posted
Could someone check the following summary for me. I find that I'm intensely interested in the issue, but like most men who haven't been around children much, I'm ignorant of the basic facts.
So, breastfeeding shouldn't be painful and the woman should seek assistance if it is; it can be messy (let down can happen at inopportune moments, for example), but shouldn't be too bothersome if you plan ahead; it may be socially unacceptable for some, but the attitudes in the US seem to be shifting, at least about breastfeeding -- ideal age of weaning is another topic altogether; and, breastfeeding is best for the baby because of various nutrients and immunities that are passed from mother to child this way. Along with a love of favorite foods (or so I'm told).
Pumps are a good idea because: you have breastmilk ready for feedings even if mom is not available (like maybe she needs sleep every once in awhile); if you are producing a lot of milk, it's not going to waste. Some kids prefer the bottle.
Formula is not as good for the baby and should only be used when the baby is reacting badly to breastmilk (e.g., allergies) or if breastmilk is simply not available (e.g., mom isn't producing enough or has stopped lactating for some reason).
As for benefits for the mother, breastfeeding may help to lose weight. Breast size (um...who cares???) may be affected up, down or not at all. But that could happen just with pregnancy and whether you breastfeed or not may have no effect.
There's a lot to be said for the psychological bond between mother and child while breastfeeding too, I suppose. But does that mean that feeding from a bottle is going to harm your child's self-esteem?
Anyway, I'd appreciate knowing if this sort of sums things up. Is that the prevailing wisdom? Or, is that stuff up for debate?
In my mom's generation, I think women were encouraged to use formula and bottles. Part of that was being "modern," (whatever that means) but I know there was also the idea of cleanliness using a sterilized bottle & nipple as being "obviously better" for the baby than some body part that must be dirty because it's used in sex or something along those lines. Anyway, I'm sure women in the 1950's were convinced that their breasts were covered in germs and only by using the Platex nurser could they avoid killing their babies.
Any thoughts you'd care to share would be most welcome.
And can I join a class action suit against formula makers? I think my self-esteem was damaged by being fed formula from a bottle.
Either that or I was weaned too early or potty trained too late.
I can't remember which.
By the way...there should be an "episiotomy discussion warning" on this thread. Yikes!!!
Oh, and public episiotomies would make me uncomfortable.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Hey Bob! If you think those public one would make you uncomfortable, think how those private ones make us feel! :shakes if anticipatory fear: Posts: 601 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Ok, me being a guy and having been able to read pretty nearly half of ths thread without throwing up(though I admit I picked my battles, and didn't read most of this page) I think I deserve a medal of honor. Or at least a chance to derail and reply to the original question and contradict the heck out of myself Covered breastfeeding: Well yes it makes me uncomfortable, but I certainly don't think I have a right to do more than feel that way. Uncovered breast feeding: hemm hur, I guess since other guys have spoken up honestly about this, I'll try to take that a step further. Somebody said something about it not being at all erotic, and somebody else said something about the eroticness of breasts being a cultural thing- yeah well bu-honkey. I rather doubt there's been a straight guy ever born that wasn't totally fascinated with breasts-yes I am saying it, female human breasts are, in fact, erotic if you are a male human-, and the fact that some guys are a lot more used to naked boobs than others and are therefore less likely to be shocked is beside the point. Uncovered breast feeding does not simply make me uncomfortable, I believe it rather tends to disgust me, and though of course I can't really make this comparison in a practical sense, I would say my embarrasment over that is approximately on par with what it would be if I was witnessing female masturbation. That being said, despite me and others being pretty severely shocked and embarassed and having to look every which way, a woman should be able to breast feed her baby pretty much whenever, wherever and, within limits of course, however she wants, and nobody really has any right to bitch about it, because if you think about it, who the heck has any right to come between a mother and her baby doing what's natural and right for the baby? Otherwise, you might as well just throw the whole motherhood thing out the window and send all infants to some new-age "adult factories". That idea doesn't appeal to me personally. It disgusts me on a moral level rather than a superficial one.
There I said it all *finds large barrel, hides till next day* breast feeding is for girls, anyway. Literally. Speaking of which, on the subject of women, why would a woman who is not a nutsy radical anti-breastfeeding feminist and not a lesbian who has been in a women's locker room find another woman's breast feeding in public disturbing? I don't get it in a does not compute, brain overload, kind of way. *Self destruct* Well this would go along with my theory tht all women are bi-sexual, but I'm afraid that's hardly a very scientific theory No I do not get it, not at all, somebody care to elaborate? Maybe that's a dumb question and I'm thinking too much from a guy's perspective but I confess that's the only perspective I happen to have. Oh well good thread anyway.
Posts: 1103 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:So, breastfeeding shouldn't be painful and the woman should seek assistance if it is
This is true.
quote:it can be messy (let down can happen at inopportune moments, for example), but shouldn't be too bothersome if you plan ahead
Ususally only in the beginning, and washing all those bottles for formula can be a lot more messy (plus a lot more expensive!).
quote:it may be socially unacceptable for some, but the attitudes in the US seem to be shifting, at least about breastfeeding
I sure hope so! At times I am not altogether convinced.
quote:ideal age of weaning is another topic altogether
Ideal age of weaning is whatever works best for the nursing couplet. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends breastfeeding for at least one year (and waiting till at least 6 months to start solid foods). It is still pretty uncommon, though, for a woman to nurse the baby a full year, in the US, anyway.
quote:breastfeeding is best for the baby because of various nutrients and immunities that are passed from mother to child this way. Along with a love of favorite foods (or so I'm told).
Not to mention the comfort of being close to mom. Breastfeeding also helps proper jaw development, can reduce the risk for many chronic diseases, and has a whole host of other benefits.
quote:Pumps are a good idea because: you have breastmilk ready for feedings even if mom is not available (like maybe she needs sleep every once in awhile); if you are producing a lot of milk, it's not going to waste. Some kids prefer the bottle.
I want to counter the notion that pumps are a necessary part of breastfeeding. This is one of my pet peeves. The pump companies make moms think they have to have a pump to breastfeed. I get calls all the time from mothers who are planning to breastfeed and think they need a pump right away.
Pumps are needed if the mother is going back to work, or if the mother or baby can't nurse due to illness or other extenuating circumstance. Some mothers who stay home with the baby like to have a pump on hand to pump an occasional bottle. In any case, pumping should not begin until the baby is at least a month old, again, unless there is an illness or some extenuating circumstance. A woman should always consult a LLL Leader or certified lactation consultant if she is told she "has" to pump. Some doctors will tell a woman that she has to stop breastfeeding and pump when there is no necessity to do this.
quote:Formula is not as good for the baby and should only be used when the baby is reacting badly to breastmilk (e.g., allergies) or if breastmilk is simply not available (e.g., mom isn't producing enough or has stopped lactating for some reason).
Formula is definitely not as good for the baby. (I could give you an earful about some of the downsides of formula, but that would open a whole different can of worms.)
If a baby is allergic, that is usually NOT an indication to stop breastfeeding. MOST allergic babies do much better on breastfeeding; sometimes the mom may need to adjust her diet, though, to eliminate foods the baby reacts to. Often this adjustment may be temporary, as the baby may outgrow sensitivities to certain foods.
I would also not tell a mother to automatically give formula for a perceived breastmilk insufficiency. I say this because far too many women start supplementing because they think they don't have enough, and this just exacerbates the problem. The body makes the amount of milk the baby needs based on the amount of stimuation of the breast, either by sucking or pumping. If a woman assumes that she doesn't have enough, and starts supplementing, her milk will go down, and "not enough milk" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The way to tell a baby is getting enough milk is by monitoring wet and dirty diapers, weight gain, and normal development. A normal newborn will be making 5-6 really wet disposable diapers (6-8 cloth diapers) by about the 3rd day of life, and 3-5 dirty diapers per day. If a woman suspects she is not making enough, or has been told she doesn't have enough by her doctor or the baby's doctor, she should consult a LLL Leader and/or see a lactation consultant.
quote:As for benefits for the mother, breastfeeding may help to lose weight.
This seems to be true for most women.
quote:Breast size (um...who cares???) may be affected up, down or not at all. But that could happen just with pregnancy and whether you breastfeed or not may have no effect.
Yes, it is pregnancy, whether or not you breastfeed, that causes the most changes to the breast.
quote:There's a lot to be said for the psychological bond between mother and child while breastfeeding too, I suppose. But does that mean that feeding from a bottle is going to harm your child's self-esteem?
Depends on how the mother handles bottlefeeding. If she thinks it's too much trouble and "props" the bottle for the baby (a very dangerous practice, by the way), then I guess it could affect the child's self-esteem.
quote:In my mom's generation, I think women were encouraged to use formula and bottles. Part of that was being "modern," (whatever that means) but I know there was also the idea of cleanliness using a sterilized bottle & nipple as being "obviously better" for the baby than some body part that must be dirty because it's used in sex or something along those lines. Anyway, I'm sure women in the 1950's were convinced that their breasts were covered in germs and only by using the Platex nurser could they avoid killing their babies.
Bob, I wasn't breastfed either. The doctor convinced my mom that she couldn't breastfeed after a c-section. He couldn't understand why she would want to breastfeed, anyway, and asked if she wanted to make herself into a cow. Her response was, "Yes, I do," and for my two sisters, she found a doctor supportive of breastfeeding and breastfed them both.
quote:And can I join a class action suit against formula makers? I think my self-esteem was damaged by being fed formula from a bottle.
I don't know of any class action suits against formula.
Maybe you'd like to check out IBFAN, though, or WABA.
**Ela**
[ June 27, 2004, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
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"Speaking of which, on the subject of women, why would a woman who is not a nutsy radical anti-breastfeeding feminist and not a lesbian who has been in a women's locker room find another woman's breast feeding in public disturbing?"
I am not a nutsy radical anti-breastfeeding feminist. I am not a lesbian.(amd i totally don;t get the locker room reference, but whatever)
I will be honest. I feel uncomfortable seeing people's private body parts, even a woman's. I am TOTALLY Ok with public breastfeeding. I happened to be very shy about it, as I am shy about seeing other people's "parts. That is all.
There is also a genrational thing. My great-grandmother was horrified by seeing people eat in public(like as they walk along the street) She was post-Victorian age, but retained many of the taboos. At various points in history, women were not allowed in public when they were pregnant.
Also, I know a lot of men who will not urinate in front of other men. Some people are just shy.
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quote:So, breastfeeding shouldn't be painful and the woman should seek assistance if it is
I haven't had time to read this topic entirely, so I'm not sure how others have addressed the pain issue.
Breastfeeding can be very painful indeed. I even found the first week of nursing to be painful after my third child. Pain or not, I wouldn't have opted to feed my newborns any differently. It was the only thing that made sense to me.
I truly feel terrible for new mothers who have such a hard time and stop. I can’t help but think due to my own experiences, that they gave up to soon.
For those new mothers who find breast feeding distasteful, I feel sorry for them as well. It’s an experience that no mother should miss. *personal feelings*
I developed a horrible case of mastitis during my first child’s first month of nursing. When you're hurt and bleeding, it's very hard to continue subjecting yourself to the very thing that caused you so much pain. I mentioned here before that I agreed to have pictures of my wounds taken, that's how bad they were, for a nursing manual of some sort. I had to wear cups that make me look like Wonder Woman until the infection cleared up. That in itself was humiliating. I nursed through the entire episode. As much as I was reassured, I had a hard time believing that this was okay for my baby. I cried every time I nursed, due to the intense pain, for several weeks.
I nursed in public, all the time. I was lucky. You couldn't tell I was nursing. I just laid a diaper or baby blanket over them and they usually nursed until they fell asleep. These matters can generally be handled very discreetly.
However, without going into detail...some mothers are not that fortunate.
I nursed all of my children until they were almost two years old.
I’ve witnessed both discreet and indiscreet nursing. Unfortunately, some do nurse in a way that would make anyone uncomfortable. There are exhibitionist , if you will, out there. I find this to be an extreme exception, definitely not the norm.
I can’t handle the mothers who are so distracted, or whatever, that they just let junior walk up and help himself to comfort, right then and there…in public. That’s over the top.
Time to graduate to a sippy cup.
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quote: I want to counter the notion that pumps are a necessary part of breastfeeding. This is one of my pet peeves. The pump companies make moms think they have to have a pump to breastfeed. I get calls all the time from mothers who are planning to breastfeed and think they need a pump right away.
Oh I agree. Pumps can be helpful; however, they're very evil. Very evil indeed.
I had to be hospitalized for Kidney Stones a week after my second son was born. I was so lucky , I got to go to a hospital that didn't have a maternity ward. I was stuffed into a room on the Infectious Disease floor. I didn't want my son anywhere near that floor. They had to import a pump from another hospital. By the time the pump made it to my room I was a mess , again I'll skip the details. The pump was more painful than actually nursing with an infection at this point. Am I grossing anyone out yet?
So okay...they may be necessary, yet they are still evil.
Oh..and on the pain issue. I personally found nursing during the first few weeks painful. I've talked to many other mothers who had no problem what so ever. Just my luck.
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As you said, Tammy, you haven't read the whole thread.
Breastfeeding shouldn't be painful. If it is, a La Leche League Leader or lactation consultant should be contacted for assistance in working through what is causing the pain and how to solve the problem. Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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Yeah I know. That's totally fine. Honestly, I'm tend to be quite a bit that way myself. It just doesn't shock or embarass me the way breastfeeding pretty most always does, and even if a woman's reaction wasn't qite so strong, it's hard for me to understand why it would be enough to react verbally over it. Again though, maybe I lack perspective here.
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Oh, and Tammy, I wouldn't say the pump was necessarily evil, in your case. I am sure you would have had a lot fewer problems if they had gotten it to you in a more timely manner. Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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The only part I really don't "get," is the advice on age of weaning. I understand that the intent is for the mother and child to make the decision and no-one else.
But, what if the mother wants to stop and the child doesn't? Or vice versa (although I suppose that forcing a child to nurse would be difficult, hmm...).
I just think that answer is too simplistic in that it doesn't really give a person the rubric they're looking for. I know that LLL wouldn't want to give a rule of thumb, but I mean really, is there NO POINT beyond which you personally would say "um, wean that kid already."?
Would it be okay for an 8-year-old to nurse?
A 12 year old?
I mean, I'd be worried about psychological problems at that point. Over-dependence on mommy, perhaps a controlling mother...and definitely some strange psychosexual development.
anyway, thanks for the answers. I knew I could count on you! Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Ela, I did consult a lactation consultant. Initially I was having a problem with breast pads. I switched from cloth to disposable. I believe certain factors having to do with my inexperience contributed to my pain.
I see where you're coming from. I'm calling pain and extreme tenderness the same thing.
The pain I experienced the first time was not normal. The extreme tenderness I experienced with Arik and Aubree' was completely different. I'm sure every new mother experiences different degrees of tenderness.
edited to add - I personally think pumps can be very evil.
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Amen, Ela! This whole thread gives me hope. What a wonderful source of encouragement and inspiration!
Nathan and I really struggled. He was critically ill to begin with and then had a suck/swallow disorder - couldn't even take a bottle let alone a nipple, and once those issues were straightened out with the lactationist and we had learned to latch on, he became critically ill again and was in PICU for two weeks and regular hospital for another being tubefed. I pumped all the way through - and that was a miserable, painful experience. I remember chanting to him, "You keep breathing, I'll keep pumping" through the pain.
I consequently had absolutely no patience for people's ctiticisms and complaints about breastfeeding. My best answers to them generally included rather barbed humor, my worst included telling them where to get off and mind their own business. My family were horrendous about the whole thing and not supportive or helpful at all. Of course, given my stubborn natue, it was probably as well they pissed me off because I needed the energy. Nathan was so traumatized by his hospitalizations that our sleeping patterns for the first year included essentially 20-minute catnaps. I left him exactly once for four hours and he literally shrieked the entire time.
I do remember the doctor telling me that it was a good thing he was getting breastmilk since he was able to receive so little nourishment anyway. And the lactationist reassuring me that the milk was fine and that I was making enough to feed twins.(He was hooked up to so many machines - you couldn't even see his face.) At three months of age he did not look much bigger than he did at one month. And at one month he was just under 10 lbs.
I am happy to report, however, (despite some on-going medical problems which have thankfully been decreasing) that he is overall a very sturdy, happy boy.
I asked our pediatrician the same thing. Most women are encouraged to breast feed as long as possible, expecially the first 6 months. At this point, there is a regional difference of opinion. In the US, many women may stop breast feeding. I am told that European women keep breast feeding and ONLY breast feed for the first year. American women are encouraged to start introducing foods after 6 months, usually around 8-9 months of age. There are accounts of women starting foods as early as 2 weeks, but I do not encourage this since it can increase the liklihood of food allergies.
But the point being, to breast feed after one year is strictly optional by the mother, but certainly not biologically harmful. After all, Vitamin D whole milk (recommended until age 2) is designed for baby cows, but baby humans, but it works. Posts: 1870 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:But, what if the mother wants to stop and the child doesn't? Or vice versa (although I suppose that forcing a child to nurse would be difficult, hmm...).
If a mother wants or needs to stop before the baby wants to, there are ways of gradually weaning the baby, by substituting a bottle (or food, for an older child) for a nursing, waiting a day or two till the milk supply adjusts, then substituting a bottle for another nursing. Stopping "cold turkey" is upsetting to the child and painful for the mom.
Not only is it difficult to force a child to nurse, it's just not possible. You can't make a child, even an infant, go through the sucking motions needed to extract the milk from the breast if the baby doesn't want to do it.
quote:I just think that answer is too simplistic in that it doesn't really give a person the rubric they're looking for. I know that LLL wouldn't want to give a rule of thumb, but I mean really, is there NO POINT beyond which you personally would say "um, wean that kid already."?
Would it be okay for an 8-year-old to nurse?
A 12 year old?
I mean, I'd be worried about psychological problems at that point. Over-dependence on mommy, perhaps a controlling mother...and definitely some strange psychosexual development.
Seriously, I have never known a 12-year-old to breastfeed. Even an 8-year-old is very uncommon. I have known a few mothers who breastfed a child till age 7, though, and the children in question suffered no ill effects from that.
You have to realize that an older child who nurses is not nursing like an infant. Often, even in a toddler, it may be only a few times a day. An older child may nurse only at bedtime, or when upset, for comfort reasons.
I have heard the pyschological objections about breastfeeding older children, and I frankly don't buy them. That's adult thinking imposed on a child's brain. The child doesn't think of breastfeeding and breasts sexually the way an adult does. As I said before, you can't force a child to nurse.
And what do you define as "over-dependence on the mommy"? Children are dependent on their parents, whether they are breastfeeding or not. Some are more dependent, and just have more needs, then others. I have found that if you fulfill a child's needs when they are young, they grow up into independent, self-confident adults - it seems to be working with my kids, so far. And I have seen it work with the kids of many other parents I have met through La Leche League and other parenting and breastfeeding networks.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:I see where you're coming from. I'm calling pain and extreme tenderness the same thing.
The pain I experienced the first time was not normal. The extreme tenderness I experienced with Arik and Aubree' was completely different. I'm sure every new mother experiences different degrees of tenderness.
Thanks for the clarification, Tammy. You are right, some tenderness at first is normal. But for excruciating pain, get help.
Shan, wow, you really went through a lot. I commend you for your perseverance. Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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I also wanted to say the accounts shared by everyone were very informative and that this thread is turning into a Baby Survival Guide, and that is GOOD.
I also liked Bob's other irritating issues that bug him more than breastfeeding in public. I would also like to summarize that even if I were uncomfortable, (and I am not) I agree with Sun that I would deal with it in my own way.
I do not believe it was said earlier, but I think the man that complained about you breastfeeding was out of line. Even if he did not feel comfortable with your actions, he should have shut up. If I were there, I too would have defended your ability to breastfeed your baby. Ironically, his nerve to even initiate such a complaint is infinitely more aggravating than anything else in this example. So in essence, this guy pissed me off. I was mad for you too Boon.
Posts: 1870 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Okay, I'm imposing my adult opinions on the mind of a child. But how would you ever decide that a 7 year old NEEDS to nurse -- i.e., that this need is normal and not an indication of something to worry about? And that nursing is the RIGHT way to meet whatever need you've identified?
And I wouldn't necessarily think there's a sexual connotation if a 7 year old is nursing for comfort or at bedtime.
But really, is there no other way to comfort a 7 year old child than letting it nurse?
I imagine the father might feel a bit undervalued in that relationship too.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Okay, I'm imposing my adult opinions on the mind of a child. But how would you ever decide that a 7 year old NEEDS to nurse -- i.e., that this need is normal and not an indication of something to worry about? And that nursing is the RIGHT way to meet whatever need you've identified?
And I wouldn't necessarily think there's a sexual connotation if a 7 year old is nursing for comfort or at bedtime.
But really, is there no other way to comfort a 7 year old child than letting it nurse?
I imagine the father might feel a bit undervalued in that relationship too.
Bob, I doubt I could give you an answer that would satisfy you.
I have never nursed a 7-year-old, so I can't speak from personal experience.
The fathers of the nursing 7-year-olds that I have known did not feel devalued, either, any more than a father would feel devalued by any other attention a mother is giving a child.
In the cases I am aware of in which a child nursed to age 7, the parents were practicing "child-led weaning." In other words, they let the child decide when to stop. I can't tell you what the particular factors were that led to the decision to do that in each and every case. All I can tell you is, I know the families, and the children, and they are happy and well-adjusted, and functioning well (some are adults already).
[ June 27, 2004, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
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My personal feeling beforehand was that I very much wanted my kids to nurse at least a year (there is a family history of allergies, among other reasons), and was willing to nurse to age 2. If I'd had a kid who was ill or really seemed to need to nurse, I probably would have gone to age 4.
Child number one showed less and less interest in nursing at about 13 months, and I could easily have weaned her -- but I was taking her with me to NY a month later, and did NOT want to have an infant on an airplane who I could not comfort by nursing. So I encouraged her to continue nursing, and she did, although with less enthusiasm. (She had never been the most vigorous nurser. My mother referred to her as a gourmet. suck, suck, pause "Hmm, what is that flavor?" suck "Yes, yes, I think it might be--" suck "--yes, it is!" etc.) But it really came in handy both on the plane and several times on the trip, trying to comfort her in a strange place. Nursed her on the plane ride home, and then never again.
Child number two, at age 17 months, not only showed no diminished interest, but was wanting to nurse more often. I made jokes to friends about nursing him at his wedding. At 18 months, about the same. Shortly after that, he simply gradually weaned himself. When offered the breast a week later, he gave me a look like, "You want me to do WHAT? Get that thing away from me!"
Child number three was harder. Like the second, she had no interest in weaning at 17 or 18 months. I, however, did. When at 20 months she still had no interest in stopping, I gradually weaned her.
I have friends who: never breastfed; tried but were unsuccessful (in one case, was actually told by a lactation consultant after she tried to nurse two babies unsuccessfully that she seemed to be that rare woman with insufficient glandular tissue); breastfed for: 6 weeks, 6 months, a year, 2-3 years, 4.5 years. Know what all have in common? A mom and baby who did what worked best for them, and are happy and healthy.
As far as pumps go, bad, low-suction pumps (hand or electric) are EVIL. Good, properly adjustable ones, are very useful if you need to leave your baby at home for part or all of the day.
My mom always hand-expressed. I tried, repeatedly. I never got the hang of it. I would end up with a little in the container, and the rest making me sticky. Bleh.
I did have one hand pump that was not bad. The kind made with two interlocking tubes that pull apart? Ela will know what it's called. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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It does squick me out though. I have to admit that.
And I'm probably not going to change my attitudes even if I met these happy, well-adjusted people. I'd just assume that they were happy and well adjusted despite their parent's best efforts.
It's my bias and prejudice, not theirs. I admit it. I don't understand. And I don't want to.
I'd rather have a child that is NOT well adjusted. Just like everyone else.
posted
Sorry, Bob. I actually wasn't trying to lecture. It took me years to stop pushing friends who chose not to nurse, or weaned early.
I come by it naturally, though. My grandmother nursed her daughters at a time when almost no one did -- when even the pediatrician was sure the baby couldn't be getting enough (and actually convinced her to supplement with the oldest). I come from a line of stubborn women. Who'ld'a thunk? Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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My mother was bottle fed (during that era when breastfeeding was frowned upon) and to this day she blames her weight struggles on that!
Sun, I know I am uncomfortable changing into a bathing suit around other women or them doing the same. I don't know how many feel that way or what it might or might not have to do with bisexuality.
But.... I think that men in general are more accustomed to having their privates exposed around other boys. It seems in general in our culture that a girl's privacy among same-gender is more valued than male's privacy among same-gender. I have random thoughts and theories on why that may be, but I don't really know.
Personally, I think it would be a good thing for men to have more privacy from same-gender. Private urinal stalls, private showers, etc. I suppose it is just a way to save money and everyone assumes the guys don't care.
I remember in my college dorm the girl's showers were semi-private (separated by a curtain, but to get to the back shower you have to walk through the front shower) but the guys had no privacy at all. I remember discussing this with the men and their indignance at the difference. They *all* expressed a desire for more privacy and were ticked off that we had it and they didn't.
They were also ticked off that all the women's bathrooms had a quiet, dark room with a couch or two for women to lay on who were in pain from PMS or whatnot (other female reproductive-related issues). I know I used them multiple times with *good* reason. (ouchie!) But they were ticked off nonetheless.
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Bob, I could add very little to Ela's eloquent answers. One thing I want to say is that between amother who bottle feeds on demand, and a parent who breastfeeds on a schedule, the bottle fed child will IMO have better self esteem. I think the attitude brought into it is so important.
There are other physical benefits of breastfeeding for mothers, the major one being reduced rates of breast cancer.
The oldest child I have ever met who was still nursing was 5. I have seen that the children that seem to need nursing longer, tend to have food allergies. My daughter was a prime example. She could tolerate NOTHING but breastmilk until 11 months ( she would projectile vomit) and would not take a bottle. (You'd think I would have lost weight then , especially as she had persistent thrush and I couldn't have sweets, but no, I gained a ton). My youngest is staring down his second birthday and I am cutting down his nursing, not really looking to fully wean in the next month or so but using distraction to make the timing better for me, and less often.
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Bob, I could add very little to Ela's eloquent answers. One thing I want to say is that between amother who bottle feeds on demand, and a parent who breastfeeds on a schedule, the bottle fed child will IMO have better self esteem. I think the attitude brought into it is so important.
There are other physical benefits of breastfeeding for mothers, the major one being reduced rates of breast cancer.
The oldest child I have ever met who was still nursing was 5. I have seen that the children that seem to need nursing longer, tend to have food allergies. My daughter was a prime example. She could tolerate NOTHING but breastmilk until 11 months ( she would projectile vomit) and would not take a bottle. (You'd think I would have lost weight then , especially as she had persistent thrush and I couldn't have sweets, but no, I gained a ton). My youngest is staring down his second birthday and I am cutting down his nursing, not really looking to fully wean in the next month or so but using distraction to make the timing better for me, and less often.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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If I don't know the woman, my response is similar to Icarus's, but if I do know her, then I'm totally comfortable with it.
Here's something different: being asked to comment on someone's nipple piercings. I've had it happen a couple times that I'll be with a group of folks and someone will be wanting to show off their new piercing... and since in my case I think any kind of piercing (even earrings) are an act of bodily mutilation I've had to stay "cool" and not wince and ask why the hell someone would want to do that to themselves... eep...
(One of the woman who'd gotten pierced went on to have a kid and breastfeed a few years later. She got rid of her piercings fast!!)
quote: I was told with the last baby that I might have a yeast infection on the breasts that might be irritating my skin. I was given a prescription for some little concoction called "newman ointment" or something that was sooooo nice! Like putting water on the fire. It was even better than Lansinoh. It really made me wonder if I had had a yeast infection the last two times also! Something to keep in mind.
May have been my problem, since my son was plagued with thrush for at least the first six months. I wish I had known earlier that it was caused by yeast.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Thrush is a yeast infection. It's not uncommon for babies to get it in their mouths, where it can appear as white patches. If the mother gets it on her breasts, it can lead to itchy and/or painful nipples.
It's not uncommon to get thrush following antibiotic use, and is also common in people with compromised immune systems.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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Okay, I vow to shut up (after this rather long and unapologetic post) until I've actually lived through the breastfeeding years with a child of my own. I figure Dana can make the decision as to how long to go until weaning. And I do realize that every child is different.
I was involved in "Big Brother/Big Sister" when I was teenager. My little brother was a great kid. Very well adjusted. He had no fear. We hiked and biked and had a great time.
One of the girls in the group had a little sister who was afraid of her own shadow. Later on, we found out that the counselors who ran the program were really at a loss as to what to do about it because the girl should've been screened out (i.e., you don't really want a troubled child assigned to a sixteen year old...). But anyway, I can certainly understand how a child might be 7 or 8 and still have serious need of basic comforting. I do think nursing at that age is a bit abnormal and I would at least worry, if not actually insist on some counseling if there were other aspects of the kid's behavior that indicated more than just a need for comfort at that age.
But then, I'm not a professional child psychologist. I just remember thinking that this little girl was not quite right. Forcing her to "participate" in group activities was not the right approach either -- pretty obviously. She would freeze up and need her mother RIGHT THEN.
Anyway, that's the only experience I have with it, so I'm not really relating to what you're talking about with a kid who is 7 years old and truly NEEDS to nurse. I picture this frightened little girl. I wonder if she turned out okay. I wonder what in her life caused her to be so frightened. I wonder if maybe she was just built that way. I have no clue.
And I'm sure you aren't really talking about a kid like that when you say you've known kids that needed to nurse at night at age seven. But then, I'm not sure what kind of kid that would be. I haven't experienced it, so I'm not saying it's wrong. I just don't get it.
And if I do have a child with that need, it sort of worries me that I might not recognize it.
I still remember the day that my father decided I should give up my favorite stuffed animal. I've resented that act (he threw it away!!!) ever since. Now, I also turned out well adjusted and happy and I loved my father and haven't really focussed my life on my parent's shortcomings. So maybe he did the right thing? Or maybe I would've turned out even MORE well adjusted and happy if he'd let me keep my stuffed lion for another few months and given it up on my own. I don't know. Never will know.
I think kids are probably a lot more resilient than we tend to think. And probably weaning a kid whether they want to be weaned or not is not that bad for them. I can see situations where the kid could become the target of other kids at school if they found out he or she was still suckling at age 7. I can imagine that would end up being a powerful incentive to stop the behavior too.
I guess I really don't have much to add here. I'm just rambling. The bottom line is that parents MUST decide what is best for their children. And most kids do seem to turn out okay even when the parents don't do whatever the current "best advice" tells them.
Or maybe everyone is about equally screwed up, so it's not really noticeable until a person turns into a serial killer or a talk show host.
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By the way, Ela, you really are eloquent and I appreciate your willingness to share your expertise here.
And rivka, I didn't really think you were lecturing. I just figure y'all were going to get impatient with me pretty soon because I have this mental block about breastfeeding toddlers on up. But it's not your problem. And it's probably something I will have to live through before I really get it. I'm just not that good at understanding stuff like this unless I experience it.
I have a friend who has a VERY SENSITIVE child, for example. He can't let him read Ender's Game because the kid would "freak out." I think the boy is 10 now. And I know my friend and his wife are GREAT parents, so it's not like I don't think they are doing the right thing. I just don't get it. And no amount of words on a BB are going to get me there. Maybe five minutes alone with the kid and and I'd figure it out. But reading about it in the abstract is just not doing it for me.
Of course, I would never say anything insensitive to the parents. But I know myself well enough to realize I would be worried about the kid anyway.
If I wasn't so out of shape and nearsighted, I might've made a very good Spartan.
Hmm...gotta work on that...
I want my stuffed lion back!!! Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Bob, maybe "need" is the wrong word to use when talking about longterm breastfeeding. The child you describe in the Big Brother/Big Sister program sounds as though she was in a program that just didn't fit her needs. I don't really think that has anything to do with the reasons that parents chose to let older children nurse.
Nursing is a relationship between the mother and child, and weaning is a process that begins the first time the child receives a food that is not his mother's milk. Some parents just decide to be relaxed and let the child decide when it's time to quit. In most cases that I have seen, it isn't a pressing "need" of the type you describe that causes a parent to let the child continue breastfeeding. As romanylass mentioned above, sometimes it is allergies that prompts a mother to allow longterm breastfeeding to continue.
It's not that the child "can't" stop - if the mother really wants the child to wean, she can encourage weaning or make an agreement with the child about when to stop.
Weaning by mutula agreement is what I did with my daughter, who nursed till age 4 1/2. First we decided to stop at Thanksgiving; she told me it was "too soon" so we revised the stop date to Chanukah, at which time she did stop. My son nursed for 3 yrs, and I encouraged him to wean because I was nervous about a medication I was on at the time. You have met both my kids, spent the weekend with them, even. Maybe that will help give you a new perspective on longterm nursing.
Parenting is tough, but, fortunatley, children are very resilient. We all make mistakes and have made decisions or treated our children, at times, in ways we wish we could undo, or take back. I have tried to be sensitive to my children's needs, but I am sure there are things they remember, like your teddy bear being taken away, that they resent. Fortunately, I think they recognize that their father and I love them and are trying to do the best we can for them. There is love and respect between us and our children, even as there is sometimes eyerolling over certain individual acts or events.
Some kids are sensitive, Bob, and parents who are paying attention learn to know their children's needs. I am sure you will do, when you are fortunate enough to become a father. Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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romanylass, I have no idea what brand it was -- I meant that particular style of pump (not bicycle, not trigger). I bought mine second-hand (yes, I sterilized it), and it was great. Didn't take the place of my electric pump when I was gone for the day, but good for when I just needed a couple ounces for the baby's cereal, or for backup when I didn't have the electric pump with me.
Actually, Bob, while in theory I have no problem with kids nursing to age 4 (or older, even), I would be uncomfortable doing so myself. I've had lots of friends do it, but when it gets to be near the end of that second year, even though I love nursing my kids, and cannot imagine NOT breastfeeding a child (short of medical necessity), I get tired.
But that's me, and it's something that I did wrestle with when dealing with child number three (it wasn't really an issue with the other two). So I do see where you're coming from.
And I'm so sorry about your lion. (((((Bob))))) My ex, who was bottle-fed, tells a story about his third birthday. He had made a deal with his mom that he would give up bottles on his birthday -- months before, when it was a loooong time away. And he came downstairs that morning, knowing that there would not be a warm bottle waiting for him to snuggle in his favorite chair with. There wasn't. So he just kinda sat in the chair, a bit forlorn.
Interesting that he still strongly remembers this, while my brother, who made a deal with my mom that he'd be weaned by three (as well as start using real words and the toilet), weaned with no real trauma a few weeks early, and has no memory of it now. *shrug*
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I don't understand... Why would it be best to take the kid's favourite stuffed animal away? I wonder whatever happened to mine. Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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You know what I really hate. People who give their infants sugar water. Everyone I know who does this has kids with completely rotted teeth. Toddlers without a tooth in their mouth! Seriously, what is wrong with people?
Anyway, I've decided I have no problem with women breastfeeding in public. Especially if they are consenting adults. And they let me watch.
Men breastfeeding in public, however, really does squick me out. I know, it's my problem and I should just get over it, but I can't.
Anyway, I've held off on those jokes for over 3 pages, so I hope you don't mind.
I think the guy in Boon's original post was a jerk and we should smack him upside the head and call him names.
I will let my kids keep their stuffed animals for as long as they want to.
I hope my little ones are weaned and potty-trained by age two, but I'm not going to stress out over it or give them a complex if they don't make it. If they aren't weaned by the time they are teenagers, I'm putting my foot down.
If I still have control over my extremities.
And I remember to be upset about this.
At the very least, they'd better be willing to share.
by the way, does breast milk taste good? It sounds rather revolting -- warm milk...blech...
quote:I hope my little ones are weaned and potty-trained by age two
Just for the record, Bob, potty-trained by age 2 is a bit early. Many kids are just not physiologically ready til 2 1/2. And keep in mind the disadvantage of a potty-trained 2 year old - you have to know where all the bathrooms are and find them fast, cause a toddler can't hold it and doesn't know he has to go till he REALLY has to go.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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Yozhik, I disagree. He may be -- but since neither you nor I have actually met him or his mom, I don't think we get to make that decision.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I don't get why they had to report her to the authorities... There are people who do a lot worse who don't even get a slap on the wrist... And who cares if a kid wants to carry around a blanket? What do they mean by mature ways of comforting themselves anyway?
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Critics have said Stuckey is really serving her own needs, not Kyle's, and should find other ways to reassure her son.
Stuckey says that's not the case at all.
"You don't nurse to serve your own needs when you've got a small child clawing at you because he's so upset and wants to nurse," she said today. "It's not about your needs, it's about putting your child first."
Sorry, but that's a load of crap. I don't know enough to make a judgment as to where one ought to draw the line at breastfeeding, but at least the way she's explaining herself here, she's full of it. Her son is eight. We aren't talking about a "small child" anymore, unless she still thinks of him that way, in which case the fact that he's "clawing at you because he's so upset" at age eight indicates some issues of concern, and imhyesco allowing him to nurse in that case is not a solution. It's parenting on credit, and she or someone else is gonna have to pay it back with interest.
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*finds large barrel, hides till next day* ![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
breast feeding is for girls, anyway. Literally. Speaking of which, on the subject of women, why would a woman who is not a nutsy radical anti-breastfeeding feminist and not a lesbian who has been in a women's locker room find another woman's breast feeding in public disturbing? I don't get it in a does not compute, brain overload, kind of way. *Self destruct* Well this would go along with my theory tht all women are bi-sexual, but I'm afraid that's hardly a very scientific theory ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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, I got to go to a hospital that didn't have a maternity ward. I was stuffed into a room on the Infectious Disease floor. I didn't want my son anywhere near that floor. They had to import a pump from another hospital. By the time the pump made it to my room I was a mess , again I'll skip the details. The pump was more painful than actually nursing with an infection at this point. Am I grossing anyone out yet? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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