quote: I mean OSC doesn't appreciate fans telling him they don't like his books, and Kristine gets defensive when people post it here. There's never an official smackdown, but she doesn't like it. There was a thread a while back that was very critical of something he wrote, and the mods wondered why people wondered why OSC never posted here. I know maintaining the site is an immediate drain (maybe not a long-term one), and that just means that criticizing OSC's books on his site kicks off the panic button for me. I want the people in charge of keeping it alive (Kristine) to feel happy feelings. We are guests in their living room.
While I don't disagree with Kat's post, I guess I find it hard to believe that someone in OSC's position wouldn't want feedback.
Feedback, if given in the proper tone, with the proper amount of respect should be seen as something good. If anything, it's a way to see anothers point of view and move on from there, using the information or not using it to make yourself better in the end.
Of course, It has to be done in a mood of respect, concern and mutual understanding.
But, that's just me.
Posts: 1481 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I agree with you as far as constructive feedback goes. "I don't like this book" isn't very constructive. What don't you like about it? What do you think did work? What would make it better in your eyes?
Also, I think it's pretty well known that OSC himself doesn't read this forum very much. So posting feedback here isn't very effective, and doesn't feel (to me) like an appropriate place. This is, like Kat said, a party in his living room, but he's out on the back porch talking with someone else, and "we're" making negative comments for his wife and kids to overhear. What good does that do?
I would think if you have true feedback, that is, with helpful comments, send him a letter. If you just want to complain, do it somewhere his family can't overhear you.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Or phrase it politely, and be specific. Mention things you DO like as well.
I like his books, but I don't love everything about every one of them. However, I don't run around critisizing him, as he is FAR more talented than I am, at least at writing.
It's easy to critisize something that you have never done. I hear people in NE complain about Pedro Martinez all the time, but people who know baseball, particularily those who have played it professionally, say he is the best in baseball. That doesn't stop people from saying he sucks every time he messes up, or does something they don't like.
This IS a fan site, and if you aren't a fan then don't post. If you are a fan, but have a problem with something in a book, discuss it in a civil fashon.
BTW, I mean this in general, not as an attack on any one person....I have seen this topic debated over and over again here, so I just thought I'd throw in my two cents this time...
posted
Perhaps, but how many people would really feel comfortable being given negative feedback, in front of audience (much less in their own living room)?
I mean, I have opinions about ssome of his work that might not be entirely complimentary, but I try to use my best verbal gymnastics to keep from expressing them here. Even though my intentions would not be malicious, it would just feel... rude. Not because I wouldn't say it in front of him if asked, but precisely because he didn't ask.
I mean, it just seems a strange mix of things: confrontational because it's 'in their living room' and also sort of talking-about-someone-behind-his-back because he probably won't see it.
Though I admit, the regular posting of his articles here does sort of lend itself to discussion. I'm not sure where that line should be, honestly.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I think OSC is a great writer. He is a wonderful storyteller and the depth and complexity of some of his stories cannot be matched. I recommend him highly to everyone I know.
posted
I don't tink his book sneed any sort of feedback or criticism at this point, because they are already beyond his reach, in a manner of speaking.
Feedback is usually a term people use when seeking to improve unpublished works. Even the most constructive of criticisms won't help something that's already out there. He can't fix it unless there's another edition or something. So why bother? Just to look smart? "Hey! Lookee! i found a mistake in blah-blah on page whatsits!"
With the opinion articles... I think if we can discuss them without being insulting, then it's probably okay.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Me too. I guess I should delete some stuff I wrote a long time ago on the Discussions about OSC side.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I don't think it's really behind his back, since we post with the knowledge that he could choose to read our words at any time or just do a search and bring up old posts. Or kacard or Geoff could read something here and casually mention it around the dinner table.
Since it's ridiculously easy to search the web and find posts people have made from 1996, I think it just makes sense that you should only posts messages you're prepared to stand behind no matter who sees them.
As for why OSC doesn't visit here much -- I can't speak for him, but Hatrack is my own favorite method of avoiding writing, and I don't do it for a living. Spider Robinson's creations spawned one of the most popular newsgroups ever, alt.callahans, and he flatly refuses to visit it because he knows in his heart he'd disappear and never write pay copy again.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Are you saying that you can only talk about OSC's work if you have good things about it? If you didn't love it, you aren't allowed to share your feelings here? I doubt that's how the Cards feel.
But I have been wrong before. Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I can understand what you are saying about not being insulting, but there's an entire forum titled "Discussions about Orson Scott Card." If he didn't intend for people to discuss his work then he wouldn't have created that forum. I also don't think he expects that every comment will be glowing in praise. I think it's an invitation to openly and honestly discuss his works.
Besides, if you're at this site, you almost certainly like more things about his work than you dislike, so criticism is unlikely to be too insulting.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote: Besides, if you're at this site, you almost certainly like more things about his work than you dislike, so criticism is unlikely to be too insulting.
posted
I don't read every thread here, and I'm on this side much more often than I am the other, but I've never noticed any chilling effect regarding criticism of OSC's work. I wouldn't blame the mods for removing posts that just slam his stuff, but I've never noticed constructive criticism being stifled.
And if you're good at finding mistakes or inconsistencies, you might end up in a future acknowledgement page... Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Kacard has explicitly stated that it's o.k. to disagree with what Mr. Card says. The idea that someone would censor those who disagree with what they write is a little...odd, to say the least. Would any of you really be able to respect Mr. Card if he advocated that belief? Do any of you really think that's proper?
You know when OSC needs to be worried? When people stop responding to his work. I think he's not afraid of pissing other people off with his tone and ideas. Given the way he writes, I would guess that it's a priority for him to be honest about the way he feels about certain things. Good for him, I say. Why would anyone think people aren't going to show him the same courtesy when talking about his work? Isn't it implicit without asking that a host is o.k. with people acting in his house as he does?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Okay, the scary thing is that this made sense to me as written the first time I read it. I imagine a book sneed to be sort of a cloth book cover.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Reminds me... I got to write to him over some points of his I objected to in a polite sort of manner... Despite shyness.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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No, but she should be. I'm thinking about getting people together to go and see Ira Glass on Friday in Fort Worth. Do you want to come? If so, e-mail me. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I recall an OSC post somewhere in which he talked about the kind of criticism that truly bothered him. If I remember correctly, he started by likening his books to his children. Once the book is finished and published "out there." Telling him about errors and flaws in it is just hurtful to him. Like you were taking shots at one of his kids.
On the other hand, he has on at least one occasion asked fans here at Hatrack for help in making a new story (one still in the writing) consistent with what's gone before. And, during that exercise if an inconsistency or problem was pointed out, he actually used it in some creative way to make the new story fit with and extend the old.
So, there's really two things to keep in mind:
- There's a time and place for it. - If he asks, that'd be a good time & place
Does anyone else remember this? Maybe I'm just thinking he said this when he never did. Or someone else said it on his behalf and now I think he said it?
Maybe I said it before and think it was brilliant so it must be something OSC said.
posted
No, that rings a bell. I think freedom of discourse trumps everything, but since this is more or less private property, my opinion doesn't count.
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Freedom of expression trumps. So why can't we tell someone so if we think they have been rude? I'm speaking in generalities, here, and not only of the most recent incident. Heavens knows I've been rude myself.
Though I think a lot of what has gone one in the Hatch Hillary thread warrants shutting the site down, on both sides IMHO. And in that atomosphere, whining about his work could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Criticisms. OSC has no illusion that everybody likes all his books equally. But he likes all his books. So perhaps a signing is not the occasion to tell him which of his books you did not care for. After all, you would hardly say to a parent you just met, "I really love all your children except Bucky. He's ugly and he smells." It might be true, but the parent does not want to hear it. (Besides, what exactly can OSC do about it? The book you didn't like has already been published.) If, on the other hand, you found a specific typographical error, internal contradiction, or historical or scientific error in a book, it would be kind of you to write a note about it and give it to him so that he has it in writing and can pass it along to the editor of the next edition.
What both he and his personal assistant Kathleen have told me in the past is that such criticisms (internal contradiction, historical or scientific error) are usually only useful between when the hardback comes out and when the paperback does, because those changes (if necessary) can be made in that paperback version. Changes are a pain, and except for unusual circumstances, there are really only two versions -- once the paperback is out, that's pretty much it for changes.
I suppose stylistic comments could be useful, because they needn't apply to a specific novel. However, since he's an award-winning best-seller-writing published author of 50+ books, and most of us are, well, fans, maybe he doesn't need our help.
posted
I'm soooo glad I have not even looked in the Hillary/Hatch thread. I really don't get why folks are so wigged about baptisms for the dead. I'm not LDS, but as religious practices go... that seems totally benign to me.
But then, to me, so does speaking in tongues and the doctrine of transubstantiation, which both seem to have cause kerfluffles of their own, historically speaking.
I usually don't mind observing that sort of religious discussion; to me it's sort of fascinatingly alien. Like watching the little red ants and the big black ants duke it out. I don't understand why they do what they do, but I still find it compelling.
P.S. I used the ant analogy to illustrate the 'otherness' I feel when I see people getting all het up about things that I frankly don't understand why anyone would get het up about, not to belittle people of religious feeling (who I can admit that I genuinely envy).
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Having said all that, I do have one teeny tiny criticism.
I've noticed over the years a distinct tendency in OSC's writing to never (not once) refer to me.
And while it might be expected in some of his early -- need I say "less mature" -- offerings, I find it shocking that he persists in this shocking omission right up until the present day.
Now sure, you're saying to yourself, he had a contest and it was won by Papa Moose, and he's even asked for assistance on some things and mentioned every person who actually came through for him at that time. So perhaps it's my own fault for not going to EnderCon or not providing some feedback.
But you'd be wrong.
You see, OSC writes about me all the time. He just never uses my name. And that's just plain irksome. I think he's even doing it on purpose.
I read his stuff and I see myself ALL OVER it. My mechanical eyes. My brilliance in tactical warfare. My ability to summon shapes out of rocks. But does he ever once say "oh, that's Bob?" No!!!
So, please take this minor quibble as the tiny speck of sand that it is. An irritant from which a pearl may someday form. If only he would recognize who and what he's been writing about all these years and give me my due.
posted
I stopped keeping up after the third page . . . I stop keeping up with most debates after the third page . . . but I didn't see too much that was really awful in those three pages.
(Not that I didn't see anything objectionable, because I did, but that I didn't see so much of it that I would think Hatrack should be shut down for it.)
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Bob, I know how you feel. Now, I haven't the posting record you do, but I did drive ALL night, from Missouri to South Carolina, to attend his writing workshop one summer. (I fell asleep during one of lectures because I was driving all night long and that was embarrassing, but I apologized to him whilst he signed a book.)
I DID go to EndCon. I bought two T-shirts and countless books.
I traveled a number of hours to attend a book signing after teaching all day long. Then, while we were standing in line I overheard some people wondering out loud about OSC and his life and I answered all their questions about his kids, and early life and eating habits, so they wouldn't bore him with those details and he still fails to recognize be at the next book signing.
I mean, I have a picture with him and he's got his arm around me! You think he'd remember, but I still have yet to be remembered. It's not like he meets thousands of people a year.
So, I'll just have to follow him around some more. I was there when Papa Moose won the trivia game. I was pleased to see his name in The Crystal City.
Oh, and OSC asked for help with Shadow Puppets. I still have the exerpt downloaded on my computer.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Bob- I've noticed your name mentioned on several occasions. I'm sure you'll recognize it once you know he's trying to be subtle, subliminal even, by spelling your name backwards.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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I think you are correct about the nature and necessity of feedback. I also tend to agree that the communication of feedback if it is to be constructive should be couched in certain terms, "buttered" as it were. But, I also agree with the folks who point out the "living room" nature of this forum. In that context - given the sheer volume of off-the-cuff posts made in that "living room", I would think it safe to assume that most criticisms made are conditioned on fandom. In other words, burying criticism within a spouting of adulation would seem unnecessary, here. An exercise in parlorship nicety?
posted
Oh great, once again I am generating publicity for threads specifically because I don't like them. I guess this is why they say "no such thing as bad publicity".
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Utah just made a general comment on the book. I don't see harm done. So what? He didn't like the book. Oh well. It was done in a confessions thread. Give'm a break. I read the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan, but that doesn't mean I liked every book that has been written so far. There are people here who will criticize others left and right to a very strong degree, but somehow Utah is wrong for a light hearted comment?
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Card's always pissed off about something or bordering on boiling-over pissed-offedness about something, even if it's something innocuous to the masses - a dire spotlight of perceived uncivility with a grand heaping of disincongruity will shine.
posted
Tell you what. He can have my job. I'm in the Navy, and am grossly underpaid. In the civilian market someone with my job gets paid about $80,000 a year......starting pay. I'm lucky to reach $20,000. Out of that about 30% is taken out for taxes. I have a job that is protested (nuclear power). I am involved in a war that is under vast scrutinee, and is not supported by a majority of the public. We also seem to not be needed as I guess most Americans seem to think they have it sooo bad living in the USA. I still wonder why they haven't left.
For the war statement. I was on the USS Carl Vinson when 9/11 happened. Yes, I was involved. We were the first to start dropping bombs.
Due to the lack of job security in the civilian market I am forced to reenlist again. I have a job. It may not pay much, but I can live on what I make. There are others of us out there that can't. The pay does not bode well for those with families. I do know sailors/soldiers who have to use food stamps.
Due to operational commitments I have been home for Christmas once in the last 5 years, and only once for Easter. I celebrated a birthday in Boot Camp. I see my parents (or any of my family) twice a year. In fact, I use up so little of my leave that I am forced to go on leave before the end of the fiscal year, or lose some of the days accumulated.
Medical and dental may be paid for, but you get what YOU pay for. In other words it sucks.
I hope he's happy in his writing. I sincerely do. And one day I hope to do what I want to do. I just can't do it now. I need a security blanket called a pension check to help me if I fail due to a poor job market.
If ya think I is askin fer sympathy, then forget it. I just wanted to put this out.
[ April 20, 2004, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Stan the man ]
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Not a bad idea. It's almost time to go to sleep. I have to work 2nd shift in a locked shift (7 days no days off). Yeah! Testing our equipment is finally going to happen. Sheesh, been waitin a month for this (a month of locked shift). If testing is sat, then we go back to normal. anyway, I have to smoke outside the house. cya
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: I find it hard to believe that someone in OSC's position wouldn't want feedback
There have been many times when he has put out manuscripts, or sections thereof and asked for feedback on them. I'm certain it never bothers him when we give feedback that is asked for. But if he doesn't ask for our feedback or critiques, I think we should keep our traps shut. Let's keep in mind, he's the professional writer, whereas the rest of us are merely internet users with too much time on our hands.
"Hello, I am George Carlin and I am a professional comedian, as opposed to the assholes you run into at work all day long" -George Carlin
Posts: 2532 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I like to be polite to people who invite me into their living room. However, if you invite me into your living room to meet with other people to discuss your works, and then try to tell me I can't say anything bad about those works in the course of the discussion, I'm going to feel mistreated.
Let's not confuse criticism with "helping" OSC though. I doubt much that is said on this forum will actually change how OSC writes. The reason we criticize his stuff is because criticism is a natural part of discussion of anything, and we find it interesting to share truthful opinions. OSC may not be happy when people don't like his works, but I don't think he can fairly expect people to hide their opinions in open forum discussions about them. Similarly, if he had a forum for discussions about his kids, he should not be surprised or offended if some negatives opinions show up.
It'd be different if I just came up to him and said it to his face, without reason. But we are here to discuss this stuff, so I think it would be dishonest and counterproductive to the forum to hide all criticism.
posted
I pretty much agree with Xap on this one. I don't see anything wrong with being honest, given that I'm here because I hold Card in the highest respect. I think the tone you use matters. I don't think somebody who says "I love his novels, but the Shadow novels don't do as much for me" is anywhere nearly as hurtful or as out of line as someone who says:
quote:Card's always pissed off about something or bordering on boiling-over pissed-offedness about something, even if it's something innocuous to the masses - a dire spotlight of perceived uncivility with a grand heaping of disincongruity will shine.
To me, that sentiment is out of line here. And it's inconsistent with my experience of meeting with Card and interacting with him and his wife through e-mail.
EDIT: and, for what it's worth, I'll delete my comment if you'll delete yours.
posted
Well, I think making negative judgements on an author's personality based on his writing should always be off limits.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I agree with Ela's post about Icarus' post.
OSC is always gracious to his fans. He travels with his lovely wife, and they are both wonderful people who will chat with you, answer questions, sign books until the store kicks us all out, and generally have a few laughs and a few special moments.
That he makes money at this (the writing) is due to the fact that he is good at it.
One last word...Hatrack. I know that other authors do maintain websites, but take a look around here. There are places for people to go who want help with writing, places to discuss OSC works & activities, and then there's the forum just for discussing any old thing that comes to mind. This is not here for marketing. It's here because OSC thought it'd be a good idea and worth the money he spends on it.
It's a gift from him to us.
And we sometimes abuse that gift and he still keeps it going.
I'm sure the thought must cross his mind periodically to shut the place down, or at least curtail the space and bandwidth use by closing the forum. But he resists the urge. Even though he has to have moderators (Kristine and Kathy) who have to take valuable time away from real life and careers to babysit a bunch of people they've invited into their "home."
To show such disrespect as to make blanket statements about Mr. Card's personality or mindset is just plain rude.
fallow, you should at least learn some manners. Even if you really believe what you wrote (and I don't see how you could), you should have the sense and good grace to keep your fingers off the keys.
At the very least, try to let your gratitude for the good things on this site still your desire to be flippant and controversial.
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