it pretty darn easily, after all. But for chuck's benefit:
quote:“…but the fact is that Card doesn't feel comfortable coming here anymore” Please provide your source for this statement.
Please read Card's most recent comments. They clearly indicated some measure of discomfort.
quote:What do you base this “confidence” on?
Like I said, this is my confidence, the confidence I feel when making statements of myself.
quote:Again, what source are you using to determine how much “Joy” Card want’s from this site?
This is virtually a rephrase of the first question, and it has the same answer. The only time Card expressed having a good feeling there, he was apparently being sarcastic. Or rather, I don't think that the "warm all over" feeling he mentions was joy, at any rate. I'm thinking that however much joy he wants from this site, that was less. By a lot.
Okay, so now I've done what Dagonee, for whatever reason, would not. She has her reasons, and I have mine. They differ quite a bit, and I will say that she posted on the Sustaining Hatrack thread in support of helping out. If any of you want to argue with me, why not put your posts there? I've no objection to making a small contribution to our host.
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quote:Okay, so now I've done what Dagonee, for whatever reason, would not.
What exactly have you done that I would not?
quote:She has her reasons, and I have mine. They differ quite a bit, and I will say that she posted on the Sustaining Hatrack thread in support of helping out. If any of you want to argue with me, why not put your posts there? I've no objection to making a small contribution to our host.
Small aside, I'm a guy. But even taking the gender confusion into account, I have no idea what you are saying here.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Ah crap. If you're a guy don't end your name with two e's. And no, I don't want to know why.
You didn't want to link to the posts that lead to this discussion. I don't know why not, you're posting here, after all. This thread doesn't look too flattering of these forums either. That is, by and large, not my fault. If the first page had been full of posts from people saying how terrible they felt about the problem, that would be different.
I feel terrible about the problem. That's why I posted. If you can't tell I feel crappy about what happened from every post I've made (except the one where people just were starting to make me laugh), then I'll say it outright in no uncertain terms. I feel terrible, sort of sick like a stomach flu (its not impossible I have one either, but it's activated by even thinking about what happened on this forum).
And keep in mind, I wasn't even here at the time. I haven't posted on these forums in years because I had no interest...but I didn't know things would go this far. When someone asked why I wasn't contributing to make this forum a better place all along instead of coming in here all enraged over things...it cut me. I'm one of those people that said, "eh, Card seems to like things that way here, I'll go somewhere else."
Well if Card tells me that's the case, I'm more than willing to believe him. But I'm not going to assume that he's happy with the way things have gone, not after what happened here. I don't see how anyone can assume such a thing. Various people have criticized my lack of empathy, and the truth is I don't have an abundance of the stuff.
So how come all of you have so much less?
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Survivor, I stand completely corrected. I still do not know if I agree with the idea of tearing the forums down, but I can now see the reasoning and logic behind your opinion. I would not blame Card at all if he did so. Thank you for providing the links that lead me to this.
I generally feel that public forums are a place for people to communicate openly and honestly with each other. This includes the occasional barb or criticism. However, when you deeply hurt or offend the owner and host of a particular forum, you are obligated to either leave, or post a sincere apology. Not an apology with caveats, not an apology with context. I have not read far enough to see if Tom Davidson ever did this. All I have seen so far are several half hearted attempts at being the victim and rationalizations.
So survivor, I sincerely apologize to you for the comments I made comparing you to a nut job in a checkout line. The opinion I had of you at the time was completely unjustified. All of your comments I have read are logical, and the error was mine in not putting out the effort to fully understand the context of this thread.
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You are not qualified to judge that. I, for one, would say that it is my empathy that keeps me from thinking OSC's reaction to this was entirely appropriate.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Survivor, if you haven't noticed your comments are piontless toward the people you intend to influence. OSC is not going to change or get rid fo this place. The make up and character of the posters are not going to change either. I have tried and watched for several years to see something happen. Not that I won't continue to speak my mind when I have the chance.
My advice and request still stands. A person who agrees with us and has enough time and means needs to start a seperate and distinct Forum. I can't, but would if I could. If anyone is willing you can e-mail me through the profile image.
Now, I have thought of creating a Blog. That is easier and takes less time; and can even be free. But, it just doesn't have the interaction abilities that Forums have.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Survivor, I find myself almost always in disagreement with the liberal political posts here. And I add my 2 cents very timidly in fear of what others will say.
But your posts in this tread seem to have no other motive than to give OSC a reason to leave this forum or shut it down. I can't possibly see what shutting the forum down or driving OSC off would give you other than the satisfaction of taking something from someone else and stomping on it.
Because I like the forum, your desire to shut this place down makes me feel more threatened of you than *anyone* else here. And I'm suppose to be on your side.
posted
Thank you, chuck7 (though I itch to spell your name "correctly", with a capital letter and all). I do realize that the heat of my original post and the emotionalism of some of my other posts might make me seem a bit off-kilter. Though I can accept that, it is only because I was off-kilter that I posted here at all. But I'm glad to know that someone is willing to read and consider my arguments in spite of that.
Dagonee...I can't agree with your idea of empathy only for those in the wrong. But it is probably important, given the path in life you are determined to pursue, and I do believe that there is a need for those who will stand up for the moral minority. I just can't see the need when they are in the local majority. But that's just a disagreement between us.
Occasional, there are several sites like what you suggest. Hopefully you'll recieve an invite to one or more of them after mentioning that you'd appreciate such a place. But they are limited by necessary obscurity and other factors which would not apply to this site. I can understand your belief that this forum cannot be repaired, but I don't share it. I'm a hardcore machine cultist, I suppose. Experience has taught me that there are very few things that simply cannot be repaired.
human2.0...what can I say. You're already on my bad side
Okay, but Card has already left this site for the time being. I heard a rumor that he'd banned himself from ever coming back, that's why I came and looked the situation over. I know that he loves this forum a lot, he puts an enormous amount of energy into it even when he's not posting himself. So when I heard that he'd left it and might not want to ever return, I had to investigate the reason.
Simply put, I came here because I was surprised to hear that he'd left.
And I ask you, is it my posts that are giving Card a reason to shut this forum down? No, my posts are only pointing out that he already has ample reason to do so. I didn't provide those reasons. I'm saying that he has alternatives that I believe could really work to not only save what exists here that is good but make the community florish.
I will admit, some of the posts I've seen in this thread alone have given Card additional reasons to shut this forum down. But they weren't my posts. If I've given a reason for Card to tell me that I'm saying unecessary things, then I'm willing to hear that. But I don't think I'm stampeding him into anything. If anything, the things I've posted will make it easier for him to come back, if he so desires.
True, I don't actually care whether or not he comes back, only that he feel free do do so. If nothing is changed, I'll take my leave soon enough, whether or not he comes back. If things are changed...boy, would that be awkward. I'd probably switch to a different identity or something like that. By saying that I can claim nobody knows who is or isn't me, when actually I'll probably be taking long sabbaticals from the forum after lobbying to get it changed
Whatever. I'm not really worried about how changing this forum will affect my posting here. There are other ways for me to spend my time, probably other ways I should spend my time. But I felt very strongly that some things needed to be said. My personal convictions, eh? Not so convenient for everyone else sometimes. But that's why I said I'm posting here for my own reasons, on my own behalf, and my own authority.
I'm really not Card's keeper. But something in my heart tells me that wouldn't make a good enough excuse, should I fail to follow my conscience in this.
Besides, I've felt better about making these posts than I thought. I feel a sense of peace about it. You know, like something good happened. I don't know what that could have been, maybe nothing changed. Even if something I did seemed right to someone at the time, others will say later it was wrong. But some things don't change, and I've learned to trust them.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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But yeah, now that we've reached the point where the whole incident that caused Card to leave becomes invisible, what more is there to do? Still there are newbies arriving every day hoping to ask him questions and get answers. What do we say?
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
We say the same thing we said a year ago when those same newbies eventually figured out that it wasn't always possible to conjure him just by saying his name: E-mail him and ask him.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
What started this hole thing? what great and terrible thing was said that you would feel that the solution is to kill/change hatrack? And with as many posters and lurkers here and as many long term people as their is how can you say that this is not a flourishing community?
Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote: Oh, coordinate a massive spamming campaign, that'll help things a lot.
Card's preferred form of E-mail contact involves form submission. I'm pretty sure he doesn't consider fan mail spam. And he's always been pretty good about replying.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Man, that was a pretty cool show. Wacky, but somehow just cool. At the end, I was left wondering whether his escape was real...and if so, so what?
If nothing else, this thread gave me a chance to go back and look at my Ornery days. Not all of them, a lot of the early posts have been swept into obscurity. But it was a fun trip down memory lane. I should probably send Card a note mentioning that I value the investment he's made, even though I have no use for some of the results.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Anyway, as a solution to lots of people asking Card an annoying an personally painful question, why don't we just start a thread titled "Why Card doesn't post anymore" and explain everything there?
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Cause none of us are entitled to answer that question. None of us are him, and only he knows the full reasons why he doesn't post (when he doesn't post, that is).
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
But he very clearly explained why he was leaving the forum, and it is also clearly something that was rather painful for him. Does it really seem like a good idea to suggest that people pester him about it in emails that he is obligated to check? We have his answer, and I think that it would save him quite a bit of grief if we didn't force him to reiterate it for everyone that happens to ask in the future.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
But he didn't ask us to save him. And we're not forcing him to reiterate anything. My main problem with most of what you've said throughout this thread is your clear belief that you're qualified and obligated to speak for people other than yourself.
quote:But he very clearly explained why he was leaving the forum
This is a misstatement, at best. Him saying he was leaving was a hypothetical statement. Not to say he hasn't left, just that you can't say whether he has or not, and you certainly can't say why he has or has not. That's something you seem to have trouble with.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I didn't say he asked anyone to save him. And no, he could lie to anyone that asked about why he left, if he wanted to do that.
But I still don't think that it's a good thing for people to pester him about it when he clearly stated how he felt about the whole situation.
I wouldn't say that I'm qualified to speak for anyone else, but unfortunately for me, it does seem that I'm obligated.
It is obvious that Card hasn't really left the site. Someone is still paying the bills, and all efforts to that effect notwithstanding, it isn't any of us. But he certainly isn't posting right now, and if you look at his last several posts, the reason is fairly clear. Sure, he stated it as being a possibility...it seems to have become an accomplished fact since then, though.
Don't you think?
But then again, the reason I started this thread was to find out whether or not he's really left. Of course that means that I don't really know. But in the meantime, wouldn't it be irresponsible for us to tell anyone that asks about the situation to go bother Card?
Why would that be so very wrong? I'm not going to put words in his mouth or anything. I'm thinking of just linking the relevant posts in which he explains what he was thinking when he made his decision to stop posting.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I'm sorry but I didn't read all the replies in this part of the forum but I do know the point it's trying to get out so I wanna say my two cents. If its already been said then that's great that someone agrees! Anyways, here I go. He's an author. Do you think he has time to post replies on this forum? Probably not. Yet he makes time meaning that the time comes from somewhere else. He's got a life like everyone else and its probably far more complex or busy than our sad little lives. The time he spends posting on this forum surly raises his publicity by a fraction but he obviously spends less time with his family and true friends. Or working on his current projects. Obviously he is trying to please his fans at some level cause he's not getting much credit for his appearances recently and its a shame. I can understand why'd he want to stop making frequent posts-it takes time! There's only twenty-four hours in a day and to a lot of people that is hardly enough. What I want to say is that I hope he stops posting so much because the people in his life need him more than we do. He's a great inspiration to everyone he incounters because of his great success and no doubt his faith and with all he does he's gotta need more time for himself or the things that bring joy to his life and I doubt feeding into everyone's curiosity and critisism makes him happy and jump with joy inside. I may be wrong about all of this but I believe that I'm dead on. I'm not half as busy as him and I still have to WORK to find time to post and I only post for curiosity. Blah. Anyways...that's my pennyful cents.
Posts: 112 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Indeed. That's an excellent argument against telling everyone that asks about it to go ask Card. We have Card's reasons as posted on the forum, we have the time (since we're posting here after all), and I think that we (and here I take a small liberty) as the members of the community, have some responsibility to answer such a question.
Indeed, it would make a nice opening to a thread that collected Card's thoughts (as posted on the forums) on a number of subjects. His posts being rare as they are, I think such a project would have even more value.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I hate to say it but I agree with Survivor there. I think it would be nice if someone who has the time put together a thread with a lot of OSC posts in it. Does not matter if he is gone or not, still think it's a neat idea. "The collected wisdom of OSC" type of thing.
Survivor, maybe you have time for such a large project?
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posted
I doubt that it would be any good if I were the only one contributing. I have time to start it, though.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
By the way, anyone that wants to keep up the argument over Card leaving is free to post over in this thread. I thought that the whole subject was just beginning to bore everyone, but if not I'm happy to talk about it.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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And he's always been pretty good about replying.
