posted
Hey ae, I disagree with 2/3's of your statement, but to each his own.
Fun movie, saw it the second time today (intend to see it many more times), and while I always liked the books better I think they did them justice.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
*breaths deeply* I just deleted everything I just wrote. Here it is again:
spoilers- naturally
Sorry about the length this is more than two cents but…
Personally, I think that cheering/applauding the characters is as valid as cheering/applauding the actors and filmmakers. It has gone on for hundreds of years and I’m sure that it will continue for many more to come.
Some questionably elements of the movie start for me with the big spotlight of Sauron’s eye, although thinking about it now, it seems to be the only way to have shown which way Sauron’s eye was fixed. Also, when Sauron ‘died’ I kept thinking ‘there’s going to be a shockwave’, and lo and behold, there was. Also, when Denethor caught on fire and was thrown out the room, he ran the entire length of the jutting-out platform in Minas Tirith and threw himself off the end, without falling, collapsing and dying, even though he was completely doused with oil. The Rohirrim, in order to look good on camera, never take the direct route, but tend to zigzag, which was a little unbelievable. Legolas’ stunt was fairly unnecessary, although very cool. It was pretty much the only useful thing Legolas got to do through the entire movie.
In the cave of the dead (does it have a proper name), there is a rather unfortunate line. The leader of the dead people has a deep booming voice which echoes. The beginning of the line is, “who disturbs…” In the Disney Movie Aladdin, the tiger head that rises out of the sand has a similar line, said in a similar voice. Hearing that jerked me right back to reality.
I don’t think Orlando Bloom is a bad actor, just inexperienced. Also, all his lines were either observation: “A diversion.” Or explanation, usually to Gimli. This means that he is fairly redundant, and thus Legolas is hard to act involved. He wasn’t brilliant in ‘Pirates of the Caribbean’, but he wasn’t completely terrible either. We shall see what he’s like in ‘Troy’.
I loved the colour in this movie (as I loved all the colour in all the movies). White, brown, faded green and fire. Any bright greens were only in flashbacks and dreams, and of course at the very end. Red was only used in fire and lava, faded green was in the uniform of the Gondorians, the dead, the old grass of the plains and the Witch King’s palace (but that was the same unearthly green as the dead). The rest of the movie was brown and white and grey, bleak and terrible. Rivendell’s leaves that were in autumn in the first movie, were dry and dead in the last.
Some of my favourite scenes were; the scene with Smeagal and Deagle (sp), the doomed birthday, although the sense of dread in that scene was awful. I loved the battle speeches, they almost convinced me to go off to almost-useless war more than once… Gandalf’s part in the movie was brilliant, as was Pippin’s and Merry’s, all characters who faded slightly in the second movie. In some ways, Pippin and Merry were more heart wrenching than Frodo and Sam. I was glad that they had a chance to shine. I had been afraid that Pippin’s song would be cheesy and out-of-place but the way that sequence was done, the reluctant start, Denethor’s eating, the fact that you never saw the slaughter, you just knew, was fabulous. I think that’s definitely one of my favourite scenes of all time. Denethor was deliciously disgusting and dispicable. I hated him, hated him, hated him. I was glad when Gandalf thwapped him, I was glad when he burnt to a crisp. I don’t know whether it was where I sat (third row right by the screen- I didn’t get there early enough), but in some scenes, especially when lying down, Faramir looked a lot like Boromir, which of course is perfect. But it was wonderful because Boromir was dead, but I kept seeing Faramir and thinking ‘there’s Boromir’ and then being sorry, because I would then realise that it was Faramir and that Boromir was dead. I loved that, because I could imagine the characters in the film looking at Faramir and seeing Boromir.
Large spiders are terrifying in the third row.
I loved the beacons, and Aragorn’s mad dash to the Golden Hall. I loved it when everyone bowed to the hobbits, and I loved the expressions on their faces at that time; all different, all perfect- nothing out of place.
I even sort-of-liked the fade to blacks at the end, although it was a little ‘when will it end’ish. The black screen did several things for me. First, it unfortunately brought me back to the movie theatre. Second it told me ‘time passed’, a useful thing. Third, it gave me time to collect my thoughts and move on to the next, completely different scene. The fade to white was very good, not only because the scenes were both more white than black, but because it told me that this was the last scene, then final-final scene, so when the door closed, I knew it was the door closing forever.
I cried. Yes, I cried, but also I laughed and giggled and gasped and hid my eyes and I smiled great beaming smiles of happiness, because that was all I could do. It is definitely one of the most beautiful films ever made. I loved it.
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I closed my eyes when Shelob made her appearance. I don't do bugs. I hate nightmares. And the two together would be horrid.
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I loved the Denethor scene becasue I hate Denethor and I admit I cheered with the rest of the audience when he was thwacked. But I really wish PJ had put in the palantir like in the book becasue for me, the way taht scene works in the book shows how Denethor was less inherently evil, than corrupted and in complete dispare, which can rather change the personality a tad. And the image of the palantir showing only two wizened old hands burning is... intense. (shudder) But it's a GOOD intense.
Posts: 866 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Finally saw it, and am I the only one here who thinks there's a hidden meaning to the Legolas/Oliphant scene? The Oliphant battle scene reminded me so much of The Empire Strikes Back (I don't remember a lot of detail about that scene in the RoTK book, and I've read it at least 5 times), except done a lot better.
All I could think is "That was put in to rub George Lucas's nose in it".
Way to show GL that effects work well if the story doesn't suck.
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posted
Don't knock on episodes 4,5 and 6! Star Wars rocks!!!!!
However, you are free to knock 1 and 2. Yeshhhhhhhh, indeed, effects are nothing without a decent script and story.
A decent love scene helps too... and the sad part is that compared to Annikin and the queed, romance-challenged RotK is freaking Gone with the Wind in THAT department!
Posts: 866 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
No, they're brothers. One I saw written in a review somewhere. Two brothers always have the same nameish thing. Example: Boromir and Faramir. Smeagol and Deagol.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
"[smeagol] had a friend called deagol" -LorR FotR
Ha! Never trust reviews. My local paper gave Master and Commander more stars than RotK... The injustice!
Posts: 866 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Aright, aright. But I still think I'm right. I looked up Deagol in the index to LotR (primary source, heh heh) and it mentioned him only in the beginning of FotR where Gandalf and Frodo are talking about how the ring came to Bilbo. And at least twice in that section Gandalf refers to Deagol as the friend, (not brother, there's no mention of them being family) of Smeagol.
I'm a loser. This little tiny twiddle is really bugging me. Perhaps I should get a life. Or, then again, perhaps I should just comb through the Appendices looking for family trees of hobbit-like creatures such as smeagol and deagol.
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posted
In the books -- which I'll admit I haven't read in over four years -- Deagol and Smeagol are cousins, IIRC.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Yup, Princess Leah's right. Never referred to as anything but friend. But then, Tolkein may have decided that they were cousins and had it put into a sourcebook later on...
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posted
I'm pretty certain that they're identified as cousins in one of the appendices or later books. It might be in the preface to The Hobbit.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Yes, I was thinking of them as cousins, too, though perhaps not first cousins. Think about it, in a small community of Stoors (? was it, or Harfoots?) living in the Anduin river valley in those days, most everyone would be third and fourth cousins once or twice removed. They shared a grandmother, though, I think, so perhaps they were first or second cousins. Definitely not brothers, or it would have been mentioned.
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posted
Teshi, I loved your review. I really need to go see it again. I was getting ferklempt just listening to the soundtrack today. The music during the beacon-lighting scene is just thrilling and gives me chills. I also just LOVE the fact that it's Renee Fleming singing all the female elvish parts. The part where Arwen appears at the end and she sings is just gorgeous. I also really really love the words to "Into the West." I imagine that they're being sung to Frodo by Sam when they're back in the Shire.
I need to see it at least two more times this week before I start school again.
posted
I'm not sure how swept away I am by RotK...
Then again, I was fairly disappointed with the theatrical TTT, and love the extended version, so I hope for a repeat emotional performance. Though I have to say, thus far, FotR seems like the best of the three.
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posted
I didn't like the Smeagol/Deagol scene as much as some people seem to have. They look like rednecks of the crochety sort who carry rifles. Nor do we see much friendship between them; they fish for a brief time, the ring appears, and suddenly they're fighting.
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posted
Well, overall what DID you guys make of the Smeagol/Deagol scene? I was very surprised that was in there. Why suddenly explain Gollum's obsession with the ring in the THIRD movie? Why wasn't that addressed in the second?
It just seemed weird to me, because that story wasn't in the third book -- so it is like they took a step back and said "oh, we better explain this better before we go on with the rest of the story.."
posted
There was never a definitive explanation of Smeagol and Deagol's relationship. I standby my logic.
Farmgirl, RotK didn't explain Gollum's obsession with the ring, that needs no explanation, it explained how Gollum got the ring and how he is a "murderer".
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posted
NFL, I guarantee you that Deagol is described by Tolkien as Smeagol's cousin, not brother.
And yes, I didn't get the point of the Deagol/Smeagol scene; I felt like they added it just to give Andy Serkis some actual screen time. It seems to me like something that should have been in the EE, especially when they moved the Houses of Healing out of the cinematic release instead.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I thought it was a good way to open RotK because it reintroduces Gollum and really focuses on his story for the first time since his skitzo episode. After doing this it moves to the Gollum/Sam/Frodo story, which I think is a really good segway. I really can't think of a better way to start the movie.
As to the Smeagol/Deagol reationship, I thought they were best friends, not necessarily brothers.
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quote:Frisco, you do know that Merry and Pippin are going to get married and have children, right?
I assume you mean that they'll adopt? I'm glad that The Shire's morality can accomodate them.
quote:Deagol is spelled like Smeagol...they're brothers
quote:No, they're brothers. One I saw written in a review somewhere. Two brothers always have the same nameish thing. Example: Boromir and Faramir. Smeagol and Deagol.
quote:There was never a definitive explanation of Smeagol and Deagol's relationship. I standby my logic.
Newfoundlogic, you're basing your belief on "some review somewhere", a couple of websites, and a theory you've put together about Tolkein's naming conventions? That seems like a...somewhat less than solid platform on which to build. By your reasoning, shouldn't Frodo and Bilbo be brothers? Similar names, after all. Same thing goes for Frodo's father, Drogo, right? What kind of family was *that*? . In any case it seems to me like a fairly minor point to be taking a stand on. Why is it important to you?
About the whole clapping business--I've never been one to clap or cheer at movies. When I was younger, I used to sneer that people were clapping at a flickering light, for god's sake, and feel plesantly smug and superior. As I've gotten older, though, I've kind of gotten over myself, and appreciate that the people behaving that way are just immersing themselves very completely in the story, and are making it an almost participatory event. It's not for me, but it doesn't bug me either. If I don't feel like being around people who are acting that way, and sometimes I don't, I just wait until the crowds have died down a bit before seeing the movie.
quote:It was ultimately an adequate movie. People project how they want to feel about it onto it -- and while it doesn't deserve all the acclaim, people like acclaiming things and probably deserve the chance to acclaim whatever the heck they want.
This I agree with completely. ROTK was okay. I'm glad I saw it--it wasn't a waste of three hours. I'll probably see the extended edition when it comes out, and I expect that someday, at some point, I'll watch all three extended editions.
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posted
I love it when the audience claps. If you're going to be involved with something, do it completely.
Smeagol and Deagol are cousins. NFL, what logic are you standing by? The naming thing? You have the wrong fantasy series.
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quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frisco, you do know that Merry and Pippin are going to get married and have children, right? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I assume you mean that they'll adopt? I'm glad that The Shire's morality can accomodate them.
Yeah, to be honest, I was worried that the Shirefolk were too rural and bigoted to accept people different from themselves. Glad to see my worries of homophobia were unfounded -- clearly hobbits are a more advanced race than man.
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posted
Frodo and Bilbo both end in "o", I don't call that even similar. Siblings always seem to have similar roots in their names in Tolkein books. I have seen it mentioned in multiple places not just a couple sites, I'm not going to post every single place where I find evidence of Smeagol and Deagol being brothers.
posted
The Fellowship of the Rings (authorized edition)
Start at the bottom of page 83 and continue on from there:
"Long after, but still very long ago, there lived by the banks of the Great River on the edge of Wilderland a clever-handed and quiet-footed little people. I guess they were of hobbit-kind; akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors . . . The most inquisitive and curious-minded . . . was . . . Smeagol . . .He had a friend called Deagol . . ."
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posted
I already addressed that point. I had said brothers are often friends and described as such, therefore there is no clear cut evidence either way.
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You are not claiming that Tolkein ever said they were brothers. You are saying Tolkein said they were friends, but based on your super-duper-naming strategy, they must also, by necessity, be brothers.
Wrong fantasy series, nfl. The explanation that brothers have similar names was in The Horse and His Boy.
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posted
I think that their names are similar to contrast them. "Deagol" means "secret" in Old English, and "smeagol" means something like "ponderer, considerer," or some such. I guess it fits with his description of being "inquisitive and curious-minded."
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posted
Let me just take this moment to say that my interest in languages and linguistics comes almost entirely from Tolkien and his supremem genius in that sort of thing that you just mentioned.
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posted
We really need a complete searchable text online, as we have with other scriptures. I understand the copyright still exists on this work, but hey, they need to get over it and realize this is IMPORTANT!!!!!
Then we could do a search on all occurrences of the word Deagol, and I'm sure it would be clear that they are friends or distant cousins.
When was the last time you referred to your brother like this, "I have this friend who...."? That makes no sense. Nobody does that in the English language.
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posted
Javert Hugo, this is definitely the only fantasy series I'm talking about. Furthermore, its not some weird naming strategy, its what Tolkein does with brothers. I've pointed out that Boromir and Faramir also have the same ending. Its pretty simple, consistent, and makes sense. Finally, no one has shown anything conclusive .
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posted
Tolkien's naming scheme for brothers is not nearly so consistent as you are trying to maintain. Also, there are vastly different cultures represented. The closest surviving culture to the proto-Stoors beside the Anduin (Smeagol's people) would be the hobbits in the Shire and in Bree. There is nothing like consistent naming of brothers in the Shire hobbits. I will give you specific examples from the geneologies when I get home and check. I don't think we know enough about the relationships of the Bree hobbits to say, for them.
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posted
I'd like to see an example where the names are like I described they're not siblings. If you do that I'll concede.
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posted
*sigh* Let me reiterate this: Deagol and Smeagol are cousins.
Not just friends. But not brothers. This is in the text, although I'm too lazy to find it. But when somebody else reads through all the appendices and prefaces to find it for me, those of you who didn't believe me will slap your foreheads and go, "Duh. Should have believed Tom."
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