posted
Good Heavens!!! This has gotten way out of hand. All of this debating has not improved ANYTHING. The only things I see here are insults countered by more insults. Please consider what you enjoy most about Hatrack before you try to ressurect this discussion. I guarantee that doing so will just continue to eat away at what has been left for us to salvage.
Posts: 60 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:The problem is the way that some people treat him and anyone that dares to express agreement or even simple respect for the man. I can step in on that one based on my own personal convictions and based on how I've been treated here.
The way several people have treated anyone who disagrees with you about the situation at issue here?
quote:So, are we going to hold up a double standard now? What happened before was fine and dandy but what I'm doing now by expressing my opinion of it is wrong?
Expressing your opinion about it is fine. Calling others names is not. Pretending you are occupying some sort of moral high ground is not.
And complaining about people who RESPOND to others arguments and misstating what's going on as being caused by those who disagree with you are neither OK nor honest.
quote:Okay, how about the thread that I started here? What exactly was wrong with it? I knew that certain people would throw a hissy fit the moment they noticed it, but was there really some definite reason for them to do that?
The pure audacity of stating that the someone threw a hissy fit over your starting the thread is ridiculous. Look at the third post. That's what started the argument here.
Was there a reason to speak of the "bad eggs"? To call people "sheep"?
Will you at least have the common decency to acknowledge that it's the people who agree with you about this who started the argument in this thread?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Um, sorry to burst your bubble, but if the 'questions' you're referring to have anything to do with the actions, thoughts, or behaviors of human beings you can forget about ever getting a 'complete and correct' answer.
Well, yes, you are entirely right about that. For that reason the actions, thoughts, and behaviors of human beings are never a dead horse - there is always more to be said and thought about them.
The trick, then, is doing it without insulting people...
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
My only point is that since there is always more than can be said we're left with two choices: discuss it until we all die of natural causes leaving our children to argue it further, Hatfield/McCoy style; or just drop it.
Guess which way I vote?
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Dagonee, do you find the phrase "circling the wagons" to be offensive? I was just wondering as I was using it in a post.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Did anyone read that Ender book where the kids start a riot over the Piggies (or something)? Isn't that what Survior is doing? He is the one pouring the gasoline on everyone...
If you are all going to fight, at least know why.
Posts: 1209 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Dagonee, do you find the phrase "circling the wagons" to be offensive? I was just wondering as I was using it in a post.
Not really, although it typically implies unthinking defense and may be a way to avoid dealing with the supporting arguments of a defense.
If it doesn't do either of these things, and the arguments of the defense are actually discussed, then it's not problematic.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Do you really want this to be the first thing new people see when they come to the forum?
Yep, well said Jeni. This is the most vile, bile infested forum I've ever come across -
- bye!
You have got to be kidding. I can't help but draw the conclusion that you have not come across many forums.
Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
In all fairness...if that Paul is the one I'm thinking it was, he wasn't expecting me and Card to be in the reviled minority here. What counts as vile depends a lot on what you expect to find in a place.
Look, I'm not pretending to occupy the moral high ground here. I am on the moral high ground
It isn't my fault that everyone else wasn't already standing here. But hey, come on over. It's damn fine ground.
At least you've gotten around to noticing (finally) that I'm here to express my disagreement with Card about certain subjects. I thought I was really going to have to break out the long winded speeches.
Unfortunately, I probably don't have time to be in a play. I'm pretty busy around now. But it sounds like fun.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Hah, it's my thread and I'll post if I want to.
Or maybe I'll start a new topic, one with no attempts at subtlety. It really is like making a sledgehammer self aware. In what universe would somebody who did something like that live?
quote:This is the most vile, bile infested forum I've ever come across
Okay, that was an exaggeration, but I had hoped that a strongly worded comment from a newcomer might have the desired affect most people were looking for and shut down this thread. Apparently not.
But, seriously, Jeni has a point: do you really want this to be the first thing people come across?!
Individually you might all be well-balanced intelligent people, but collectively this thread really is incredibly childish, giving off the distinct image of a group of kids bickering and ranting in a school playground.
And, yes Survivor, it is the same Paul. I'll stick to the writers' workshop forum. Honestly, Survivor, why do you bother with this particular discussion area? It really is beneath you, man. See you around the workshop...
... PS when are you going to post a fragment?! I'm dying to read some of your stuff.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
So we should pretend we're not a group of kids bickering and ranting in a school playground? It seems to me that the first thing people come across should be an honest portrayal of us. And if this is how we act, why should we want newbies to think we act otherwise?
Thus the question should not be "Is this what we want people to see when they first come here?" but rather "Is this how we want to act?" Or, perhaps more appropriately, "Can we do better?"
I'm not sure. In contrast to your average forum, I think this thread is a pretty good example of how a dispute can be handled. It should be noted that nobody had to be banned, nobody started cursing anyone else out, people mostly gave reasons for their thoughts rather than making irrational accusations, and so on. We could do better still, I'm guessing, but to expect a group without disagreements would be to expect a very boring group.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Seems like it came up again in the latest round, Tom. But then, truth is not what actually happened, but what we perceive to have happened. At least, that is how you have been winning the PR war of "recent events". And it's solid Card canon, so what can we do?
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: But then, truth is not what actually happened, but what we perceive to have happened. At least, that is how you have been winning the PR war of "recent events".
These two sentences bother me a great deal, mainly because they suggest that you completely fail to understand the situation. Drop me an email, since it's not something I'm inclined to discuss here?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Maybe pooka isn't the only one Tom. Maybe you should educate us all.
Is that the problem? Too many behind the scenes conversations? Could that be contributing to this smoldering situation?
Posts: 38 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
For the record, I don't think that respectful discussion of these events that have obviously made an impact on the forum is a bad idea. I don't have any problem with newbies seeing that. I do have a problem with people coming across this board for the first time and seeing the kind of cheap, snide remarks that were being thrown around in the first few posts of this thread. The question I posed was a (rather feeble) attempt to get Jay and Bean Counter and the like to rethink those tactics.
Posts: 4292 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Huh. I don't post much (like, at all,) but I do read quite a bit. I missed the original post, but it seems to me that this has turned out to be an awesome publicity stunt, if nothing else. I'll sign up for the mag just to see if it's going to fail, now.
As long as I'm actually talking, I have to say, I don't think Tom was out of line. He was a bit prickly and rude with how he phrased things, but assuming that was his honest opinion, you'd think Card would be glad to know about some potential flaws before he signs the papers for the shoes.
I've never been really interested in a "personal relationship" with Mr. Card, beyond one of author and reader, but I do appreciate how he is/was the only author I know who really does take the time to openly respond to fan questions and ideas.
Posts: 9 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
As much as I'll miss him posting, I think it's best since (I hope) this means he'll spend more time on whatever book he's writing so he can finish it and get back to Ender and Alvin Maker.
You take a hit now, you feel it BREAK DOWN! Makes you stay wide awake, THIS IS HOW A HEART BREAKS!!
Sorry, that was unrelated but it was the best part of the song.
Posts: 161 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
What I find absolutely funny is that this tom guy has 22373, Registered in 1999. Nice waste of your life tom. Good Job! Posts: 37 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Absolutely! I mean, it's not like in that time he got married, had a beautiful daughter, had a lot of interesting conversations with folks here, or even held down a full-time job during that time.
quote: What I find absolutely funny is that this tom guy has 22373, Registered in 1999. Nice waste of your life tom. Good Job!
Um, I guess I fail to see the humor in that. If anything, I think it's nice that people contribute a lot of their time and effort into this place. If everyone posted at the rate of three per month, it'd be a pretty slow, boring forum.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Probably some old fat guy with absolutely no life?
You do not need to have so many posts to be great. If you thing your a veteran on this site or something because you have so many posts, then your the real definition of an idiot. Not to mention the definition of stupidity “which is someone trying something over and over again and getting the same outcome” For example, trying to criticize and harass Mr. Card.
Lets look at your resume. Lets see 6 years of harassing a Sci-Fi author. Oh I am sure someone will hire you with those credentials.
Posts: 37 | Registered: Sep 2004
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And if Tom were a young, personable, adorable man with a beautiful slim young wife and a cheeky bouncing baby girl, and if he and his wife had excellent positions at the local universities, and he were to have many friends and interests to keep his life filled and content ... what would this mean to you, hiro1000? Would he then not be eligible for potshots?
(I like Tom. I know Tom in real life. Actually, we live in the same town. And, for what it's worth, I'm not quite at the empty-resume stage, myself. *amused)
I have expected Hatrackers to live up to the standard of "speak with passion, listen with respect." This never seemed to me to be inclusive of petty speculation about one another's lives.
C'mon. This place can be more than that.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Probably because that hiro guy said the word "fat," so she felt she needed to contradict him, and just switched who she meant to modify, or something.
Posts: 9 | Registered: Sep 2005
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*wondering why CT thinks slimness is such an important personal characteristic*
I don't. It is one of many qualities. (Why, do you?)
quote:*BTW, escaped from Madison and an asshole UW prof in 1996*
*wonders if they've realized yet in Madison that the sixties ENDED*
Yozhik, I am fervently delighted that you decided to leave Madison and find a more suitable home for you, never to look back. Congratulations!
Edited to add: That sounded so harsh when I reread it. What I meant to say is that it is sometimes very difficult to break out of a rut and redefine oneself as "of" another place. We all have places we hate, places that bring out the worst in us, and it sounds like Madison is one of those places for you.
So, it's great that you've left and you don't have to come back. That sounds very healthy for you.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
In fairness to Yozhik, it can be difficult to escape Madison. There are really only five roads out of town, and only one of them is generally free of traffic and construction. As that one goes for nearly thirty miles through farmland before you see another McDonald's, I'd imagine most people trying to escape that way go a bit bibbledy, as I've heard it put, from staring into the Green and wind up buying houses and voting for Progressive Dane instead.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Probably some old fat guy with absolutely no life?
You do not need to have so many posts to be great. If you thing your a veteran on this site or something because you have so many posts, then your the real definition of an idiot. Not to mention the definition of stupidity “which is someone trying something over and over again and getting the same outcome” For example, trying to criticize and harass Mr. Card.
Lets look at your resume. Lets see 6 years of harassing a Sci-Fi author. Oh I am sure someone will hire you with those credentials."
Oh, wait! Now I see the "vile, bile infestation"... I was looking for that, thanks! Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
For a thread that's been going downhill since its birth, it's now just rolling in filth, isn't it?
Posts: 973 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I should just start a topic called "For the love of all that is holy or looks good naked, DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD!".
I'm not going to talk about Tom's personal life, because that would really be getting into it. Besides, my point was the way various people have acted here.
Paul is right about some things. Next month I will have much better things to do than post on this forum every day. But it's...I'm not going to quibble over a vowel.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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I sincerely like the idea of compiling Card's posts, but again think you might not realize how much work this would actually take -- especially if you also want to record the other posts in the same threads to give his words context.
I would delete this thread, then post both here and at P-Web -- leaving out any historical backstory, either accurate or invented -- in order to recruit helpers. I think you'll get a better response that way.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Tom, do you ever worry that someone might actually read your other posts on this subject and wonder what you're trying to do?
You can't take sides and play moderator. I know that we've had this discussion before, but it bears saying. I know, I shouldn't say can't because you do it rather often, so obviously it's possible. I just don't see the point.
Now, taking your idea semi-seriously for a moment, users can already search through Card's posts if they know how. This thread was addressed to newer users who might have come here because it's the official web site of Orson Scott Card. It was also addressed to more experienced members who might remember tidbits of his conversation here. So the one group could benefit from the other, and the community here could grow.
See, moving it somewhere else or making it just an indexed, searchable database...it might lose something that way. Like, its entire point in the first place.
Obviously, the main point is that you don't like the existence of this thread for various reasons. I wouldn't blame you...except that almost all of the reasons you don't like this thread are your own fault
I could start another thread, and quite possibly I will, but it isn't like I can prevent people that have no wish for such a thread to exist from spamming it with spiteful or derogatory comments. So I'm willing to see this thread play out before I quit posting here. I'm certainly not going to delete it.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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