posted
AJ, I think kat was more saying that if a child couldn't easily answer questions like, "Are you a boy or a girl?" they would be prone to teasing.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
fugu-- are you going to hate me if I use the old, 'Anectdotes are not data,' method?
The stories on buddybuddy.com are touching-- and in most of those cases, I can see no problem with allowing the gay couple to adopt the child because there is an established relationship with the child.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
AJ, I'm with you on the gender assignment thing. I think it would be much more healthy in the long run to support the child through all the teasing and let him/her decide growing up where he/she fits best in society. I think the chances of forcing a child into the wrong gender role are very great and potentially far more damaging than any teasing the child might get. Also, once the surgery is peformed, it is exceedingly difficult to reverse if it is found that a mistake has been made.
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posted
They also had lots of data, it was below a selection of anecdotes. And they cited the studies it came from.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote: The issue, however, is not only their lack of acceptance in society, but their lack of acceptance of themselves, which society can only take a certain amount of responsibility for.
jeniwren, I agree and disagree. I agree that gay men need to learn to accept themselves if they are ever going to be happy, well-adjusted individuals. However, all people need to learn this, too, not just gays. And I take it from your wording that we likely disagree on the "certain amount" of responsibility society should take. I think that amount is a whole hell of a lot. Sure, at some point everyone has to look at the cards they've been dealt and decide the best way to play them. But that doesn't excuse the society that stacked the deck.
Yes, it is all too easy to play the victim and wallow in self pity. Everyone needs to find their own inner worth and discover the most productive ways to express that worth. For homosexuals (and other groups, I'm sure), society must take quite a lot of responsibility for the marginalization and oppression. So much of the self-destructive aspects that are so often associated with homosexuality are a result of the self loathing that has been taught to gays by society. They are a direct result of families and other acquaintances projecting shame and disappointment on people who do not fit the stereotypes society would have them fit. I don't think it is premature to ask society to learn a bit more tolerance. Even if they don't think they are ready for it.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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I wonder if this is OSC's School Board/ANNIE issue. I mean, I'll admit I got totally wrapped around the axle over what was, ultimately, just a stupid play put on by a bunch of amateurs trying to do what they thought professionals would do. And it didn't come out of the school funds for teacher salaries or equipment. It was still wrong, but I didn't need to turn it into a crusade.
Maybe this is his big hot button issue...
When I think of it like that, I can be less disappointed in the fact that are views are so radically opposite.
Sorry to interrupt the conversation at this late date. I was just musing.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
The problem is that gays can act, on the surface, respectable, whatever that means. Act straight, cut their hair, grow their hair long if they are women. Say things like, we are just like you and still the intolerance would exist. Especially in the form of my friend is gay, but I still think that gayness is a threat, is bad, is a sin, ect. That's why the larger society has to change, in order to make things better for it as well as for this small minority (Which could be larger than one thinks) It has to happen because otherwise it's like a cancer about to destroy us all.
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posted
If the shortness of my hair is an indicator of my sexual identity, I'm going to have to have a long talk with my husband.
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Synesthesia, I think the problem is with too many gay people accepting the public stereotype of the flaming homosexual and deciding the alternative is to hide their sexuality. What the gay community needs is for more of their closeted members to come out and accept themselves. I know a guy who is desperate for a good long-term relationship but is so paranoid that his neighbors or, heaven forbid, his parents might find out he's gay he goes to great lengths to hide the fact. He practically demands that any would-be boyfriends join him in his closet to the point that he's never going to find someone with even a tiny degree of self-respect. If he were to come out he would be much more comfortable with himself, and would be an ambassador to the greater society of what a good gay man is. And I don't mean he has to fly rainbow flags from the rooftops. He would just have to live his life. Get to know his neighbors and let them know him. Have them over for brunch (if they don't come, well that's their loss). Let them see him open the car door for a boyfriend or hold his hand. He's already a good neighbor in that he keeps his house in good repair and his lawn clean and cut. And he's lived there for years now. If he came out, only the most rabid homophobes would be able to claim at this point "there goes the neighborhood".
And sure, anecdotes aren't evidence, but I don't think the majority of Americans really even has a problem with gay people anymore. And I think OSC knows this otherwise his essay wouldn't have been such a "wake-up call" to squash our progess before we bring about the wholesale collapse of civilization.
posted
argh, real life frustration. Weightlifter Bob and I have come to an amicable agreement or agreeing to disagree on a lot of subjects. I backed off an extreme amount, because I found out that while I was just having fun discussing stuff, he was taking it personally and if I'd been a guy the next thing he would have done was hit me. (Part of me says well he should be equal opportunity about it and hit me anyway if he's that uncivilized but anyway...)
So I had some ants invading my office and roaming around. Called maintenance who called the exterminator. The exterminators showed up, but of course the ants had all left in the 3 day time lag. Anyway they came in, looked around and set up sensor traps to get them if they decide to come back. The particular variety of ants I had were coming up from the gap in the floor where a steel pillar goes through my office to support the second story above me. I learned all kinds of interesting things about ants. Both guys were very nice, the one got tied down in a phone conversation regarding mice and schools and I actually ended up showing the other one, part of the quality control testing I do. It involves measuring densities, and while watching he informed me that rat poo floats which is a handy fact to file.
The one exterminator did have some sterotypically gay mannerisms and was wearing an earing. However I have several straight friends that act identically and also have earrings, so to me that is meaningless.
Anyway Weightlifter Bob came in and said something to the effect of "did you see the gay exterminators... yuck!" I told him that I got along with both of them just fine and furthermore I had no idea whether they were gay or not.
I have found out directly where a lot of Weightlifter Bob's homophobia stems from, including a lack of sexual education, and a lot of sexual mis-education during adolescence. I truly think that if someone had told Weightlifter Bob that it was ok to be gay then, he might be gay now. But instead he has this odd twisted homophobia that still surprises me.
The positive thing is that he truly does believe in sex education in the schools, because he knows that he had a lot of angst over unneccesary adolescent sexual issues. Homophobia is the one he just can't get past though.
It saddens me. I mean in Bob's case, no one is asking him to actively endorse a homosexual lifestyle. I respect his religious convictions and he knows it. But he isn't content to live and let live either, he always has to have the last word with an anti-gay jab, in a situation like this. He doesn't do it to their face, but is after the fact actually any better?
AJ
(Weightlifter Bob is actually far better off than one of the really sleazy guys around, who has no idea how bad of a name he gives even Fundamenatlist Christians. Anyway I got into an argument with the sleazy guy, because he TRULY BELIEVES and is convinced that deep down atheists or agnostics KNOW there is a God and are just totally choosing to deny the fact. Clearly he's never actually known any atheists or agnostics, or the ones he has known know he is so out to lunch that it isn't worth bringing it up.)
quote: quote: Has there ever been a thread to get to 11 pages in less than 48 hours before?
The Hug Thread and the Last Post Thread, I think.
Well, neither of the originals is around to check, but I'm fairly certain that neither hit even page 5 in the first 48 hours.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Ummm, no I think it just means that my sarcasm detector is not working properly . . . Gotta have that thing checked. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I don't have time to read the whole article, but I wanted to comment on one bit...
quote:And we all know the course this thing will follow. Anyone who opposes this edict will be branded a bigot; any schoolchild who questions the legitimacy of homosexual marriage will be expelled for "hate speech." The fanatical Left will insist that anyone who upholds the fundamental meaning that marriage has always had, everywhere, until this generation, is a "homophobe" and therefore mentally ill.
I read this article just yesterday, but it's over a week old...
quote: 2004-02-17 Teacher laments 'black day for religious freedom'
RORY LEISHMAN, London (Ontario) Free Press
In an indignant response to an outrageous ruling by the British Columbia Supreme Court, Chris Kempling of Quesnel, B.C., has declared: "It is a black day for religious freedom in Canada." That's no exaggeration.
Kempling is a high school teacher in Quesnel. He is embroiled in litigation over the decision of British Columbia College of Teachers (BCCT) to suspend his teaching licence because he expressed his honestly held views on homosexuality in an article and a series of letters to the editor in the Quesnel Cariboo Record.
Kempling appealed the BCCT ruling on the grounds that it violated his rights to freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression in Section 2 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. On Feb. 3, Mr. Justice Ronald Holmes of the British Columbia Supreme Court rejected the appeal.
Holmes acknowledged in his ruling that Kempling, "has been a BCCT member since 1980, with a long and unblemished teaching career, and a notable record of community service." In fact, despite the controversy with the BCCT, the Ministry of Health appointed Kempling to serve as the voluntary head of the Quesnel Community Health Council.
What, then, could this model citizen and teacher have written in his local newspaper to warrant suspension of his teaching licence?
Holmes explains: "The appellant consistently associated homosexuals with immorality, abnormality, perversion and promiscuity. Examples of such statements include: 'Thus my main concern with giving same-sex couples legal rights in child custody issues is due to the obvious instability and short-term nature of gay relationships. My second concern is how can children develop a concept of normal sexuality, when their prime care-givers have rejected the other gender entirely?' "
On the basis of this and other similar statements, the BCCT convicted Kempling of professional misconduct for making "discriminatory and derogatory statements against homosexuals." In his defence, Kempling submitted that only discriminatory actions, not speech, can count as unprofessional conduct within the meaning of the law.
Holmes disagreed. He pointed out that under the rubric of "discriminatory publication," Section 7 (1) of the British Columbia Human Rights Code bans the issuing of any statement that is likely to expose a group or class or persons to contempt because of their sexual orientation.
The BCCT cited no evidence of a "poisoned school environment" or specific complaints against Kempling. Regardless, Holmes concluded: "In my view, the appellant's published writings were harmful to the public school system because of their discriminatory content."
Note the general implications of this finding: Holmes implies that it's a human rights offence for anyone, not just teachers, to lament sexual promiscuity among homosexuals in a letter to the editor of a newspaper.
Yet homosexual promiscuity is a notorious fact.
Consider a report published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal Jan. 11, 2000, on the findings of a study of 861 young gay and bisexual men in the Vancouver area. The average age of these men was only 25, yet they had already had an average of almost 30 lifetime, male sexual partners.
Such evidence is of no account in a human rights proceeding. In the 1990 Keegstra case, the Supreme Court of Canada decreed that truth is not a defence against a charge of discrimination under a human rights code.
As for Kempling's right to freedom of expression under the charter, that, too, was of no account to Holmes. He stated as his view that the charter does not protect, "the appellant's right to express strictly personally held, discriminatory views with the authority of or in the capacity of a public school teacher/counsellor."
Kempling is a Christian. What about his right under Section 15 of the charter to the equal protection of the law without discrimination on the basis of religion? Holmes dismissed this argument on the specious ground that all teachers, not just those who are Christians, are required by law not to discriminate against homosexuals.
Kempling plans a further appeal. That's a forlorn hope. Former prime ministers Brian Mulroney and Jean Chretien have stacked the appeal courts with so many dogmatic gay-rights ideologues that it's practically impossible for a Christian in a case like Kempling's to get a fair hearing.
quote:Has there ever been a thread to get to 11 pages in less than 48 hours before?
Pssh. I started the Hatrack Singles Bar thread one morning, and when I got home from work, there were 12 pages of Rita grinding, Risuena drinking all the tequila, and Mae duct taped to a chair in the corner for some reason.
But then the kids started playing techno, so I shut the place down.
*does math on fingers*
I think it may have been bumped in the last six months, but damned if I'm not too lazy to find it.
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Equae, what are you talking about? Article? Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Somehow I had managed to forget that thread. Man, Rita was so out of control on it until the underaged posters took it over.
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Why has this not gotten any more press? I guess because it happened outside the US. But does anyone think we're far away from this in the US?
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I'm surprised I haven't heard of that considering I live in Canuckistan. I'm also completely shocked that this would happen. I mean, we had that whole hubbub about a teacher in TO who worked overseas for a year and wound up getting drunk with some students and having to ask them the next day if they'd had sex because she was too drunk to remember. We let her keep her liscence and we take away this person's? Makes me wonder if there isn't something more to it.
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Belle, actually, I believe that were this to happen in the US, the teacher would be reinstated. As to its imminence, well, our governmental setup allows various communities to make law independent of other communities. Look at all the counties that are "dry", or don't sell liquor on Sundays, or whatever.
posted
Yes, I do think we're far away from this in the US. In the US, teachers are allowed to say pretty much what they want, provided it is not in school, and certain basic conditions apply (not likely to endanger children and the like).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Although in some places in the U.S. homosexuals can have their teaching jobs endangered if they come out - even if they never talk about it at school. I'm talking official policy, without even attempting to pretend there's another reason for the dismissal.
My knowledge on this is several years out of date, so I don't know what the status is now.
posted
I take offense to part of the article that was published about the teacher that was punished for writing about homosexuals.
quote: Yet homosexual promiscuity is a notorious fact.
Consider a report published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal Jan. 11, 2000, on the findings of a study of 861 young gay and bisexual men in the Vancouver area. The average age of these men was only 25, yet they had already had an average of almost 30 lifetime, male sexual partners.
So at what point exactly do you become promiscuous? Is it when you have over 30 partners in a lifetime? Is it when you have more than 1? Is it even if you've messed around alot, but are still a virgin?
In the authors words, I guess I'm a little angel, despite all of the partners that I've had in my life (since I have had less than 30 partners in my lifetime).
Sorry, but seeing statements like that really piss me off (surveying a small group and making larger assumptions based on it).
In other news, a survey of phone monkeys working right now in my cube for Safeway, wish they had a faster connection through their cell phone.
Posts: 851 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote: I was thinking about something pooka said a page earlier, and still can't get my head around it: that the acceptance of homosexual marriage, by blurring sex roles, would make her less of a woman.
Tom, I think I can help you out with this one. I went to see my friend Lisa in Orlando, but she and Brendan didn't have a place to put me, so this other mutual friend, Steve, and his life partner put me up in their spare room. I knew Steve already, but had not met Michael. It was a nice bedroom, even if it was full of Steve's Barbie Doll collection (I hate Barbie). Steve and Michael teased me about not bringing Ron, since he's so hot, but it was all in fun.
When I got home the next evening, my uterus fell right out. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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That has to be the most unexpected joke I've seen on Hatrack in years. Usually I can smell 'em coming, but that took me completely by surprise.
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