posted
Due to recent events, it seems that Card will not be posting very often on this board. Since many of the people that drop by here do so with at least some interest in seeing what he thinks about various subjects, it seems appropriate to provide a way for that information to remain current and accessible.
The very first place to look is in the list of Card's recent posts. This page, as the name sugggests, contains links to all of Card's most recent posts. If you're going to ask Card a question about recent events, try checking here first.
You can also use the forum's search function in combination with Card's username or user number to search for any posts by Card that mention particular words or phrases. This is a handy way to sort through his posts, of which there are probably about a thousand remaining on the board. His early posts, like all my early posts, are casualties of software upgrades. Such is life.
If you aren't having any luck, you can ask the existing members to link to a relevent post if they remember one. They might have more luck knowing what to look for, since they might have actually seen the post you're trying to find.
As a last resort, one can use the contact form for this site to send Card (or someone) an e-mail. However, there are certain questions that Card is probably tired of answering.
One particular example is the question that this entire thread might suggest. Namely, "Why doesn't Card post here anymore?" Card would probably really appreciate it if people didn't ask about that until he decides to say something else on the subject. And you don't need to ask, since now you know.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
It's unfortunate that this has happened because him posting with us was unique. I loved interacting with my favorite author. There'll always be bad eggs in any group who admires someone who tries to bring them down in an attempt to gain personal validation of some sort, and it sucks that it had to happen here, too. Fans are a weird sort of people.
Posts: 50 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
And they'll always be people who think they can somehow read other people's minds and make bad guesses about their motivations. It sucks that that happens here, too.
posted
No, it probably wasn't. But cut me a little slack: I've put up with some very thinly veiled crap on this thread without making any other complaint at all. And if we restricted people to posting only those things which were needed, this place would be awfully quiet.
That said, I've been trying to be more direct in my criticism and observations over the last few months. I tend to approach most things of that sort sideways, and perhaps my point gets lost more often than not as a consequence.
I shall be more direct. Allow me, then, to observe that archon, with all of his 31 posts and membership since May, is of course entitled to miss interacting with his favorite author. But I do indeed question, based solely upon his extremely limited familiarity with the people on this board, his ability to accurately discern the bad eggs -- if any -- from the good, or to guess at the motivations of any of the posters here.
Leaving that aside, I'd like to encourage Survivor's attempt to index and archive as many of Card's surviving posts as possible -- and wish him luck in that endeavor; I think it'd be a worthwhile resource for many fans, especially given that forum posts are not generally preserved for posterity. Since this is likely to require a lot of rather dull trawling, it occurs to me that asking for help from some of the really passionate fans over at P-Web couldn't hurt. They might even do something like this already.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Yeah, you folks tend to be deadly dull anyway, any greater lack of conflict would result in calling this place dead, however I suspect that the motivation is the same as anybody elses, time value, his words are gold and he cannot afford to spend them for free with impunity.
It seems to me that he tends to hang out at Hatrack when he has finished a product and wants feedback or just to take his mind off work until he can get back into it.
Of course he might also want to wonder why the tone is so liberal but in small doses I am sure he can take that.
We have his Essays and get to preveiw his novels, and that is extrodinary.
posted
Anyone who honestly thinks I somehow chased Orson Scott Card off his own website(s) does the man a severe disservice, I believe.
And while I would hardly expect you to feel sorry for me -- not least because I don't feel all that bad -- I would prefer if you didn't speculate on matters about which you know next to nothing.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Yeh, Tom may be insufferable, but he has been around here for a while so I can hardly think he ran anyone off recently, they would have left long since.
BC
"Its Shake and Bake and I helped"
Posts: 1249 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Wow I went and read that mess, I am impressed, mostly because I have always found that Tom to be just this way, but I did not realize he was deliberately attacking OSC. It seems we have a critic in our midst, a frustrated individual who attacks creativity while designing shoes.
posted
It's time to lay off, people. OSC is perfectly capable of defending himself. He doesn't need a group of overzealous fans attacking Tom at every chance.
Besides, do you really want this to be the first thing new people see when they come to the forum?
Posts: 4292 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Firstly, it's pretty much entirely false to claim that Tom ran off OSC. What happened was Tom said some stuff he believed and OSC got mad at it - which has happened countless times between countless Hatrackers, usually unintentionally and for no real good reason. There's no reason to think this was anything more than that sort of disagreement.
Secondly, isn't it just speculation that this has anything to do with OSC not posting? OSC not posting is generally the norm here. There's nothing new about it. Even in the periods where he has posted with any frequency, those posts have been few and sporadic. The man has books to write... He may still be mad, or he might not be. There's certainly nothing rare about a Hatracker claiming he or she will never post here again, and then changing their mind days later.
posted
It seemed extremely obvious to me that your posts, Tom, could be offensive. But I tend to always read into that sort of thing to make sure I, myself, am not being offensive.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I bet OSC has come to accept Tom. But I would guess that it's really all of you sheep who support Tom that really saddens him.
Posts: 38 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: Firstly, it's pretty much entirely false to claim that Tom ran off OSC.
Well, let’s look at the facts…….
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card:
But Tom Davidson made it personal months ago, with prickly, nasty little posts about how I was neglecting him. He made it a project to goad me then. It didn't work. So he moved on to attacking my religious faith and now to attacking my fledgling commercial enterprise. Now he has a personal relationship with me, as he was demanding all those months ago. ……….
Well, relax. I'm certainly not banning Tom Davidson. It's obvious he has an intensely loyal following. The Hatrack community has, as I intended, a life of its own; but I'm obviously NOT a pillar of it and ...
I think I'll just ban myself and go back to never visiting this site. Then everybody will have the same relationship with me: none. And I'll get a lot more work done.
So tell me again why isn’t not Tom’s fault that Scott isn’t around? I hardly think there’s much in the way of speculation here.
Yes newbie’s will see this and wonder what is going on. But Hatrack seems to be pretty good at chasing people off if you don’t like their opinions. And yes, Scott can defend himself. But I suspect that he’d enjoy it a bit if more of his supposed fans defended him. And not to belittle the point, but he’s not coming around. So….. when someone asks why Scott isn’t posting anymore it is a fact that Tom drove him off. To bad it wasn’t the other way around.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
One tip, Survivor: As I'm sure you're aware, every once and a while the forum software is updated, rendering all links 404'd. For longevity's sake, I recommend actually quoting any posts you really want to survive in this thread, in addition to linking them.
If this thread actually follows the path you set out for it, and the peanut gallery can stay focused, I think this thread would be worth a sticky. Hopefully.
EDIT: And Jay, there's about nineteen threads rehashing the whole thing. Not only are your statements totally indefensible, but also unoriginal. Can't we go to one of the other threads with the argument?
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:But I would guess that it's really all of you sheep who support Tom that really saddens him.
You're right, we must be dumb animals who follow others blindly if we don't agree with your interpretation of what happened.
Can you people really not see that by demonizing people who disagree with you and attributing base motives to them you are acting far less collegial than anything Tom may have done?
quote:So tell me again why isn’t not Tom’s fault that Scott isn’t around? I hardly think there’s much in the way of speculation here.
Because OSC is a grown man who is responsible for his own actions. If he chooses not to post here, he is the one responsible for that, not Tom. Especially if he chooses to frame disagreement with him about this issue as "loyalty" to Tom and to attempt to force a false dichotomy on us: either we condemn Tom's method of criticizing the web site or OSC can't be a pillar of the Hatrack community.
It's not something he would let one of his characters do without having someone in the story comment on it.
quote:But Hatrack seems to be pretty good at chasing people off if you don’t like their opinions.
Please. I have some opinions that are intensely unpopular here and I haven't been chased off.
No one who attempts to conform to the basic rules of civil discourse is ever "chased off" here. Even people who are continually called on their discourtesy seem to feel comfortable sticking around.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Jay, just because someone gets mad at something you say doesn't mean you ran them off. Tom has not been any more harsh on OSC than most Hatrackers are on one another, and that really is not that harsh in comparison to what is said other places on the internet, including OSC's own articles. Even you, Jay, have said worse things to people than he has - including in your most recent post above this one.
There is no "fact" that Tom drove anyone off. The fact is that OSC got mad at criticism from Tom. If he left that was his own choice, and I'd suspect it was more than a bit of an overreaction. But, again, it's also fairly common for Hatrackers to claim they are leaving only to cool off and eventually come back. And it's also fairly common for OSC simply not to post here, because he has things to do.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
This is one of my favorite OSC posts. It is from Pop's first landmark:
quote:Posted by OrsonScottCard on July 28, 2002 12:13 AM:
"focusing on the negative things" - that's what makes good stories. If you focus on good things you did, that's bragging. If you focus on good things that happened to you, it makes us resent you, not love you <grin>. But including the bad with the good gives it drama, makes it matter. I know you weren't doing art, since you didn't make this stuff up. But you WERE doing art, because you were telling a story to an audience, and selecting what to leave in and what to leave out. And I envy the achievement - the compression, and yet the fulness. Feels like "A Life" and not just a post. Thank you for letting us read it. We already feel like we know you, because we know what you do and say (i.e., the romantic hero). But introducing past and motive etc. makes us feel that we know you far better, even though of course (it is the human tragedy) we never truly KNOW anyone at all. Yet it is thrilling and satisfying to feel that we have been brought that much closer to the impossible goal, and you gave that to us. And if that isn't the most pretentious response imaginable to an utterly unpretentious and honest selfstory then I will have to turn in my M.A. and admit to failure as a post-academic.
Tom, aren't you the one that always makes fun of people that think post count is so important?
Look, I don't believe that Card is incapable of expressing himself very clearly. And I think it's silly to pretend that he didn't express his reasons for not really participating around here.
But...he hasn't chosen to do anything more drastic than just stating his reasons and then leaving it alone.
I just surveyed a similar situation in real life, meaning done to a valuable physical property rather than an author's internet site. It saddened and rather disgusted me. I feel the desire to fix that place, just as I would like to see something done about this forum. But that would go beyond the mark. I did what I was called on to do, and I'll do more when that is needed.
For now, I think it's enough that there be a few threads on this board that are actually for Card's fans. I'm okay with this being one of them, if that happens. And if certain people want to turn it into another apology for certain persons that suggested they would leave this forum if their presence were really making Card uncomfortable here...I'd find that interesting in it's own way.
By the way, Card, you must now admit utter failure as a post-academic Don't worry, I'll be forced to post a landmark sooner or later at this rate, and it won't just be my failure as a post-academic that will be on display.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:For now, I think it's enough that there be a few threads on this board that are actually for Card's fans. I'm okay with this being one of them, if that happens. And if certain people want to turn it into another apology for certain persons that suggested they would leave this forum if their presence were really making Card uncomfortable here...I'd find that interesting in it's own way.
But what do you think about the fact that it only took 3 posts to turn this into another thread to insult people who don't treat OSC the way some people think they should?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Isn't it time to let this lie? As much as I enjoy attacking Tom , and deifying OSC , is there anything left worth saying that hasn't already been said and said and said? Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
As far as the original topic goes, I agree that some sort of archive of significant OSC posts would be a good idea. Perhaps the actual topic could be in the form of a locked sticky, and we could use a separate thread to discuss what should go into the topic. After we've decided on something, a mod can always add it to th esticky. That way we can ensure that the thread doesn't get offtrack the way this one has.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
You all are beating a dead dog. The debating over who is responsible for the potential and permanent loss over the founder of this site will not achieve anything. I.E. shut up about it and go on about your business. If something is going to happen it will happen.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Actually, I suspect debating the issue more would achieve quite a bit. I think people tend to tire of talking about stuff long before that stuff is really understood as well as it could be. It's like when a disaster occurs and politicians want to avoid discussing their mistakes, rather than learning what they can to prevent it next time. The initial yelling and arguing about something like this ends up a total waste if you just cut it off with people mad at one another, rather than following through with it and learning what is to be learned from it.
If many people are still thinking Tom ran OSC off, I think there is more to be said - because most of us post in the manner that Tom does towards other Hatrackers, and either we are all running others off in the same manner (and maybe should consider changing how we do things), or Tom should get a bit more slack.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
It took one person saying "I miss Scott" and another saying that what happened was "unfortunate" for this topic to start bristling with defensiveness over the matter.
The fact of the matter is that it only took your post to open it up to insults towards people that don't treat Card the way some people think he deserves to be treated, Dagonee. Certain other people seem to have posted most of the insults, and few of them are directed at you or those you've championed thus far.
As for Tom posting in the same manner as everyone else here posts towards someone, that is clearly not true. Look at his post count, and tell me that anyone else here posts like that (yes, we all see that you're trying very hard to measure up). Okay, that's a bit silly, but it would be overdoing it to start pulling out and analyzing his various posts. And neither I nor anyone else has ever contended that Tom ran Card off this forum by himself.
You can read that pronoun both ways, too. Card isn't the only one that's been run off this forum, and Tom isn't the only one that's been helping run people off.
Fine. Ruin my thread that is just about paying tribute to Card's participation here and providing a way for his fans to learn more about his relationship with this forum. Then talk about how nobody is running Card or his fans off the site. And claim you're not doing it, for good measure. But don't insult our intelligence by talking as if we can't see what you're doing. Why not at least try being subtle about it?
Like me. I'm subtle Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
People. The Man posted yesterday. So he hasn't banned himself. You are deluding yourselves to think he has.
And Survivor, I don't think you're subtle at all. Every post I've read of yours since the "incident" seem to try to get someone to fight with you. If Card were to read this thread, I wonder if he would shake his head and tell himself how petty we are all.
If you really wanted a thread about Card's collected posts, you wouldn't have started the thread with the words "due to recent events..." That is hardly a subtle insult.
Posts: 1209 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
*shhhhhh* everyone calm down, human is right. OSC has been posting. I don't think we should be still talking about this though. Why bring up bad blood? It's done, let's let it go. I say, if they insult you Dag just let 'em. It's people on the internet, who cares, right? my 2 cents.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote: As for Tom posting in the same manner as everyone else here posts towards someone, that is clearly not true. Look at his post count, and tell me that anyone else here posts like that.
Actually, I post considerably less often per day than a number of users, and I believe there are a couple of users who joined after I did who would technically pass my post count if you counted all their various alts. Overall, I'd say about ten or eleven people posts "like" I do, if by "like" you mean with my frequency.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Actually, I suspect debating the issue more would achieve quite a bit.
I disagree. But here's a simple exercise that'll tell you whether or not we need more arguing on this topic.
Think of an argument, then go read all the posts dedicated to this dead horse. Chances are, you'll see your argument voiced several times, and answered.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:It took one person saying "I miss Scott" and another saying that what happened was "unfortunate" for this topic to start bristling with defensiveness over the matter.
Do you read this stuff before you write about it?
The "other person" made a point of calling people "bad eggs."
quote:The fact of the matter is that it only took your post to open it up to insults towards people that don't treat Card the way some people think he deserves to be treated, Dagonee.
No, it only took archon's post to start insulting people.
quote:Certain other people seem to have posted most of the insults, and few of them are directed at you or those you've championed thus far.
The common thread in many of these posts has been:
1.) accusing a person of "chasing off" OSC, and 2.) accusing people who don't agree with 1 "sheep."
quote:Okay, that's a bit silly, but it would be overdoing it to start pulling out and analyzing his various posts. And neither I nor anyone else has ever contended that Tom ran Card off this forum by himself.
Right. You've contended that the "sheep" helped him do it.
quote:Fine. Ruin my thread that is just about paying tribute to Card's participation here and providing a way for his fans to learn more about his relationship with this forum. Then talk about how nobody is running Card or his fans off the site. And claim you're not doing it, for good measure. But don't insult our intelligence by talking as if we can't see what you're doing. Why not at least try being subtle about it?
I didn't ruin this thread. You started it off poorly, and archon and MoralDK took it upon themselves to insult me.
Further, you seem to have a poor understanding of free will. If anything I've said in this thread is "running [someone] off the site," the person who left didn't really want to be here.
Be perfectly clear on this: if someone posts revisionist history, don't accuse those who respond of "ruining" the thread. Accuse the person who claims to have wanted to start a thread to pay tribute but couldn't resist referencing a highly controversial dispute. Accuse the people who called people "bad eggs" or "sheep." But don't accuse me and expect me not to respond.
quote:Like me. I'm subtle
There's a difference between "passive aggressive" and "subtle."
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Think of an argument, then go read all the posts dedicated to this dead horse. Chances are, you'll see your argument voiced several times, and answered.
Just getting an answer to a question is not that useful, though. What you want is a complete and correct answer - and those often take a long time to figure out. And even then, if the answer doesn't solve the problem, you often need to rework the original question and approach it from another angle, until eventually the whole problem is understood and answered.
Most of the questions associated with this topic are far from being answered completely - most important of which is, how can we avoid having disagreements like this happen again?
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:most important of which is, how can we avoid having disagreements like this happen again?
I would say more important is should we avoid having disagreements like this again? Can we? Or would the cost of avoiding these disagreements be worse than the occasional disagreements?
Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Wow. Daggers out! To battle! LET IT GO! Either OSC is gone or he isnt and theres nothing we can do about. Squabbling about who's fault it is and everthing is just making a downer out of a good clean forum.
Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Most of the questions associated with this topic are far from being answered completely - most important of which is, how can we avoid having disagreements like this happen again?
Um, sorry to burst your bubble, but if the 'questions' you're referring to have anything to do with the actions, thoughts, or behaviors of human beings you can forget about ever getting a 'complete and correct' answer.
And it's not possible to live life without having disagreements. In fact, when you don't get emotional and/or irrational, disagreements are healthy and valuable forms of interaction.
If you didn't get the answer you were looking for, that doesn't mean your question wasn't answered. More than likely, you saw what you needed and didn't recognize it for what it was. People have a tendency to expect a certain response, and when they don't get it they're convinced they've been misled.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Please...for the love of god...just LET IT GO. This issue is between OSC and Tom. We don't belong in the middle (or the sides) of this, so please.... NO MORE TOPICS ABOUT THIS!!!
Thankfully it appears that OSC isn't leaving the site, the sky is not falling, and we can all sleep better at night.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
The fact that Card is willing to take a week's worth of deep breaths and then post a couple of times doesn't mitigate the kind of disrespect that's been shown towards him. I'm not crying about whether or not Card posts here, I don't actually care about that much one way or the other. As people have pointed out before, the man has better things to do. I happen to feel this a bit more strongly than some, but everyone agrees that the problem isn't whether Card actually posts here or not.
The problem is the way that some people treat him and anyone that dares to express agreement or even simple respect for the man. I can step in on that one based on my own personal convictions and based on how I've been treated here.
So, are we going to hold up a double standard now? What happened before was fine and dandy but what I'm doing now by expressing my opinion of it is wrong? Okay, how about the thread that I started here? What exactly was wrong with it? I knew that certain people would throw a hissy fit the moment they noticed it, but was there really some definite reason for them to do that?
Go ahead and think about that seriously.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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