I'm surprised, but I don't think hell froze over. Hell might freeze over if say, I converted to Mormonism (or possibly Tom). They'd have to pry the coffee beans out of my cold, dead hands...
You say you lost a friend over this. I'm sorry to hear that. I can understand that people might be concerned that you might not be making the best decision, but if they cut you off or become hostile toward you, I believe that says more about them than you. I've lost a few friends myself over theological issues, and I know this is going to sound cliche, but I'm not so sure they were ever "true" friends to begin with. Obviously, I don't know any details past this thread of your situation, but that's just been my experience.
In the end, it's between you and God (I can hear the groanings and mumblings from the peanut gallery ). Even if you are making a "mistake" -- and I hope this is not the case, futhermore, I don't think it is -- you'll learn from the experience.
In the words of Mike Roe, "Go with God, but go!"
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I can sympathise with the uncertainties which plague you at this time - I don't know the details of what you've been through lately but from reading this thread I've got a hint.
I had a breakdown a few years ago and was diagnosed with clinical depression and put on strong medication. From discussions with my parents and from lots of talk with my shrink it was also realised that this was something I'd been suffering from since I was around 7/8. My Mum tried to get help for me back then but was told it was all in her imagination and I was just highly strung. One thing thats really been affected by this is my memory - I marvel at how much other people remember about their lives growing up but all I remember are a few major events and many times of feeling alone and despairing.
My parents converted LDS when I was 9 and I was baptised then too. I went through the youth and seminary programmes and gained my own testimony. Most of the few strong memories I do have are spirit related. They're not just emotional experiences they're more fundamental than that and I know thats why I remember them when many happy emotional experiences are gone. I recognise what you mean when you say
quote: I can't explain how I feel and do justice to it.
Anyway the point I really wanted to make was when I started on my medication I was really worried about losing my spirituality and not being able to feel the spirit. I had a blessing and was told it was what I needed to do. Things didn't improve depression wise overnight - they never do but the spirit didn't leave me. During this time there were only two thinks I could do by myself (i.e. without one of my parents being with me) go out in the woods walking our dogs and go to the temple. Both those things brought me peace even if only for a short while. Anyway I can testify that medication doesn't stop or replicate the spiritual feelings - I felt the spirit in same way I had before taking it.
I still question why I had to go through this but despite that I know that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ love me and were always there when I went to them for help.
I hope you have a wonderful day on the 29th. As an ex-missionary my piece of advice is write down your feelings about it the same day while they're fresh.
posted
Mack, I'm sorry about your lost friend. And the ones who aren't so lost but try to second guess your decisions. You have all the time in eternity. So do they. Who knows? They may change their minds. Stranger things have happened.
posted
As someone to whom this same crazy train ride happened, I have an inkling, perhaps, of what you are feeling. Friends who leave will come back, I think, in the long run. At least, those who were worth having. There's so much misunderstanding. My parents were completely appalled, and said things like "we've decided you've just turned off your brain," and other helpful supportive things like that.
It's so odd how my whole worldview had to totally transform, yet in the end it's not all that different in details. It's the fundamentals which had to conform to this new and indisputable observation of the love of Heavenly Father and his watchfulness and care over me, and the directions in which he was pointing me.
Everything in some ways is so much easier now, but in other ways it is WAY WAY HARDER! Before I was just me. Now I have this responsibility to serve everyone, the whole world, and somehow to help it through. It's certainly changed my life totally.
Am I happier? Yes, completely. No question. Though so much more is demanded of me now. In a way it's like being in love and getting married. Though it brings a world of responsibility and difficulties, still in some way the happiest day alone was less happy than the most difficult and trying day together.
I am SO NOT A JOINER! It's fundamentally contrary to my nature. I think I will struggle with that from now on. I really feel part of the community here at hatrack, but never in my wards. I think we need to have a hatrack ward, a virtual ward.
Anyway, I'm so glad for you. It's the most wonderful thing, to taste that white fruit, and to know it's there where you can find it. And not just flashes here and there at long intervals, but right there, anytime you want or need it. Continuously. It's an amazing thing, and I never cease to be grateful for it.
Hearing about your baptism, or Hobbes, or Dave's makes me feel again as I felt when I was baptised. Thank you for that. My joy is full.
(Mac, have you read that part at the end (I think it's in 3 Nephi) when Christ is speaking to the Nephites and he blesses their children and weeps? And the angels come down from heaven and encircle them in fire and they minister to the children? We are those children, mac. You and I. )
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posted
Oh and in answer to someones question - you can get baptised LDS any day of the week. You have to be confirmed with the Gift of the Holy Ghost on a Sunday though.
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quote: You have to be confirmed with the Gift of the Holy Ghost on a Sunday though.
Ummm. No you don't. Many wards like to do it that way. But there's no 'have to' anywhere that I know of.
Practices regarding confirmation tend to vary regionally and have even swung back and forth in some of the wards I've been in -- at times it happens at the same ceremony where the baptism takes place, at other times it takes place the next Sunday at the beginning of the sacrament service.
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I thought they brought a rule out that it was supposed to take place during sacrament meeting - it could be a guideline but it wasn't supposed to be the same day as the baptism. This was in 1999 when I was serving so it may have changed!
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quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Meanwhile, I'm over in TomDavidson's camp for the agnostics/atheists... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:/ I hate it when people group them together. Some agnostics believe in a God! Athiests do NOT.
Well some agnostics do not believe in a God but think it still might be possible for Him to exist. I'm an agnostic who believes that God is so highly improbable that it isn't practical to have religion in my life. This, according to your link, is close to atheism. Which is why I grouped them together.
I don't think I would claim to be part of a religion while agnostic. I think it's important to at least believe in God to be a member of a church. Otherwise it seems a little deceitful, or like you're just using religion instead of contributing to it. So if you can group Lutheran/agnostic together, I feel like I can group atheist/agnostic together. Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Mack, I realized that I never said congratulations or anything, so here you go:
Congratulations. Having grown up in the Church, I can't imagine what it must be like to have a conversion experience like that. But I think it's awesome that you've had one, and I wish you the best of luck.
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The confirmation on Sunday thing is a relatively new instruction from the top. It is not doctrinal, as confirmations have historically happened on any day, just like baptisms. When I was a missionary, twelve years ago, we always did confirmations immediately following the baptism.
Come to think of it, I think the current instruction is different for converts than it is for 8 year olds. I can't remember the difference, though.
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quote:The confirmation on Sunday thing is a relatively new instruction from the top.
It was also a practice for awhile during the late 70s and early 80s -- or at least it was in the Utah and CA wards I knew well enough to know what they were doing in this regard. So it's not without precedent.
Point is, as you mention, not a doctrinal thing -- a policy thing.
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True, I remember as a kid that confirmations were usually done on Fast Sundays, just like baby blessings. I guess it has changed several times.
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I my ward, we still confirm eight-year-old baptisms right after the baptism. IIRC, the rule to only confirm on Sunday is only for convert baptisms.
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I think that having the confirmation at the same time as the baptism is in the spirit of the prophet's letter that we not overschedule ourselves with church events. Especially if you have a lot of family traveling from semi-far away to attend, and missing their own meetings as a result. I can also see it being in the spirit of the "no elaborate receptions for departing and returning missionaries" idea, and that if you attend someone else's sacrament meeting, you should attend their whole sunday dealy.
I grew up in the church with a very emotional sort of faith, and my year on lithium really changed that. For a while I repudiated all religious experience outside of the scriptures (this was post- doubting God altogether) and since have come back to a more integrated approach to faith involving both the spirit and the word.
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Your posts are making me rethink my own conviction that there isn't a god, I've never heard anyone talk about religion in such a real way before.
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posted
I completely agree, Rain, that people have the right to be as correct or incorrect as they want about issues of hypothetical metaphysics.
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(Don't MAKE me be snarky on this thread, Rain; You can drop me an E-mail if you really want to get smug and self-righteous about it.)
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posted
Tom reminds me of the guy who stands up at a wedding reception and gives a toast that says, "The wedding was lovely. May all your weddings be as good."
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How do you feel about third-rate, thinly-veiled religious poetry, Mr. Grumpy O'Rainyday?
quote: I shall bathe
I've been rolling in dew, running in rain, But I've never seen a river. Never heard water whisper, in love and in pain, So deep to my heart that I shiver And burn.
I've walked in blizzards, and stumbled in mist But I've never heard the sea. Never felt the waves around my legs, and reach to kiss My lips. The hopeful all of me Licks salt.
I shall not wade. I shall bathe.
And this dust that I shake into the waves, Dust from snow, and dew, and rain, May it rest. May it stay lost in the sea of days, And never see the sky again Forever.
Congratulations, Mackillian. I hope that your choices always bring you peace of conscience.
[ May 22, 2004, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
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posted
Mack, I wish you good fortune on your new adventure. May you draw close to the heart of God and find Truth.
Wenchcon water, I think, inspires people to look into their hearts and find what is there. It also inspires them to pursue that better self which we hopefully all want to be. In whatever vehicle this comes, I consider it blessed.
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posted
Jamie, I have feeling I should know what the heck you mean by that.
But I don't.
*fidgets* Did I say something funny and you scattered popcorn? Are you going to make me be Cinderella to pay for a night's sleep? Did we work out a code and I lost the secret decoder ring? *concentrates* Jamie, you need to find my scissors for me. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I can't! AIM is even worse than Trillian. AIM makes evil things happen to my computer. Specifically, it won't log me out when I say I'm logged out, so I end up multiplying like Agent Smith, and it's the other Katie that gets all the incoming AIMs.
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posted
Mack, congratulations. I admire your conviction and your trust in yourself. It's one of the things that I've ALWAYS admired about you. Always trust that. Your relationship with God is yours to know and understand and I'm so glad that you're going to make these promises and covenants. The church will be better with you in it.
And thanks for sharing your thoughts and news with us. It means a lot and I'm really happy for you...and the church. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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