posted
You could just tell her that Steve is black and you're thinking about going bisexual. Regardless of whether or not you're in her will, this would appear to be a win-win situation.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I suppose I figured that after reading the bits you have posted that she has already enough ammunition for her "holy war" against your sinful and perverted ( ) lifestyle that anymore would be superfluous.
It sounds to me that she doesn't need you to give her anything to use, she will come up with whatever she wants. So what is the harm in letting her know you are happy?
But, obviously, I can only see the glimmer of a reflection off the surface of all of this and my opinion would obviously have to defer to your much more profound understanding of the situation. Afterall, you are the one living it, not I.
Hope it all turns out well. I also hope, for your grandmother's sake, that she can, at some point (whether in this life or the next) see the error of her ways and embrace you with the love my grandparents have always shown me.
Posts: 240 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Actually I don't really care about a will. They had some money after Grammy sold off her mother's Kentucky tobbaco plantation (because tobacco was of the devil) but they pretty much frittered it all away in bad investments etc.
Like I said earlier in this thread though, anything rude or over the top(even if couched in Southern terms) I say to Grammy, will get taken out on my mother, who while we don't see eye to eye is infinitely more logical than Grandma.
posted
Jexster's comment got me thinking. The problem is, that no matter how much you tell these people that you are happy, they truly believe that deep down you MUST be miserable. If they start believing you are happy it invalidates their own religion, which says that anyone living without their god is unhappy.
The funny thing is that I could turn it around on them. They genuinely think they are happy (because it is kind of a sin to not be happy) but their actions show just how miserable, and unhappy they actually are.
posted
I think you should send Grammy a nice, framed 8x10 color glossy of you and Steve for Christmas. Yes, it's passive agressive, but if it kills her, not only will you not get grief about it, but neither will your mother. And actually, if your mother gets grief about it, I'd tell her that it's her problem. She is a grown woman and should more than capable of speaking up on her own behalf. You know, something along the lines of "Mother, Anna seems to be the one you are having the problem with. If it annoys you, take it up with her and leave me out of the middle." At which point Grammy will either start annoying you and you can tell her to shove off, or she won't.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Very true, people like that just can't seem to believe that there is any joy to be found outside their incredibly egocentric microcosm. It is a shame, and hopefully someday they can change.
And what I find the most sad is that they feel the need to shove that sort of myopic view of the world and life down the throats of all around them.
Perhaps it is hypocrisy for me to say that, having served a religious mission and all. But if someone told us no we wished them a good day and really meant it, then moved on.
Posts: 240 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
The problem with the 8x10 glossy is getting Steve to actually have a picture taken. I'd kind of like a portrait of us and the dogs, but I don't even think I could get a portrait of us without the dogs out of him.
AJ, the letter I read aloud was among the most caustic pieces of writing I've ever had the displeasure of handling. It went so far beyond the pale that my jaw dropped.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Yeah, I know, I think that was part of what brought this back to the surface again. I guess I have developed a callous to what she is actually writing. Your genuine outrage was good for me. Every now and then I need to remind myself that this Isn't Normal Behavior and that there are good people out there who don't approve of it.
Letting myself lull into a false sense of normalcy is probably dangerous, because since I have seen similar traits in my Grandma and my mother (though mom isn't as bad, but has gotten progressively worse with age) I need to constantly remind myself to be on the lookout for those things in myself.
I'll try to type that most recent letter into this thread tonight for the rest of Hatrack if I get a chance.
posted
Only type it in if it helps you. Sharing the burden can be a relief, and I think it would be hard for someone to imagine what this woman gets up to on her own, unless you'd seen it firsthand.
posted
I'd be interested in seeing a copy actually. I've been wondering what these letters looked at ever since you first mentioned them.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Well I've worked it out with TomD. Since I don't have a webpage of my own, tonight when I get home from work I'm going to scan the most recent letter (front and back when necessary) in and e-mail it to him. He will post it and put the link here.
Hopefully it will be decipherable. I have a pretty decent quality scanner.
posted
Noemon, it's bizarre. Bits of gossipy chitchat about family interspersed with threats of hellfire. "Mary had a teaparty, check out the photos" followed by "and unless you repent of your ways, eternal damnation is your lot."
Bible quotes and random underlining throughout. Just bizarre.
posted
That is so bizarre. I actually think about these letters more than you might expect...they just sound so horrifyingly odd. I've actually imagined little doodles of devils gleefully poking at people as they writhe in hellfire decorating the margins.
posted
no there aren't any doodles, just a lot of underlining.
We all agree she is loony, but what do you think of someone who sends you pictures of relatives and then asks you to send them back?
I think she wants me to send them back just so she can get a letter from me and I don't want to give her that satisfaction. I haven't ever sent them back, because I don't think I should have to. Which is more rude?
posted
Well I got an even more bizzare postcard from Grandma today. In it she says "Please forgive me, I need more meekness" Heb. 6:1. Then goes on to discuss my salvation or lack thereof. (She can squeeze a lot on a postcard.)
I looked up the Bible verse and I have no idea what her point is, as far as me forgiving her goes. What specific act does she want me to forgive? It isn't her general bitchiness because that is still clearly there.
I'm in the process of scanning the letter and the postcard in and will send it to Tom shortly.
posted
Tom, I'm sending the files from STeve's e-mail since the scanner is hooked up to his computer and it is easier than messing with hotmail directly. You will see something come through with sjones_ce I don't know what size file it will be.
Steve is making me do them in black and white to make them smaller, though the audience will miss an interesting ink color change. She changes from black pen to blue pen from the first to second page, and then goes back to underline the black stuff in blue pen.
posted
Wow, this controlling matriarch thing saddens me. Man, I just can't imagine if my Grandmasand Great Grandma were any different.
My Great Granny just passed, and she was the sweetest, kindest, most accepting person I could ever hope to meet. Truly a Christian, how a Christian should be. And man, I don't know what to say, if I hadn't had. . .
Just do your best, all right? Your grandmother has no grounds for her hate letters. Ignore them and hang in there.
Posts: 767 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:It's hard to understand, I guess, unless you've actually had to deal with this situation, but some grandmothers, and mothers, and aunts, etc. are genuinely awful people who want nothing but to control every inch of their offspring's lives.
Exactly. If I tell most people about my mother and how I don't have any contact with her, they look at me like I've just announced that I smash kittens. (The fact that my religious denomination practically worships mothers doesn't help me any.) When other people think of mothers, they are usually (subconsciously, even) thinking of their ideal of nurturing and caring. Of course it seems terrible to shut that kind of a person out of your life. But my mother was more like the "other mother" in Coraline. All she cared about was control, and when she couldn't get that, she tried to destroy our lives.
I won't feel really safe from her until she's dead.
Posts: 1512 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
While meaning no offense, but assuredly causing some - Anna, your grandmother's letters make me think of the Chick tracts I parodied.
Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
wow, banna, i don't even know where to start. i have some clue what you're going through. my mother is similar, although she hasn't quite gotten to the level of your grandmother. However, i've only just begun to wade through the deceit and the manipulation and the emotional chaos. I also can't have a conversation with her without being told how i need to pray and find a church. Yohzik said:
quote:I won't feel really safe from her until she's dead.
i wish i could say the same thing. i don't necessarily fear my mother, but my two brothers and i can't get together (i'm lucky if i see one of them every other year, let alone both at once) without talking about mom and how she's screwed us up. sadly, i don't think that will change even after she's dead. i love my mother, maybe because i've been brainwashed to do so, but i resent the emotional damage i'm currently dealing with.
i admit i'm not completely up to speed on your situation, and i'm not really in a position to offer advice, but it kind of sounds like you should stop reading the letters. i can understand your wanting to keep them as evidence. i would likely do the same thing. but you can't move on if you keep going back to the same place. trying to get her to stop sending the letters would probably just make things worse, but there's no law that says you have to read them.
posted
"Anna, your grandmother's letters make me think of the Chick tracts I parodied."
YES, Ralphie, I thought the same thing.
It also brings back the question: IS the "Landover Baptist Church" site a parody, really? Because what those articles say are real for some people.
Banna, it is incredible, as you mentioned somewhere, that your grandmother peppers the letters equally with banter about embroidery skill and biblical references. It is quite something, even more so when I read the handwritten version.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Well, if the thought of burning in hell didn't make me get married to my boyfriend, the promise of a gift certificate to Red Lobster after two years sure would....
AJ, I am sorry your gramdmother is like she is, and that she persists in reminding you of it.
I have just finished reading a good book called "Controlling People: How to Recognize, Understand, and Deal with People Who Try to Control You" by Patricia Evans, who also wrote "The Verbally Abusive Relationship". I was somewhat disappointed in the "how to deal with them" part, but the description of them and their behavior was right on and very validating. She has web sites at www.patriciaevans.com and www.verbalabuse.com
posted
Hey Ralphie... she strangely reminds me of the Chick tracts too. In fact in past letters she has enclosed them for me to "leave in phone booths".
Knowing how she things a bit, what I took from that bit about the underlining November "the amish wedding month" was that we (Steve and I) should be sure and get married by next month at the latetst.
Thank you again for all your advice. I have great news. After talking it over with my live in lover (what a sex fiend!) we decided to get married. As you suggested, we eloped last weekend.
I may not have mentioned it before, because I wasn't sure if you could handle the news, but now, with God on my side, I see you can.
While I have never wanted a "frilly" wedding, I now resent the fact that she thinks I am no longer worthy of the "best" which in her mind is the frilly wedding, and that I should take the lesser "elopment" option.
Though it gives me a great excuse for not inviting her to the wedding!
Your grandmother reminds me of my mother, when she was going through her religious phase. And I agree with the people who have posted to say that it is not about religion, or genuine concern for your soul, but about being in control and being manipulative.
I won't go into detail, because I don't want to open the gates and hijack your thread, but I really can empathize A LOT. If you ever want to talk about it with someone who may know exactly how you feel, feel free to IM me if you have AIM, or to e-mail me.
posted
I posted an excerpt from the letter over on that "verbal abuse" bulletin board. It doesn't look nearly as good as Hatrack, but I'll see what they say, if anything.
posted
Random thoughts: I want to know whether the letter lives up (or down) to Noemon's expectations. --- Out of courtesy to my cousins, I didn't scan in the two pictures of them at their "tea party" but suffice to say it the idea looked like a pre-Civil War Southern ball, without quite the authentic period clothing. (Those who saw the pictures can attempt to describe further if they wish.) Most of them appeared to be wearing hoop skirts. --- That Bible verse that she quoted on the postcard. I really don't get what she was saying and I've had years to try to learn to interpret her. Most of the time she does have a point she is trying to make even if it is out in left field somewhere before she jumps to the next topic.
Here's the verse, in KJV because that is what she always quotes. Let me know if you can think of anything, that a less than rational mind might produce. Here's the entire passage The specific verse is
quote: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
posted
Actually, Anna, the postcard sounds to me like an apology. She's saying that she, personally, needs more meekness, and would like you to forgive her for harping.
Admittedly, I'm not sure what Hebrews 6 has to do with that; it's a verse that explains that God will show mercy to the deserving (and has made a promise in that regard), but that people who have been baptized and fall from grace thereafter are NOT deserving. Kind of passive-aggressive in this context, methinks.
Further, I find it odd that she describes the saved person as "carrying a great burden," then goes on to say "not saved = no burden." Presumably it's a GOOD burden?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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The letter is wack. Anna should NOT have to deal with this, and is under no obligations, but the postcard was almost touching.
I was confused by the ending, too. Did she mean it that way? That those who are saved are carrying a burden? Does she mean responsibility? Does she see her need for more meekness as a burden? I think she's fascinating, in the same way I think Katharine Hepburn is fascinating. You don't want to be related to or to live with such people, but she's fascinating.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Yeah, but the problem I guess is that I view any apology as highly suspect and merely a ploy for further manipulation attempts.
The other thing that bothers me is that these sort of people "need" me to forgive them, even if I say there is nothing to forgive. Compelled forgiveness isn't forgiveness at all. My mother is worse about this than Mamaw and she isn't anywhere near as outrageous.
I refuse to forgive and forget however, because to act like nothing has ever happened is rediculous. With a track record like Mamaw's to drop my guard for an instant would make me vulnerable. I will NOT make myself any more emotionally vulnerable than I already am to a person like this.
I don't know if there is anything to actually forgive or not. To me it depends on the woman's sanity. If she is sane I don't know that I could or should forgive with that little of an apology, everything she writes is too deliberately malicious and unmaking. If she isn't sane and just batty, then yes I can forgive her, but I then have major issues with the rest of the family for being in denial of her mental illness.,
I know the reason for forgivness (from a human standpoint)is to let something go so that it doesn't eat away at you anymore. In a real sense I am trying to do that, but in a different way than Grammy thinks is proper. Every time I share this, it loses some of its venom.
The problem is that the venom is still dangerous and I don't know what to do with the snake. I have moved on with my life so that it doesn't affect me directly or daily like it used to. But rather than "forgiving" in the classical definition, the only way I move past is by telling myself that it doesn't matter what this woman says to me, I know I have value and am loved.
Hopefully one day I will get to the point where it doesn't matter to me in the slightest. At that point I guess "forgivness" will have been reached.
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Dan that is great!
