posted
Hybrids make sense as an environmentally friendly alternative, but not as a money saver. The amount you save in gas is less than the amount extra you'd pay over a comparable vehicle over the expected lifetime of the car.
Edit: I should say that this is only how things are now. As time passes and hybrid technology matures and becomes more widely used it should become cheaper.
posted
Hybrids help a bit considering my mileage in a 85 Volvo 240.
Hybrids have been on the market 4-5 years now, pH, they are made by 2 high reliability companies (Honda and Toyota) and by all accounts they have lived up to their reputations.
If you want a V6, you are sorta defeating the purpose of having a hybrid. If there is one thing they are NOT designed for, it's speed/accfeleration.
However, supposedly there will be a V6 hybrid Honda Accord out in the fall or next spring. That may tickle your fancy.
posted
Yes, but five years isn't exactly a long time, in the grand scheme of things. I need the acceleration of a v6 (my father would add, especially considering the way I drive...lies! ), and I really think I agree with my parents on waiting a while before running out to get a hybrid. Maybe after the car I'm getting next week dies, I'll feel more comfortable with hybrids. It'd also be cool if more than two companies started making them.
Posts: 9057 | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was looking at the Honda Accord Hybrid yesterday, and it said it started at $19K new. Maybe my pricing sense is a little out of whack since I've only ever shopped for Volvos, but isn't that pretty reasonable for a car? Especially since Honda's are supposed to be so reliable?
<--- wants a Volvo XC Hybrid like there's no tomorrow. Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I filled up this morning for $1.839. Some stations have gone down here since yesterday (barrel prices dropped a little due to an announcement from Saudi Arabia about increasing production by 1.5 million barrels).
$19k sounds reasonable. The hybrids have excellent acceleration. I've driven a Honda Insight and was impressed. An Accord or Prius would be more feasible. I would buy one if I could afford a new car.
The Ford Escape hybrid is coming soon and GM is coming out with some hybrid trucks in two years or so. I'm hoping for a hybrid minivan to take the family around in.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
ACK! Not only did they go up from yesterday to this morning -- $2.19 to $2.21 at the cheapest place nearby -- they ALSO went up from this morning to this afternoon! I had to pay $2.23! *dies*
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, I should add that the electric motor really kicks butt on low end acceleration. pH, you'd be one of the fastes of the line going from 0-20, say, but after that you'll eat most any car's dust.
Also, people are amazingly flexible creatures, and can adjust to new conditions
A Volvo XC hybrid _would_ rule.
Also, 5 years is actually a very decent time within which to make conclusions on a line. Generally, in the automotive world, if it doesn't break in the first 30k miles, it won't break until the end of it's expected lifetime. In fact, that's generally true of most manufactured things (bad computers generally manifest their issues fairly quickly, or never at all).
-Bok
EDIT: Ayelar, you were looking at the Civic Hybrid; there are no published specs on the Accord Hybrid yet, I believe. The Civic Hybrid is 19.5k for a stick, 20.5k for a CVT.
posted
aren't there much better, efficient cars that companies have developed, but not released? someone back me up on this?
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, in the past, big car companies have been known to buy up fledgling alt-power companies and just sort of sit on the research, for no apparent reason.
I mean, they could all start making aerodynamically efficient, gas-sipping econo-boxes tomorrow, but people (in the general sense) don't want them.
posted
The reason why hybrids don't have a V6 motor is because of one simple reason. The gasoline motor has nothing to do with the direct propulsion of the vehicle. The entire drivetrain is is powered by the electric motor. The electric motor is powered by batteries (nickel-metal hydride I believe), which are charged by the gasoline motor.
That is why a V6 motor would not increase actual torque, it would simply increase the rate of the battery charge. A "V6" car is called a V6 because it has six cylinders that are arranged in a pattern of a V. There are six cylinder cars that don't have a V6 motor.
I have a four cylinder car, but it's not a V4. My engine is a "boxed" engine (slang). The cylinders are horizontally opposed.
Does the help answer any questions?
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nick, that's only generally true of the Prius. The Civic hybrid uses the electric motor as an acceleration assist. At least, that's what I've gathered from researching their sites and other online info.
-Bok
EDIT: I should add that Honda even utilizes a cylinder-control scheme where it will turn off some cylinders, based on the power need... SO that implies to me that the engine IS required, sometimes, to drive the vehicle, not just as a powerplant for the motor.
quote: aren't there much better, efficient cars that companies have developed, but not released? someone back me up on this?
I'll back you up on it.
They're called fuel cell cars, and they work by harnessing the electric current that is released when oxygen meets with hydrogen to form electricity. They accomplish this with a permeable layer that conducts electricity. Unfortunately, one of these layers only generates about .7 volts of electricity. But they are very thin, and can be stacked. You can create a large amount of electricity by doing this. It only needs a pure source of hydrogen (the challenge that GM, Daimler Chrysler, Ford, and Toyota are all facing) to run because there is not a shortage of oxygen. The only "exhaust" is heat and pure, distilled, drinkable water. More info: Click on the link on the right that says: "How fuel cells work" Here.
[ May 11, 2004, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I didn't know that the Civic hybrid used it's combustion engine to help propel it. Could you provide how you learned this, I would like to see it. *is a visual learner* EDIT: I'm just not typing well today!
[ May 11, 2004, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I know what's up with that mack? Do cops target four cylinder vehicles? My first car was a Jeep Grand Cherokee V8 (which had more pickup than almost any four cylinder! 5.2 V8 ) I never got a ticket in that car, but I got my Subaru wagon and I got a ticked a week later for 18 over the limit. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote: SO that implies to me that the engine IS required, sometimes, to drive the vehicle, not just as a powerplant for the motor.
How would that imply that that it would have to drive the vehicle? Maybe that means the the batteries are at full charge, and the engine does not have to run full speed to keep the batteries charged enough to run the electric motor.
Just a thought. You do seem to know more about the Civic Hybrid than I do, but I'm not seeing the logic there. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:The latest version of Honda's Integrated Motor Assist (IMA™) system thrusts the Civic Hybrid to the forefront of hybrid technology. On the electric side of the power-producing equation is an ultra-thin brushless DC motor. Assisting the engine as needed, this highly efficient, compact unit increases total torque output by a whopping 66% at 1000 rpm. And conveniently enough, you never have to plug the Hybrid in for recharging.
-Bok
EDIT: I should add, that none of the in-production hybrids can drive without gas. They explicitly warn you in the guide to not drive the tank empty, even if you have a full battery pack.
There are two general schemes for hybrid vehicle technology: the parallel configuration and the series configuration. In the series configuration, the electric motor does all the work of moving the vehicle while the engine only generates electricity for charging the battery. In the parallel configuration, both the engine and the motor work to move the vehicle, and the engine also generates electricity to charge the battery. You seem to be talking about the series configuration. But neither Honda nor Toyota uses a completely series configuration.
As Bok mentioned, Honda uses a parallel configuration. Toyota uses a sort of in-between configuration that acts like a series configuration at low speeds (under 15 mph) and a parallel configuration at freeway speeds.
Now, because most of where a high torque engine is working is low-end acceleration, you're probably right that the way the Prius is built wouldn't necessarily speed up acceleration by putting in a bigger engine (because at the low end the motor is doing all of the work). But it probably would make a difference when speeding up from, say, 40 to 60.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I bought my Prius last week. (28,000 miles, $15,000 from the dealer) It moves fine thank you. But if you drive like me it only gets 43 mpg on the highway.
As for options, I've got buttons for cd changers, gps mapping (the touch screen display is standard, it shows you the car's functions, an acts as the interface for the stereo) highway alerts, and so forth. When I touch the buttons the display reads "the external system is not connected" (In other words, you can buy it, but it's not on this unit) I think it's pretty cool that the radio displays the name of the song and the artist, along with the radio station's call letters. The little fuel mileage bar graph and power flow chart thingy is pretty neat too.
I've got automatic air conditioning, cruise control, ABS, factory alarm system, power windows and door locks. (And three trip odometers)
What options do you need?
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I never said anything about a specific car. I didn't know that hybrids had another way of working besides the series configuration (to use your words). I know now though. Thanks for the information, I always like learning new stuff about new "techy cars." Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
I'd like to add, before you all go jumping on me for being a self-centered gas guzzler, I'm not the only one involved in the car decisions. My parents are paying for it, so if they want me to wait until my next car to look more carefully at hybrids, that's what's going to happen.
Posts: 9057 | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Heh, pH, you're a college freshman and your parents are buying you... a new car? And you need leather? Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
I somehow got on the Saudi Arabian Embassy User Group. They send me mail once or twice a week. Enclosed is their most recent mail that came in yesterday:
quote: Saudi Arabia is calling for OPEC to increase oil production to prevent high crude prices from hindering global economic growth. According to a May 10 statement by Saudi Arabia’s Minister of Petroleum and Mineral Resources Ali Al-Naimi the OPEC production ceiling should increase by at least 1.5 million barrels per day (bpd), or just over six percent.
Al-Naimi said that such an increase was "essential" to balance global supply and demand after prices spiked to $40 a barrel last week, adding that the Kingdom is committed to “maintaining sufficient supplies to avoid price fluctuation that might have a negative effect on producers, consumers and the oil industry as a whole.”
Al-Naimi attributed international increases of oil prices to a number of causes, such as the market's unwarranted fear of disruption in oil supplies, “the trend among traders and investors to purchase and maintain long-term contracts for commodities such as oil” and “the expected shortage in some types of gasoline in the United States as a result of the stringent environmental regulations that have aggravated the crisis and contributed to price increases both in products and crude.”
"We ... do not want to see prices rise to the level that they negatively affect the growth of the international economy or the demand for oil," said Al-Naimi. "It is apparent that demand, especially in Asia, has been increasing, and will continue to increase in the second half of this year."
The Saudi proposal will be reviewed by other OPEC oil ministers at the International Energy Forum in Amsterdam on May 22-24 and Al-Naimi will “try to reach an understanding for an increase in the production ceiling” at the June 3 OPEC meeting in Beirut.
Good news.
They went further in a follow up news letter. They suggested reading This Reuters article on why gas prices are going up.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dan, I heard a story relating that "Saudi Arabia is calling for OPEC to increase oil production to prevent high crude prices from hindering global economic growth" on the news yesterday morning.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
I hope I can find a VW Golf with leather than I an afford no older than a 2000. With less that 50,000 miles. Not possible I know, but I can dream right?
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Since this is my thread, and I can derail it all I want, ha ha ha.... why is leather seating seen as more desirable in cars? Our old Volvo had blue fabric, and our new one has tan leather, and I have to say I really preferred the fabric. Sure, it didn't look as fancy, but it was a lot less affected by weather conditions and wasn't as slippery. And we're supposed to use this leather conditioner to care for it? Pff.
I guess I need me one o' dem fine sheepskin covers, like them's at the gas station. Mighty fine.
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
OPEC does not really care about the world economy. The real reason they try to keep crude prices from going to high is alternate fuel. Right now gas prices are not enough to motivate most Americans to buy an alt fuel car...nor is it enough for the government to put more money into research in these types of cars. However, OPEC realizes that if things get to bad, we will put more effort into alt fuel sources (or hybrid) and once that happens, OPEC is through for good. The hardest thing about changing fuel sources is setting up the infrastructure...once that is done, keeping it up is easy. If OPEC looses America, they are screwed. Right now they are flirting with a very dangerous price range. It is getting to the range where people are started to get pissed off, and are talking more about other sources. I believe that if the average gas price in the USA gets up to 3 bucks within the next couple of years, there will be a bigger push for the alt fuel sources…leading to a decrease in fuel usage, which will nail OPEC.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, I bought my Prius used, so leather wasn't an option. I don't know whether it's available or not.
But as far as that goes, I don't like leather seats either. You might as well get vinyl. I'll take cloth any day.
Bush and Cheney say that "you can't reach energy independence through conservation." That's almost as good as "WAR IS PEACE - FREEDOM IS SLAVERY - IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH"
The ONLY way to achieve energy independence is through conservation. What? Are we supposed to achieve energy independence through consumption?
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow, that's insane. I wish I only had to pay 2 bucks for a gallon of gas. I just can't believe we've already hit 4 dollars. Now THAT is crazy. How does gas double in price in less than a decade, anyway? Do they even know?
Posts: 1324 | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Personally, I don't think its a big deal. My auto insurance (with no accidents affecting the rate) still costs more than gasoline. And Canadians are working, if my calculations are correct, with 20% higher prices for gasoline, not accounting for the exchange rate which would bump it up a couple extra percent.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
This happens over and over again, and will continue to do so until literally there just isn't enough gasoline to go around, and people are forced to adapt.
edit: Or until somebody brilliant develops an energy source that can power a vehicle cheaply yet as efficiently. It does not have to be cheaper than gas now, just cheaper than what gas will be down the road.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: This happens over and over again, and will continue to do so until literally there just isn't enough gasoline to go around, and people are forced to adapt.
edit: Or until somebody brilliant develops an energy source that can power a vehicle cheaply yet as efficiently. It does not have to be cheaper than gas now, just cheaper than what gas will be down the road.
Or if we actually get the massive amounts of oil that we have in our own country instead of worrying about a little frog or fish that will be affected by it.
I'm down with nuclear powered cars though.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: This happens over and over again, and will continue to do so until literally there just isn't enough gasoline to go around, and people are forced to adapt.
edit: Or until somebody brilliant develops an energy source that can power a vehicle cheaply yet as efficiently. It does not have to be cheaper than gas now, just cheaper than what gas will be down the road.
Or if we actually get the massive amounts of oil that we have in our own country instead of worrying about a little frog or fish that will be affected by it.
I'm down with nuclear powered cars though.
The only oil we have in this country in "massive amounts" is shale oil. The stuff in Alaska and the Gulf is nice, but is dramatically less than is necessary to sate our appetite for oil. Our shale oil deposits, on the other hand, are massive. We're the Saudi Arabia of shale oil. The down side, is that it is extremely expensive to extract, even more expensive to refine, and is incredibly harmful to the surrounding environment even with the expensive measures taken to protect the surrounding areas. Thankfully that's changing a bit as new technologies come online - far less invasive ones. But even so, shale oil only works when oil costs $100+, since it costs almost $90 a barrel to produce.
Most new oil finds, the big ones, are in hyper deep ocean wells, like that big find the Brazilians had a year or two ago that was touted as bigger than a Saudi Super-well. Those, too, are very expensive, and very dangerous to extract.
We're far beyond the low hanging fruit. Everything going forward is extreme oil, and that means it's all expensive, even if there's still quite a bit of it left. Thankfully, American demand for oil is actually dropping year over year, and the trend is starting to hold as Americans buy more and more fuel efficient cars that reduce our long term demand for oil. I give Obama a lot of credit for forcing tougher and tougher CAFE standards on the auto companies. They've come up with some great cars, and especially companies like Ford, have managed to do it while not only NOT going bankrupt, but with the biggest profits they've seen in a decade. They have to move more volume and rely on smaller profits per car, but that's a 21st century reality regardless, and has little to do with Obama.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Geraine:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: This happens over and over again, and will continue to do so until literally there just isn't enough gasoline to go around, and people are forced to adapt.
edit: Or until somebody brilliant develops an energy source that can power a vehicle cheaply yet as efficiently. It does not have to be cheaper than gas now, just cheaper than what gas will be down the road.
Or if we actually get the massive amounts of oil that we have in our own country instead of worrying about a little frog or fish that will be affected by it.
I'm down with nuclear powered cars though.
Hope you enjoy cancer babies, dirty water, acid rain, etc etc if you push aside environmental protections.
I'm a big fan of nuclear power and electric/hydrogen cars. As nuclear power is arguably cleaner than hydroelectric and vastly cleaner than coal plants by an order of magnitude.
IP: Logged |
quote:Or if we actually get the massive amounts of oil that we have in our own country instead of worrying about a little frog or fish that will be affected by it.
The oil in the US couldn't affect the prices of gas noticeably.
quote:If we're using less gas as a result, I can't help but see the higher prices as a good thing.
Yep. Prices are by far the best way to change our gasoline habits.
quote:This happens over and over again, and will continue to do so until literally there just isn't enough gasoline to go around, and people are forced to adapt.
The nifty thing about undistorted price signals is, everything adjusts automatically.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Indeed. However, the reality is even more people get squeezed even more if you try to stop the adjusting. That doesn't mean that the effects of squeezing can't be reduced, just that trying to do so by stopping the adjusting is a very bad idea.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm sure there are lots of things you think are nifty that are connected somehow to some people not being so well off. All I said was that it was nifty things adjust automatically when price signals are allowed to operate, not that it was nifty certain people became worse off.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Its nifty the same way watching a tornado going through new york city would be nifty.
IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: This happens over and over again, and will continue to do so until literally there just isn't enough gasoline to go around, and people are forced to adapt.
edit: Or until somebody brilliant develops an energy source that can power a vehicle cheaply yet as efficiently. It does not have to be cheaper than gas now, just cheaper than what gas will be down the road.
Or if we actually get the massive amounts of oil that we have in our own country instead of worrying about a little frog or fish that will be affected by it.
I'm down with nuclear powered cars though.
It's not about the "poor little" frogs and fishes. It's more about there having no fishes for people to eat. Or, the soil is too poor to use for crops without the use of fertilizers which require an immense amount of energy to produce.
Read Jared Diamond's Collapse (he also wrote Guns, Germs and Steel), which shows rather directly the correlation between poor environmental decisions and the collapse of many historical civilizations. Our habitats are not too big to screw up.
While we're at it, you should read Michael Pollan's Omnivore's Dilemma. The book has a very good description of the way corn subsides have discouraged crop rotation in favor of plastic fertilizers which use an incredible amount of oil to produce, both subsidized by our tax dollars, and the run-off from which is killing the fishing industry inthe Gulf of Mexico (well, before the oil spill torpedoed it).
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
), and I really think I agree with my parents on waiting a while before running out to get a hybrid. Maybe after the car I'm getting next week dies, I'll feel more comfortable with hybrids. It'd also be cool if more than two companies started making them.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
)![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
